Article: SA considering rhino horn trade

[Albereth]

It's not comparable to rhino

Snip

That's typically what does happen.

Look. I am not sure that my response is going to add anything new. I think we have moved to the agree to disagree state.

[capd]

It's not comparable to rhino horn.


Same principle applies though. No-one claims rhino horn is as easy to produce or is going to be as cheap as alcohol.


It doesn't. We already effectively farm them in reserves.


Tranquilizing them and removing the horn is already something done by conservationists. And it grows back much faster than that.


Yes, it is expected that the horn will not be as cheap as rabbit pelts. The space issue is irrelevant. We have plenty in South Africa and it's not like they need less of it if we're not trading their horn.


That's typically what does happen.

Sir, do u have a blog site ?

Bcoz you should get one and make the world a better place

[burden]

Not the other way around?

The point is that in a broad sense goods do operate within the supply and demand laws. And thoise laws do describe what happens in principle. The reality is that a specific good may behave somewhat differently depending upon circumstances.
Other way around, my bad
I’m not quite sure if I understand? What circumstances? Did you mean that the laws of demand and supply won’t apply to rhino horns or that the demand and supply curve will be of differing elasticity’s? Because again, it wouldn’t matter because the market price of any good is set by demand and supply? Unless you meant something else?

Nope - it isn't absolutely scarce. But then neither is the Mona Lisa. After all is is merely a combination of canvas and pigments arranged in a somewhat interesting order. That some people find this order to be the point is also true of rhino. Some people see rhino for the animal rather than a source of horn.

I disagree. The original Mona Lisa is but of only one item in the world. In that sense it is unique, no matter how much you replicate it, it still isn’t the original by Leonardo da Vinci. Case in point: it was sold at $100 million in 1962, worth $768 million today’s dollar. A replica will never sell for that much. The same cannot be said however for rhino horns, however scarce they are because there are many of them (comparatively at least). One rhino horn on the planet however is a different story. In the end it doesn’t matter what some people perceive the value of the rhino horn as, because if they value it higher than the market price, it’s simply ‘consumer surplus’ which still apply to demand and supply.

As to the quantity. The number given is an estimate but nobody has put forward where that estimate comes from (and I really dont mean who said there is 20 tons). Just how much is going to be raised from this sale of horn and who gets the money? If the government sells its 'stock' where does the money go? And the private individual?

Who knows? Maybe it’s a lot less or a lot more, the point is we should release it to stop the poachers no? A significant amount will be raised that is for sure. I can imagine it goes under export revenue the same place our revenue from gold goes to. Some of this money can go into to public spending on roads, development or funding more schools. Maybe it’s even pocketed by corrupt officials; in the end a few hundred rhinos were saved in just one year. Isn’t that worth it to you?

Of course. Making something illegal will raise the price. Making something legal does not necessarily mean that it will become cheaper - it creates the opportunity for greater profit. Using the example of prohibition is fine but the barriers to entry wrt manufacturing alcohol are relatively low. Not so with rhino horn.

You have a fair point regarding barriers to entry. But the thing about barriers to entry is that it is a once off cost. Once you have entered the market you no longer incur them. With regards to rhino horns, it will be cheaper since the price was more expensive because of the illegality in the first place. And releasing stock piled rhino horns to the market have very little barriers to entry if any at all. The only costs would probably the cost to transport them?

We'll farm the rhino - interesting because that implies domestication and Africa will be down to the Big 4. Or do we really mean that we'll harvest the horns? Wait for them to drop off and we'll pick them up - well they don't do that. So tranqualise and chop off - so we're back to Africa without horned rhino. Oh, it grows back - if you removed it correctly, if the animal didn't die while you were doing so and then only at a rate of between 2.5 and 7.5 cm a year.

Rhino need a fair bit of space, don't breed like rabbits, and are expensive to acquire.

I mean, the Big 5 will always be the Big 5? You don’t have to domesticate rhinos, I doubt that’s even possible? Harvesting is a great idea but how will we know if they fell off? How do we find every rhino and pick it up? Farming the rhino doesn’t necessarily imply putting them in small spaces like a barn house but rather adapting it to its environment, protecting that environment and make them breed. A suggestion would be to set up an enclosed area large enough for x amount of rhino’s to be happy to live in. When fully grown or if they drop their horn we could harvest or farm it since we know where they are: in a controlled environment, a farm. I wouldn’t worry too much about poachers at this point since it should be legalised if this happens. With no incentive to poach, the government meeting overseas demand receiving income, the rhino is kept alive (dehorning without killing) how is this not a win-win?
Also if you are worried about the face of our Big 5 as wildlife in the wild and not a farm, the assumption is we won’t catch every single rhino, just enough to start a breeding and harvesting/dehorning program. But setting up rhino farms is costly. That’s where our twenty-ton supply comes in handy.

But assuming that education were possible - who pays for it? Because that cost goes to the supply column, not the demand column.
I have always understood why some people believe that legalising horn will increase the supply, that increased supply should lead to a decrease in price and that in turn leaves less margin for those slaughtering the rhino. Where I disagree is that the assumptions around this are valid.
Hopefully that was coherent but I need to do some other stuff.

We could? This is where our revenue from selling rhino horns could come in handy again. Another is that over time demand for rhino horns should drop. The trend being it is apparent that it doesn’t work. Maybe the demand won’t drop, maybe it will increase. The point is that making it illegal doesn’t help, nor does not doing anything about it except give criminal’s incentive. If we had farms we could match increases in demand, likewise if demand drops over time we no longer need the farms.

I agree, we covered enough. If this doesn't convince you I don't know what will

[DJ...]

Look. I am not sure that my response is going to add anything new. I think we have moved to the agree to disagree state.

Agreeing to disagree would require you rejecting the crux of the disagreements, which have been pretty thorough. Is that what's happening here?

[Albereth]

Agreeing to disagree would require you rejecting the crux of the disagreements, which have been pretty thorough. Is that what's happening here?

Nope. The discussion was becoming way too unpleasant.

[DJ...]

Unpleasant as it may have been, some people spent some considerable effort in civilly pointing out the downfall of your arguments. You surely can't discount these on the basis that some people offended you...?

[Albereth]

Unpleasant as it may have been, some people spent some considerable effort in civilly pointing out the downfall of your arguments. You surely can't discount these on the basis that some people offended you...?

Not at all. It isn't that I alone was being offended. I was dishing it out too. And that was becoming counter productive.

[DJ...]

Not at all.

So we can agree that there is merit to their arguments, specifically those based on economic principles...?

I stayed out of the argument because, well, I know you have some economic understanding and just assumed you were being obtuse to back up your POV. Economically one really doesn't have a leg to stand on in this respect...

[Albereth]

So we can agree that there is merit to their arguments, specifically those based on economic principles...?

I stayed out of the argument because, well, I know you have some economic understanding and just assumed you were being obtuse to back up your POV. Economically one really doesn't have a leg to stand on in this respect...

I have not said that certain commodities do not follow economic principles so in that sense we can all agree to the merit of their arguments. What I have said is that certain other commodities do not follow the economic models in an as predictable manner as the underlying assumptions are not true equally for all commodities.

Models, including economic ones, have the grand caveat of 'all things being equal'.

And when it comes to rhino horn, I do not believe that all things are equal at all.

[DJ...]

As was already pointed out, the models apply in general regardless of all things not being equal.

So do you still believe that there is no economic argument to this?

[Albereth]

As was already pointed out, the models apply in general regardless of all things not being equal.

So do you still believe that there is no economic argument to this?

Why are you persisting in asking if I still believe something? Or, in this case, that I don't believe? Models do not model everything.

So you are not going to get the answer you want from me regarding rhino horn. By the same token, whether you think that I have a point or not is not going to affect my life in the least (apart from the time spent responding).

I understand economics well enough. And I understand models well enough too. And if you really want to get down to it, I know the difference between laws and theory fairly okay too.

[DJ...]

I think you're taking this a little personally. LOL. I've been watching on the outskirts and decided to pitch in considering it appears the back and forth seems to have come to a deadlock.

Anyways, you're right. Your opinion won't change anything, but I just thought it was interesting to hear from someone else's point of view. Ah well...

[Albereth]

Apologies if I sounded like it was personal. I think we had sort of come to a truce so was possibly questioning your motives too robustly. But at least you though I was interesting

[DJ...]

You support The Sharks so sometimes I give you the benefit of the doubt.

[Albereth]

You support The Sharks so sometimes I give you the benefit of the doubt.