Baby circumcision ‘grievous bodily harm’

[HapticSimian]

the only problem is the guy comes across as biased, he doesn't like it and you can just tell from his choice of wording that he hates it. he hates seeing a baby screaming in pain, i hate to see my 2 year old in pain and asking me to make the pain stop when he has an infection. i agree that it shouldn't be compulsory, i agree that the benefits are minor and virtually none existent in adults and i agree that it's a terrible suggestion to prevent HIV.

what i feel is that growing up you go through a lot of stuff, and having your dad or mom help you clean your penis for the first 5 years isn't particularly enjoyable. everyone in this thread and at the age most people have their foreskin removed due to an infection is normally in their child/teenage years. you can't fault kids for not cleaning properly, but penis infections are bad. really bad. and it's up to the parents i feel, their child may never get an infection, and they dodged a bullet but nor circumcising him, they might circumcise him and then he grows up having to scrub less, who knows? i just feel it should be the parents choice, nobody elses. unless of course it is infected and it's the only solution, then it's the doctors too

The problem then becomes one of defining boundaries - might as well start with postnatal appendectomies and tonsillectomies. All in the interest of negating possible future complications and all.

To my mind the grounds for allowing parents to unilaterally make that decision are insufficient. It is a barbaric custom given a free pass because it's wrapped up in culture and religion. It's time humanity grows the **** up as far as I'm concerned.

[STS]

I don't recall many circumcise guys in school, maybe 2 in my class. If they can't wash their dicks what else aren't they washing? I do however recall some moms having their sons done after they got divorced in primary school because that's what they liked. I also know one woman that had her kid circumcised twice because they did not remove 'enough' skin the first time round, once again her own preference, she liked it cut and tight

I don't believe it's the parents choice, you are deciding about a persons body that has no say in the matter, whether you do it for hygiene or medical reasons.

You are also deciding where that child gets to live, what their beliefs will be, what language they will speak, what clothes they will wear, what food they will eat, what entertainment they'll be subjected to, etc etc. kids have no say for the first few years of their life, and i feel it's the parents responsibility to make the best decision they can for them until they can make their own decisions. anyone that is circumcised now will tell you that they are happier it was done when they were a child.

also, the pain story is often exaggerated, some babies even sleep through the operations/ going on the internet and posting pics of babies screaming after having their penis snipped is the same as going on the internet and posting pictures of aborted fetuses holding doctors hands. there are always people that will find the worst examples and use them to press their points

[STS]

here is a two-way article, i'm neither for it or against it, but i've had it done and it isn't as terrible as the point guy makes it out to be:

http://artofmanliness.com/2009/02/22...-circumcision/

[HapticSimian]

You are also deciding where that child gets to live, what their beliefs will be, what language they will speak, what clothes they will wear, what food they will eat, what entertainment they'll be subjected to, etc etc. kids have no say for the first few years of their life, and i feel it's the parents responsibility to make the best decision they can for them until they can make their own decisions. anyone that is circumcised now will tell you that they are happier it was done when they were a child.

All the initial items are decisions which have to be made, whereas circumcision is elective. It's disingenuous to equate the elective with the necessary.

also, the pain story is often exaggerated, some babies even sleep through the operations/ going on the internet and posting pics of babies screaming after having their penis snipped is the same as going on the internet and posting pictures of aborted fetuses holding doctors hands. there are always people that will find the worst examples and use them to press their points

Whilst this might be so, it does nothing to mitigate the ethical arguments against the practice.

[STS]

I guess, but i also see abortion as unethical but necessary. I had this exact same discussion with porch about reality vs a perfect world, i mean it would be NICE if circums weren't needed, just as if every kid was wanted and planned.

Maybe the divide is that circumcised and uncircumcised don't realise what the other is feeling and missing

[HapticSimian]

I can sympathise - ethics is a veritable minefield. However in this particular instance I feel compelled to align myself with the position articulated in the closing of the first article I posted:

I leave you with a quote from the anthropologist Donald Symons. He refers in this passage to female circumcision, but the underlying point holds equally for males:

If only one person in the world held down a terrified, struggling, screaming little girl, cut off her genitals with a septic blade, and sewed her back up … the only question would be how severely that person should be punished, and whether the death penalty would be a sufficiently severe sanction. But when millions of people do this, instead of the enormity being magnified millions-fold, suddenly it becomes “culture,” and thereby magically becomes less, rather than more, horrible…

The hyperbole of septic blades and whatnot really doesn't diminish the underlying principle to my mind...

[Nerfherder]

I can sympathise - ethics is a veritable minefield. However in this particular instance I feel compelled to align myself with the position articulated in the closing of the first article I posted:



The hyperbole of septic blades and whatnot really doesn't diminish the underlying principle to my mind...

ye people dismiss that point so easily but the fact remains. You wouldn't do it to a little girl, so why a boy ?

[ponder]

All the initial items are decisions which have to be made, whereas circumcision is elective. It's disingenuous to equate the elective with the necessary.

I'd also be happy if we could remove religious indoctrination from the list and let the kid decide for himself as he grows up what he wants to believe in. The rest of the stuff has very little impact on it's life.

[noxibox]

of course not, it should be up to parents and doctors if they suggest it.

The only thing that should be up the parents is deciding whether to follow the doctor's advice that best course of action to treat a current infection that has not responded to all other possible treatments is circumcision. And parents should view this surgery seriously enough that they get a second opinion. Doctors or anyone else who comes forward immediately after the birth of a boy and pushes circumcision should receive a swift kick to the groin.

i think the experts who look at a festering penis and say "tsk tsk, the foreskin must come off" have a degree for a reason.

That's not the same as doing the treatment in case.

why would they suggest cutting off foreskin for medical reasons when they can make more money out of creams to clean up infections? doesn't it seem like they would be losing money by providing a deterrent?

Because they know the infection rates are low whereas circumcision is guaranteed income. Every boy gets one whereas with infection only a small percentage will get them and most won't even be serious enough to make any real money. I'm not sure it's quite that cynical, since doctors aren't above falling for the alleged health benefits, but it wouldn't be the first time doctors were doing something more because of the money than the well-being of their patients.

I don't recall many circumcise guys in school, maybe 2 in my class. If they can't wash their dicks what else aren't they washing? I do however recall some moms having their sons done after they got divorced in primary school because that's what they liked. I also know one woman that had her kid circumcised twice because they did not remove 'enough' skin the first time round, once again her own preference, she liked it cut and tight

Sounds like women who need a bit trimmed off their equipment.

[Claymore]

what i feel is that growing up you go through a lot of stuff, and having your dad or mom help you clean your penis for the first 5 years isn't particularly enjoyable. everyone in this thread and at the age most people have their foreskin removed due to an infection is normally in their child/teenage years. you can't fault kids for not cleaning properly, but penis infections are bad. really bad. and it's up to the parents i feel, their child may never get an infection, and they dodged a bullet but nor circumcising him, they might circumcise him and then he grows up having to scrub less, who knows? i just feel it should be the parents choice, nobody elses. unless of course it is infected and it's the only solution, then it's the doctors too

Dodged a bullet? Such infections are very rare in anyone, and it's incredibly rare for it to require surgery. Bear in mind that girls get such infections at a higher rate than boys do; when last did you hear of girls needing surgery? The medication that works for girls works just fine for boys too, amazingly.

[Nerfherder]

Circs don't fix infections... they prevent future infections.

[HapticSimian]

Circs don't fix infections... they prevent future infections.

[Nerfherder]

I do however recall some moms having their sons done after they got divorced in primary school because that's what they liked. I also know one woman that had her kid circumcised twice because they did not remove 'enough' skin the first time round, once again her own preference, she liked it cut and tight

Thats pretty flipping creepy if you ask me... like a dad taking his daughter to have her vagina waxed because its his preference.

Its really weird how the moms are the most vocal about these things... and they don't even have cocks.

When I was born my step-grandmother really hammered my mother about me getting cut, she did everything short of cut me herself.

[HapticSimian]

Thats pretty flipping creepy if you ask me... like a dad taking his daughter to have her vagina waxed because its his preference.

Its really weird how the moms are the most vocal about these things... and they don't even have cocks.

When I was born my step-grandmother really hammered my mother about me getting cut, she did everything short of cut me herself.

Parents' vanity is a recurring theme though; take a look at the very first 'point' raised in support of the practice in the link posted by smalltownsky a few pages back:

Like Father, Like Son.
I’m circumcised, and my son will be circumcised too. My son should look like me in that way. Some people, especially women it seems to me, dismiss this reason as baloney. While it’s true that my son will not see my member very often, if he does, I want them to look alike. I can’t even explain why; I just do.

Madness...

[Nerfherder]

At least the dad has a penis of his own, I can sort of understand the like father like son thing.

Daddy, why does my winky look different to your winky... ?