Original Sin

[Elimentals]

Or perhaps it was just talking about water ?

Not according to them, and I must say if you read it with their translations/replacements it makes a hell of a lot more sense than some of the other mambo jumbo some of the other people try and preach. I have seen denominations do some really crazy crap to try and make sense of it all I have to admit.

Also their view re Original sin = Everyone is guilty including children, but parents carry the burden till the child moves out of the house.

Problem comes with the people that did not hear the message and here comes the funny stuff, when people did not learn about Jesus when they where alive they say in spirit on earth till they do. (Its a lot harder to get converted as a spirit than flesh) and if you do not accept Jesus you will stay in the spirit form till "end of time" They also do not believe in a hell.

Edit: Oh crap, almost forgot the most important part for them: Jesus is not a person/entity, Jesus is the church.

[buyeye]

Not according to them, and I must say if you read it with their translations/replacements it makes a hell of a lot more sense than some of the other mambo jumbo some of the other people try and preach. I have seen denominations do some really crazy crap to try and make sense of it all I have to admit.

Also their view re Original sin = Everyone is guilty including children, but parents carry the burden till the child moves out of the house.

Problem comes with the people that did not hear the message and here comes the funny stuff, when people did not learn about Jesus when they where alive they say in spirit on earth till they do. (Its a lot harder to get converted as a spirit than flesh) and if you do not accept Jesus you will stay in the spirit form till "end of time" They also do not believe in a hell.

Edit: Oh crap, almost forgot the most important part for them: Jesus is not a person/entity, Jesus is the church.

I'm not sure how the ransom sacrifice fits in with that teaching.

[Elimentals]

I'm not sure how the ransom sacrifice fits in with that teaching.

When I see one again, I'll ask.... the moment they started talking about ghosts I left

[OrbitalDawn]

Religion should really be far simpler than we make it out to be -

The ONE Commandment: Don't be an arsehole.

What more do we need.

Makes me think of a piece out of Kurt Vonnegut's God Bless You, Mr. Rosewater:

Hello, babies. Welcome to Earth. It's hot in the summer and cold in the winter. It's round and wet and crowded. At the outside, babies, you've got about a hundred years here. There's only one rule that I know of, babies — "God damn it, you've got to be kind."

[Arthur]

According to catholics....

But I think ( again ) you are making it way too complicated.

Be a catholic, protestant, lutheran, jw, whatever, - live a good life, love and protect those close to you, do for others as you do for those closest to you, try and leave the world a little better'd for your presence.

On reflection that sounds like Buddhism

Well the one I originally came from only had one.

Love your neighbor as yourself and god above all else. <-- that was it, none of this hailmeries or baptized or must go to church crap all the others come up with.

What's complicated? These profound realities are also simple, but it's a simplicity that lies at the far end of complexity, just like all the rest of reality. It's a big mistake to think religion doesn't require any thinking - just like with science or any other knowledge, a kiddie catechism can take you only so far before the elementary simplicity collapses into absurdity. The more you look at it the more there is to unpack.

As to 'sounding like Buddhism', a gentle recap of what I said above:

No-one can enter the Kingdom apart from or separated from or in opposition to Christ. Christ alone is the only way in which supernatural life is infused into the human soul, because Christ is God, and no merely natural person can work their way into heaven by their own power alone. But Christ is very much more than just a man who lived 2000 years ago, or some local ANE guru. He is the Eternal Word, the Logos, the Centre, the Alpha Source and Omega Point, the very heart and meaning of not just the cosmos and all that exists, but of God himself in all eternity.

Christ is the essential all-important difference. Entry into the Kingdom is impossible unless one is empowered from above, as Christ himself said. He likened this to a new birth - the NT uses the Greek word anothen, which means 'born from above' or in some translations 'born anew'. It is the infusion of divine grace without which entry into the Kingdom is impossible.

[rwenzori]

It is the infusion of divine grace.

Such a pity it appears to have zero good effect on those so infused.

[Arthur]

Such a pity it appears to have zero good effect on those so infused.

The mysterium iniquitatem.

Zero effect is overstating it - read the lives of the saints, you will be astonished.

There's a maxim in theology: grace builds on nature. We are always free to act as we wish. The free will and human nature is not overridden or overwhelmed. The grace 'takes' only to the extent that we freely and willingly cooperate with it, much like you giving me money is a benefit only insofar as I actually spend it, otherwise it lies unused and useless.

[cyghost]

What's complicated? These profound realities are also simple, but it's a simplicity that lies at the far end of complexity, just like all the rest of reality. It's a big mistake to think religion doesn't require any thinking- just like with science or any other knowledge, a kiddie catechism can take you only so far before the elementary simplicity collapses into absurdity. The more you look at it the more there is to unpack.

So it is simple but complex. Gotcha. You know you speak a lot of words and manage to say very little really. That is a great skill preachers absolutely require. As to the highlighted above, ironically when I started thinking and questioning is when I started to break free from the shackles of religion....

Christ is the essential all-important difference.

And yet you say even atheists, buddhists or people who never knew Christ can get "in". Kinda redundant.

No-one can enter the Kingdom apart from or separated from or in opposition to Christ.

In many ways I oppose your Christ, "Turn the other cheek" and "Don't judge others" for instance are just plain stupid, dangerous and irresponsible. In other ways we are in agreement. But his whole "only through me" spiel he can stick up his ass. Deeply. As the creator of it all he ****ed us over so badly that if he had the misfortune to exist, I'd have to be in Satan's army on general principles.

Luckily that is all fairy tales people made up to make sense of it all and we who are free from such obvious bull**** can live our lives to the best of out abilities and strive to better ourselves and those around us. Life's short man, and there is enough **** as it is without creating moar for ourselves.

[Arthur]

Wow, cyghost. This religion thing really gets to you, eh. I did a quick search of your posts - one would think you're on a crusade (excuse the phrase).

You can mock me as much as you please - I probably deserve it anyway. I don't know you from a bar of soap, but if you've lived more than 30 or so winters even you must be able to make sense of a phrase like "simplicity on the far side of complexity". It's not my invention. It applies to almost anything you care to examine.

Why don't you just leave it alone, ignore loons like me, and get on with the rest of your life?

So you regard this God-thingie and religion as fairy tales. All I can say is (a) you obviously don't get fairy tales (not your fault), and (b) a self-existing cosmos with no ultimate meaning, truth or goodness is a rational absurdity. A magic FSM god is a nonsense, as you rightly realise. Time to chuck out the silly magic deity and start thinking from first principles.

[falcon786]

But that is so arbitrary - suddenly you get pubes and bum-fluff and you automatically lose your innocence simply because a certain amount of time has passed ?!

That can't be right.

Have you reached puberty yet?Well I'm pretty sure that even if you haven't you can understand this that if "nature" has deemed you mentally fit enough to produce kids by that age and take care of them then nature has dictated that this is the age of responsibility,but no daveza says nature is even wrong.

You know what dave you right hell lets make it 40 years old.

Moving on from this senseless argument now.....

[eehellfire]

Some of the books differ as well as some translations differ to the Christian bible also does not cover the folklore, like why the men wear inscribed amulets before circumcision.

Please explain regarding the amulets

[porchrat]

Have you reached puberty yet?Well I'm pretty sure that even if you haven't you can understand this that if "nature" has deemed you mentally fit enough to produce kids by that age and take care of them then nature has dictated that this is the age of responsibility,nut no daveza says nature is even wrong.

You know what dave you right hell lets make it 40 years old.

Moving on from this senseless argument now.....

If the human race has proven one thing it is that you definitely don't need to be mentally fit to have kids. Nature has deemed them physiologically/physically fit to have kids that I will give you.

[falcon786]

And what if puberty is delayed? Or brought about early? And how does one know fully that puberty has hit? As a male, one doesn't just wake up one day and go "oh right, it's started." Puberty seems a ridiculously arbitrary point at which to begin judging someone's actions...

You didn't know when you hit puberty?Seriously?

If its later or earlier then thats exactly the point we are all not equal and some people are ready mentally and physically sooner than others.

The hormones they do this to you

[daveza]

if "nature" has deemed you mentally fit enough to produce kids by that age and take care of them then nature has dictated that this is the age of responsibility

Since when does the age of responsibility by default become the age of loss of innocence / sinlessness ?

You don't even have to do something sinful - you just are ?!

[cyghost]

Wow, cyghost. This religion thing really gets to you, eh.

Sometimes.

I did a quick search of your posts - one would think you're on a crusade (excuse the phrase).

Only in opposition to you and people like you. You are excused. btw we have tangled before...

You can mock me as much as you please - I probably deserve it anyway.

I don't mock you, I mock your silly beliefs. And yes, they deserve it and more.

I don't know you from a bar of soap, but if you've lived more than 30 or so winters even you must be able to make sense of a phrase like "simplicity on the far side of complexity". It's not my invention. It applies to almost anything you care to examine.

Close to 40 so I am well aware how people play with words thank you very much. I don't much care for it. I prefer to speak clearly and straightforwardly.

Why don't you just leave it alone, ignore loons like me, and get on with the rest of your life?

Would if I could mate. Once you stop speaking out in public and your kind stop sticking its nose where it is not wanted or needed, I'd have little to say.

So you regard this God-thingie and religion as fairy tales. All I can say is (a) you obviously don't get fairy tales (not your fault), and (b) a self-existing cosmos with no ultimate meaning, truth or goodness is a rational absurdity. A magic FSM god is a nonsense, as you rightly realise. Time to chuck out the silly magic deity and start thinking from first principles.

a) Better than you do
b) Bull****

A FSM is as much nonsense as a three-in-one omnipotent, omnibenevelont, omnipresent being that created everything magically. Or in other words, you are doing first principles wrong. Which is no surprise really.