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Thread: Introduction to Islam

  1. #361

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nerfherder View Post
    You should read up on them ... you might understand why some are scared of islamification.
    Honestly I did not even know it was a "them" lol I thought it was a person!Ok I done some research it seems they are tired of Nigerian corruption etc however they do seem extreme especially IF its true that they completely reject western knowledge since thats not mainstream Islam at all,you will find that it was in fact the mainstream Muslims of the past that preserved,translated and added to the Greeks knowledge of science.Places like Cordoba in spain bare witness to mainstream Islams love of mathematical principles and science through the ages.

    Mainstream Islam embraces and contributes to scientific advancement,always has and always will.
    So those that use this to justify being scared of Islamification are mistaken as this is a sect and mainstream Islam does largely not share their thinking.Yes there are overlapping ideologies which may be central to Islamic belief but unfortunately they seem to have a few extreme ideologies added too which makes it dangerous.
    Last edited by falcon786; 16-02-2013 at 11:01 AM.

  2. #362

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    Quote Originally Posted by grantza View Post
    Thanks, but your explanation has added further confusion. I understand that most Muslims are Sunni (at least in our country).

    "The ruling is upheld by Wahhabi Muslims".

    Wahhabi Muslims are mainly Saudi, if I am correct. The prophet's grave is in Saudi Arabia. It would seem they are contradicting their own ruling on this !
    Excellent observation. But the sad news is that the Saudi Wahhabi authorities have indicated an intention to, in the next few months, demolish the grave structure completely. Muslims, globally, are still in a state of disbelief/shock about this Wahhabi announcement, but some groups have now started to organise petitions and other activities to pressure the Saudi authorities to overturn this decision.

    The Sa'ud-Wahhab union back in the early 1900s engaged in barbaric extremist conquests, destroying structures and texts of enormous historical value to Muslims, not to mention the thousands of mainstream Muslims and scholars that they mass-murdered in the Arabian peninsula. Wahhabi Muslims, dressed in Bedouin styled Arab garb, are an anomaly to Islam and to other peace-loving peoples of the world.

  3. #363

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    Excellent observation. But the sad news is that the Saudi Wahhabi authorities have indicated an intention to, in the next few months, demolish the grave structure completely. Muslims, globally, are still in a state of disbelief/shock about this Wahhabi announcement, but some groups have now started to organise petitions and other activities to pressure the Saudi authorities to overturn this decision.
    nice article. the growing commercialisation of the saudi holy cities must be quite a stench for pious followers. the article sums it up well - nobody is doing anything about it because they're too scared of standing up against the nutjobs (vested interests).

    as with christianity, if the founder of islam came back today, i think he'd be less than happy about the gain of political wealth at the expense of social equality, premised on a revelation which intended the opposite. i don't remember the scriptures saying: "go ye, build massive structures in my name, levy taxes on the poor for religious rites, and establish a political priesthood to ensure that my principles of tolerance and equality are enforced on the earth".

    religion and politics - it's where things always go wrong.
    Last edited by murraybiscuit; 16-02-2013 at 12:51 PM.
    The causes of human actions are usually immeasurably more complex and varied than our subsequent explanations of them. Fyodor Dostoevsky - The Idiot

  4. #364
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    Why is it that non muslims are not permitted to enter mecca ?

    And, are non muslims permitted to visit the tomb / grave of the prophet in medina ?

  5. #365

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    Quote Originally Posted by grantza View Post
    Why is it that non muslims are not permitted to enter mecca ?

    And, are non muslims permitted to visit the tomb / grave of the prophet in medina ?
    There are differences of opinion on this matter. The largest of the 4 sound schools of law within Islam hold that it is permissible for non-Muslims to enter Makkah, as well the Prophet's tomb, provided that it is not for the purpose of polytheistic pilgrimage (as was performed by polytheists in the early days of Islam).

    The differences of opinion derive from varying views on operationalising a particular Quranic verse which prohibits those of "unsound/impure" faith from entering the Sacred Mosque for polytheistic pilgrimage. Differences stem from the fact that:

    • Many Muslim scholars view the entire Makkan region as being the Sacred Mosque
    • Scholars differ on whether there should be a blanket prohibition on non-Muslims, or only on those non-Muslims who intend non-Muslim pilgrimage (or hostility).

    While the largest school within mainstream Islam holds that it is permissible for non-Muslims to enter these spaces, Saudi authorities certainly do not agree. However, there are numerous instances of non-Muslims "faking it", and making it past Saudi "security". Anyway, it is HIGHLY unlikely that these "trespassers" actually go there to perform a non-Muslim pilgrimage.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 21-02-2013 at 05:39 PM.

  6. #366

    Default 5.6. Facilitation of Good and Evil

    Main > Belief/Faith > Facilitation of Good and Evil


    God facilitates all actions and all events (whether these events be perceived as good or evil by humans), completely according to His Will. Even when human beings exercise free choice, Power is required to enact the chosen course. This Power comes from God, who facilitates (or withholds facilitation) of all actions according to His perfect Knowledge, Power and Will. Every existent thing is sustained in existence at every moment in its designated space, or in its motion, by God's Will.

    Divine Decree and free will

    Human beings have free will. Having free will does not mean that everything that humans attempt to will into happening will necessarily be enacted. For this reason, some Muslim scholars avoid the term "free will", and instead use "free choice".

    God knows all that was, is and will be, and God exists independently of time (and of space), but created time (and space), and in the material world, He Wills things to take place chronologically. He knows what choices people will make, and He decides whether or not to facilitate these choices. People have their own wills (free will/choice), but God decides (determines) whether or not what people intend will actually come to pass, and thus His Will is done.

    If I attempt a good act, God still needs to facilitate it, but I receive credit for it because of the intention/will. While I can state, for all intents and purposes, that I did it, I should know that God is the ultimate Doer. For practical purposes, since for us the material world is the point of reference, we may ascribe "power" and "ownership" of actions to agents within creation (including ourselves). This is how we speak, per everyday language. However, we should know that no created thing possesses intrinsic power, and that God has absolute Power, and He Decrees all matters. We are accountable for what we will, regardless of the fact that God does the actions. For this reason, we are responsible for our own sins. Humans are responsible for the will/intention part that accompanies the action.

    Does God do evil, and why?

    From our vantage point, human actions can be good or evil, and God decides whether to enact the good or evil that we will. Again, we will be judged according to the intention/will that accompanies the action. However, God is not subject to what is relevant and applicable within His creation. While we are accountable for the good and evil that we will/"do" upon the earth, God Himself is beyond such judgements, and what He decrees and enacts is not subject to the specific notions of morality that He has ordained for humanity.

    As to why God permits evil to exist, Islamic scholar, Timothy Winter, explains:

    "In Islam, God has names of Beauty: the Compassionate, the Merciful, the Gentle, and many others. But He also has Names of Rigour: the Overwhelming, the Just, the Avenger. The world in which we live exists as the interaction and the manifestation of all of the divine attributes. Hence it is a place of ease and of hardship, of joy and of sorrow. It has to be this way: a world in which there was only ease could not be a place in which we can discover ourselves to be true human beings. It is only by experiencing hardship, and loss, and bereavement, and disease, that we rise above our egos, and show that we can live for others, and for principles, rather than only for ourselves."
    Last edited by wayfarer; 03-07-2013 at 07:20 PM.

  7. #367

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    So how do we know what God has ordained for us? He allows everything to happen. Does he know the difference between good and evil and the effect it has on peoples lives? Also, if he does know the difference, then how do we know that our "good" is not his "evil" since he is not subject to the same morality as us?

  8. #368

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaiyanZ View Post
    So how do we know what God has ordained for us? He allows everything to happen. Does he know the difference between good and evil and the effect it has on peoples lives? Also, if he does know the difference, then how do we know that our "good" is not his "evil" since he is not subject to the same morality as us?
    Thank you for your question.

    We do not know what God decrees, until we perceive it to happen. Everything that happens is according to the Divine Decree. The morals and rules we are to abide by are determined by God, and communicated to humanity (since the time of Adam) through the agency of prophets and Divine Books. Muslims derive their legal code from the Quran and other canonical texts, and this is the code according to which human beings are expected to live.

    God is the author of the good and evil by which he tests us, and knows well that which He Creates. Good and evil are constructs that inform human behaviour, derived from the human being's free will (as facilitated by God), and in the big scheme of things, God is not subject to or judged according to this.

    “And there will spring from you a nation that invites to goodness, and enjoins right conduct and forbids indecency. Such are they who are successful." (Quran 3:104)

    God knows every detail about every matter. We are commanded to enjoin good, and oppose evil, and yet both of these are authored by God. However, we will be judged according to our intentions, not by our actions. Note that the evil that God authors is not absolute evil; everything he does is good in the big scheme of things, as through Him, ultimate Justice will be done. But from an earthly perspective, we perceive good and evil according to the will/intention of humans. We should therefore oppose every evil that we perceive as such (as per His Guidance) and enjoin all that is good.

  9. #369

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    We do not know what God decrees, until we perceive it to happen. Everything that happens is according to the Divine Decree.
    So that means that we have no choice in what we do, because it has already been decided what we will do, by the known Divine Decree. At the least this sounds a bit unfair of your god, making me good and you bad. But there is another bit that seems to circle back on it's self, you say Divine Decree, yet you do not know that it is until it happens. This seems like determinism with a god as originator, and you know what you must to do allow an originator, show evidence for it.

  10. #370

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    Quote Originally Posted by S.Harris View Post
    So that means that we have no choice in what we do, because it has already been decided what we will do, by the known Divine Decree.
    Your comments are appreciated.

    We, ourselves, choose what we intend/will. And that is what we are accountable for. Our wills are determined by ourselves. God has Fore-Knowledge thereof, and decrees facilitation of actions according to His absolute Knowledge, Will and Power. God is the Creator of time, space and morality, and necessarily transcends beyond it.

    At the least this sounds a bit unfair of your god, making me good and you bad.
    Our wills are what make us good and bad. This is not forced upon us. I explained that in 5.6. If our wills were forced upon us, we would not have free choice. All actions, however, require facilitation by God.

    But there is another bit that seems to circle back on it's self, you say Divine Decree, yet you do not know that it is until it happens. This seems like determinism with a god as originator, and you know what you must to do allow an originator, show evidence for it.
    Arguments for or against the existence of the Originator is outside the scope of this thread. Muslims hold that all of humanity has a natural disposition towards belief in The One. Individuals may "forget" the primordial covenant, and for this reason God sends "reminders". But, through this covenant, human beings are inclined towards The Truth.
    Last edited by wayfarer; 26-06-2013 at 10:43 AM.

  11. #371

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    I think you should always try and quote the piece from the Quran that you base your assertions on. That way we can see whether your interpretation of the translated Quran is the same as others and whether it makes sense. I would like to look at the source of your information and interpret it myself as well, since your interpretation would tend to be biased.

  12. #372

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    Quote Originally Posted by SaiyanZ View Post
    I think you should always try and quote the piece from the Quran that you base your assertions on. That way we can see whether your interpretation of the translated Quran is the same as others and whether it makes sense. I would like to look at the source of your information and interpret it myself as well, since your interpretation would tend to be biased.
    I often present the canonical references. However, the views expressed in this thread are not my own assertions, but are the general consensus of the most senior scholars of mainstream Islam (about 90% of Muslims adhere to the mainstream), according to their learned and widely respected interpretations of Islam's canonical works (not only the Quran, as the Islamic sciences derive from much more than just the Quran). Personally, I am not an Islamic scholar, but a student of the scholars.

    The most developed sound school of Islamic belief supported by the overwhelming majority of the Islamic mainstream is Ashari Aqida. The views on belief expressed in this thread are therefore according to the Ashari school. There is consensus amongst mainstream scholars on the validity of the Ashari school.

    I re-iterate, this thread is representative of the established positions/assertions of mainstream Islam (also known as Sunni Islam) based on a wide range of canonical texts. These types of arguments (such as Divine Decree and free will) can be extremely complex, with numerous lengthy sources spread across many of Islam's canonical texts (along with loaded interpretive explanations), drawing on logic systems such as Aristotelian logic, that to present the actual arguments and source texts here is beyond the scope of this Introduction to Islam thread.

  13. #373

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    I often present the canonical references. However, the views expressed in this thread are not my own assertions, but are the general consensus of the most senior scholars of mainstream Islam (about 90% of Muslims adhere to the mainstream)
    I have already proved that mainstream Islam does not represent 90% of all Muslims. Mainstream Islam does not condone stoning but +30% of Muslims live in countries that have stoning as law. i have also stated that 7 of the most dangerous countries in the world are Islamic and wayfarer just said its biased.

    In A newsweek issue last year Pervez Musharraf denied that Pakistani is the most most dangerous country in the world but the 2nd after Afghanistan. We have Somalia , Mali , Iraqi , Bangladeshi.

    The majority of Muslims are mainstream yes but not 90 %

  14. #374

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    Quote Originally Posted by skyhawk View Post
    I have already proved that mainstream Islam does not represent 90% of all Muslims. Mainstream Islam does not condone stoning but +30% of Muslims live in countries that have stoning as law. i have also stated that 7 of the most dangerous countries in the world are Islamic and wayfarer just said its biased.

    In A newsweek issue last year Pervez Musharraf denied that Pakistani is the most most dangerous country in the world but the 2nd after Afghanistan. We have Somalia , Mali , Iraqi , Bangladeshi.

    The majority of Muslims are mainstream yes but not 90 %
    Hi Skyhawk

    Your misconception was cleared up very quickly, so please read that post, and stop beating a dead horse.

    http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthre...=1#post9799468
    Last edited by wayfarer; 02-03-2013 at 01:47 PM.

  15. #375

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    Quote Originally Posted by wayfarer View Post
    I often present the canonical references. However, the views expressed in this thread are not my own assertions, but are the general consensus of the most senior scholars of mainstream Islam (about 90% of Muslims adhere to the mainstream), according to their learned and widely respected interpretations of Islam's canonical works (not only the Quran, as the Islamic sciences derive from much more than just the Quran). Personally, I am not an Islamic scholar, but a student of the scholars.

    The most developed sound school of Islamic belief supported by the overwhelming majority of the Islamic mainstream is Ashari Aqida. The views on belief expressed in this thread are therefore according to the Ashari school. There is consensus amongst mainstream scholars on the validity of the Ashari school.

    I re-iterate, this thread is representative of the established positions/assertions of mainstream Islam (also known as Sunni Islam) based on a wide range of canonical texts. These types of arguments (such as Divine Decree and free will) can be extremely complex, with numerous lengthy sources spread across many of Islam's canonical texts (along with loaded interpretive explanations), drawing on logic systems such as Aristotelian logic, that to present the actual arguments and source texts here is beyond the scope of this Introduction to Islam thread.
    Just wondering. If it is too complex to point out the source of the muslim views then how does the average muslim know what they base their religion on? Is it not sheep mentality to follow just because others have said they studied the texts and have interpreted it for everyone else? I mean if people base their entire lives on something they should know the source and be able to easily interpret it for themselves.

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