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Thread: Advice needed - cell technical/legal

  1. #1
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    Default Advice needed - cell technical/legal

    Hi guys.

    Ok the short version is I have a pending court case in which I am sueing someone. This person was a used vehicle broker and basically took my 4x4 and i never saw the money. I eventually reported it stolen and when they hauled the person in it was only then when I found out the location of the 4x4 (in pieces and blown engine...). The criminal proceedings i instigated never secured a conviction as its very hard to prove intent to steal.

    So I started civil proceedings to recover the monetry value of the vehicle i have lost.

    I have crucual evidence in the form of sms's from this persons contract number where they told me car was sold, money had been deposited etc etc etc.

    My question is this:
    1)How do I certify that the sms's that are still on my simm card are real? Would we have to call a expert witness to say they cant be fiddled?

    2) Is it possible to even 'send' yourself sms's and make them appear from a certain muber/time/date etc?

    3) Would Vodacom keep records of sms's?

    Any advice would be appreciated as this seems its going to be a test case for the inclusion of sms's as evidence.

    Thanks
    "We live in a monetary paradigm that demands infinite growth, so balance is not possible." Michael C. Ruppert

  2. #2

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    1) Yes, get a vodacom representative to appear if possible
    2) It is possible to clone his number and then send yourself these sms'es, but it's very difficult
    3) Vodacom has huge amount of sms'es going through their servers, BUT he is a contract user, which means he has to have CLI and Itemised Billing. And sms'es (on MTN at least) appear on the itemised billing statement, with date sent, number, and what time he sent it at. If you could collaborate the time you received the sms, with the time on his statement, you can prove that he sent them. Also try disprove the idea that you're technically able to clone his sim card and call into evidence the criminal proceedings you tried put against him claiming that you tried everything in your power to get your money and/or your 4x4 but the person didn't want to budge or whatever.

  3. #3
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    To clone a simm card wouldnt I need access to it?
    "We live in a monetary paradigm that demands infinite growth, so balance is not possible." Michael C. Ruppert

  4. #4

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    If it were sent from a contract sim card they'd certainly have a record of the sms's

  5. #5

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    Don't think they keep the actual sms though...i am sure they purge these rather quickly...Only time etc needed for the billing engine would be stored.

  6. #6

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    As far as I know Vodacom and MTN tech folks have appeared in a number of criminal cases and presented evidence that included the text of SMS messages. They can even tell where the phone was when the message was sent. For a civil matter it may require a court order of some kind to get it.

    If this person has money, he would be sensible to settle out of court in light of the fact that you have proof of the text he sent you.

    Get yourself a decent lawyer!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by asmith
    Get yourself a decent lawyer!
    a good idea

    without much info to go on you would have to find the right person at Voda - as mentioned they deal with these kinds of requests fairly regularly so this should not be too difficult

    this person may help you with process but it seems you will have to issue out something called a subpoena duces tecum - which basically orders the person to come to court under threat of punishment and to bring all documents relevant to the matter with them

    if you don't have a lawyer or one who understand the issues the Voda person will know the drill in terms of how to present the evidence in court in such a way that the court feels it can rely on it - courts will lean very heavily on what the expert says
    ---quantumplation---

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by dominic
    a good idea

    without much info to go on you would have to find the right person at Voda - as mentioned they deal with these kinds of requests fairly regularly so this should not be too difficult

    this person may help you with process but it seems you will have to issue out something called a subpoena duces tecum - which basically orders the person to come to court under threat of punishment and to bring all documents relevant to the matter with them

    if you don't have a lawyer or one who understand the issues the Voda person will know the drill in terms of how to present the evidence in court in such a way that the court feels it can rely on it - courts will lean very heavily on what the expert says
    http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_i...742&newslett=1

    an example of how even different sim cards can be linked to an actual phone!
    Forget Health Food .... I'm at the age when I need all the preservatives I can get!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Padded Mouse
    http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_i...742&newslett=1

    an example of how even different sim cards can be linked to an actual phone!
    from the bottom of that article

    "Previous evidence also indicated that the other 072 number had been used in the same Nokia 3510i handset to send SMSes to Wilson from July 23 last year until August 9.

    The state alleges that Rodrigues had sent Wilson SMSes of a threatening nature during this period for which she had been charged with intimidation.
    ...
    During cross-examination, Rodrigues's counsel John van der Berg asked Van Niekerk to confirm whether cellphone records showed the serial number of a handset from which an SMS had been sent.

    Van Niekerk said that this did not happen but added that the simcard details reflected SMSes sent and this could then be linked to the handset used for that simcard.

    On Wednesday the state is expected to call a witness from Nashua, who will testify about the identity of the person who had signed the contract."
    ---quantumplation---

  10. #10
    Forget Health Food .... I'm at the age when I need all the preservatives I can get!

  11. #11

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    Yeah the networks do keep records of smses as well as the actual smses, in case criminal activities do arise. Had a mate who was with MTN who said that they keep all records of smses and even voice activities in case such circumstances do arise. They don't however monitor people by spying on their smses and voice calls as this would be invasion of privacy, however should a lawsuit arise they are able to do so for legal purposes. Speak to somebody technically inclined at Voda and get a decent lawyer as pointed out above. For eg. speaking to somebody at the help desk or customer care wouldn't get you very far.
    Procrastination is like masturbation. It may feel good at first, but when you look at the task at hand, you're actually screwing yourself.

  12. #12
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    For the record. All SMSes are recorded and kept by the networks. All phone calls are logged in terms of timestamps, towers connected to/from, numbers connected to and durations - and in some instances they an record the voice data. All web/wap/gprs/etc sessions are also recorded

  13. #13
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    Thanks very much guys.

    I have a decent litigation laywer and we are working on the case (both legal teams doing discovery ATM)

    I posted here just to see if theres anything that weve missed etc. Im pretty thorough when it comes to things like this and dont always 'trust' the experts...

    I want to make sure that every possible angle is covered and my case is watertight.

    This person is a compulsive liar and im sure their legal team isnt being told the truth otherwise they would be obliged to advise their client not to go to trial.

    Trial date has been set but as often happens......an out of court settlement may still happen. Im just not settling for anything less than what Im sueing for plus costs.
    "We live in a monetary paradigm that demands infinite growth, so balance is not possible." Michael C. Ruppert

  14. #14

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    Try one Robin de Rook at capetown 021-4144731. He is a telkom dude that i guess would be able to even find the relevant sms for you

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  15. #15

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    @FRESHY My advice is to have a Notary Public (specialised attorney) transcribe (ie type out) the sms messages and certifiy the transcription as true and correct.

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