Facebook   Twitter    e-mail newsletter    YouTube    RSS Feed    Android App    iPhone and iPad App     BlackBerry App    


Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 23456 78 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 111

Thread: Nelson Mandela

  1. #76
    Super Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Previously this post ->
    Posts
    24,490

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodeamus View Post
    I honestly wonder if the ANC wanted to make it better, at the moment they have nothing but propaganda to show for that, lets not forget that Mandela didn't have a glamorous administration, allegations of corruption started during his term. Also the nats did try with reformations during the 1980's. The tricamberial parliament was a 'solution' which failed, but you can't really accuse the nats of always wanting to keep the status qua. Having the reality of the soviet union on one side and world isolation on the other side put them in a very difficult position and we can't really say that apartheid didn't end well.
    You mean tricameral parliament? Really? Is that what's acceptable as trying?

  2. #77

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fudzy View Post
    You should read this:

    http://www.scribd.com/doc/32954067/S...Factual-Review

    That bloggers source is one bitter and quite biased given his views in the document.
    That article was written by his brother Koos van der Merwe (the MP), and the numbers do actually clock up ( ,I did browse through your article and did a quick count).

  3. #78

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fudzy View Post
    You mean tricameral parliament? Really? Is that what's acceptable as trying?
    And the dismantling of some of the apartheid laws, you have to remember that the immorality act was still regarded as acceptable among the white community at the time, you weren't going to swing their views over night. Hell the KP was formed precisely because of that reason. Also the homeland solution was regarded as a solution, now sure I am not saying that it was an ideal solution and some of the solutions were retarded, but saying that the nats did absolutely nothing is simply not true.

    People just don't want to find some objectivity in history, the idea that the ANC was this glamorous organization and that the nats were nothing more than slave masters isn't history it is propaganda. Both sides made mistakes and both sides did wrong, yet some people refuse to accept that.

    Also the article accuses PW botha on the accounts that he was later not acquitted, after his appeal which found the TRC to be unconstitutional, so I'm not sure how factual your article is too (although most of what I'm currently reading seems accurate to my knowledge).

    another 'mishaps'

    It should therefore not surprise anyone that targets like the St JamesChurch, King Williams Town Golf Club, Heildeberg Tavern etc wereselected. The leadership of the APLA takes full responsibility for allthese operations. The APLA forces who carried out these operationsfollowed the directives from their commanders and those directiveswere from the highest echelons of the military leadership. We do nottherefore regret that such operations took place and there is thereforenothing to ask forgiveness f
    your source is actually quite balanced.
    Last edited by Nicodeamus; 17-07-2012 at 07:56 PM.

  4. #79
    Super Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Previously this post ->
    Posts
    24,490

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodeamus View Post
    People just don't want to find some objectivity in history, the idea that the ANC was this glamorous organization and that the nats were nothing more than slave masters isn't history it is propaganda. Both sides made mistakes and both sides did wrong, yet some people refuse to accept that.
    Agreed, it comes down to a balanced amount of knowledge and as is commonly seen here it's usually only the one side.

  5. #80

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fudzy View Post
    Agreed, it comes down to a balanced amount of knowledge and as is commonly seen here it's usually only the one side.

    We should also consider that at the time laws such as the immorality act was passed black subjugation was a world wide phenomenon, when Verwoerd was in power, it was still illegal for a black and a white couple to be married in 37 of the states in America. Herman Giliomee actually wrote a very nice balanced article (I thought) in rapport last week.


    Hermann *Gilio*mee

    Baie politici en kommentators beskou apartheid deesdae as ’n ideologie wat uniek boos en veel meer verdrukkend was as die segregasiebeleid van voor 1948.

    Soos die joernalis Piet Cillié dit in 1985 al gestel het, word die indruk gewek van Suid-Afrika as ’n mooi saamlewende, veelrassige gemeenskap wat deur diktatoriale NP-regerings verdeel en gefragmenteer is en sodoende verhinder is “om die vriendskaplike betrekkinge te ontwikkel waarheen hy op pad was”.

    Volgens hierdie siening van die geskiedenis was die land ná 1948 op ’n lang ekonomiese, politieke en maatskaplike afdraande pad waarvan die agteruitgang eers in 1990 gestuit is.

    Soos Cillié dink ek dit is ’n heeltemal verwronge begrip van die geskiedenis.

    Hierin word ons ondersteun deur die liberale filosoof Alfred Hoernlé (wat in 1945 oorlede is) as hy skryf: “[There] is a dominant urge towards segregation, which has moulded the structure of South African society and made it what it now is.”

    Die Britse historikus Herbert Butterfield waarsku tereg dat as ons ’n oordeel oor die geskiedenis probeer vel ooreenkomstig hedendaagse morele oortuigings, ons niks anders as ’n reuse-optiese illusie skep nie.

    Om apartheid te verstaan, moet ons dit dus oorweeg in die lig van hoe mense dit beskou het tussen die jare 1948 en 1958, toe dié beleid ingestel is.

    In uiterste gevalle word apartheid deesdae selfs vergelyk met die uitwissing van Joodse gemeenskappe in Europa deur Nazi-Duitsland tydens die Tweede Wêreldoorlog.

    Die NP se apartheidsmodel was egter geskoei op die van die suidelike Amerikaanse deelstate waar segregasie teen die 1950’s nog sterk toegepas is, en nie Nazi-Duitsland nie.

    In dié konteks is dit belangrik om te onthou dat “gemengde huwelike” in 1961, die jaar toe pres. Barack Obama se ma met ’n swart man van Kenia in die huwelik getree het, nog onwettig was in 30 van die VSA se 50 deelstate. Tien jaar later, in 1971, het Louisiana ’n wet aanvaar wat bepaal dat ’n mens met een swart voorouer uit 32 as swart geklassifiseer moet word.

    Apartheid was ’n uitloper van ’n segrasiebeleid wat reeds sedert die Anglo-Boereoorlog as regeringsbeleid gevestig was en dus geensins radikaal nuut nie.

    Dit wil nie sê dat die NP se apartheidsbeleid wel in bepaalde opsigte duidelik verskil het van die segregasie wat dit voorafgegaan het nie.

    Vóór 1948 het opeenvolgende regerings swart “reservate” as ’n bykomende deel van die landsadministrasie beskou en swart mense se reg op ’n baie beperkte vorm van politieke verteenwoordiging erken.

    Die NP het ook verder gegaan in sy segregasiebeleid deur sekere vorms van skeiding en diskriminasie tussen wit en swart ook op sosiale verkeer tussen wit en bruin, asook tussen wit en Indiër van toepassing te maak.

    Die vernaamste hiervan was die afskaffing van bruin stemreg, die opdwing van aparte woongebiede en die klassifikasie van mense in bepaalde groepe. Die paswette, wat teen 1948 reeds bestaan het, is daarna veel strenger op swart mense toegepas.

    Die oorheersing van ander bevolkingsgroepe was dus ná 1948 strawwer en meer stelselmatig, maar nie wesenlik anders as voorheen nie.

    Wat die ekonomie betref, word die aanspraak soms gemaak dat die land sonder apartheid vinniger sou kon gegroei het as die 4,5% per jaar waarmee dit tussen 1948 en 1981 gegroei het.

    Teoreties is dit seker moontlik, maar net as beleggers, binnelands en buitelands, daarvan oortuig was dat die land stabiel sou bly.

    In die apartheidstyd het baie beleggers gemeen die NP se beleidsraamwerk is voordelig vir groei. Hulle het dieselfde geglo van Botswana, wat ná onafhanklikwording ’n konserwatiewe ekonomiese en maatskaplike beleid gevolg het.

    In sy outobiografie beskryf Nelson Mandela die Vryheidsmanifes as ’n revolusionêre dokument wat nie sonder ’n “radikale verandering” aan die ekonomiese en politieke strukture ingestel sou kon word nie. So ’n radikale ommekeer sou waarskynlik ’n groot uittog van beleggers tot gevolg gehad het – die teenoorgestelde as wat die apartheidsregering vermag het.

    Maar wat sou gebeur het as die Verenigde Party (VP) nie die 1948-verkiesing verloor het nie? Sou ’n meer liberale beleid van ’n nie-rassige gekwalifiseerde stem (aan mense met ’n sekere opvoedingsvlak of vaste eiendom van ’n sekere waarde) meer suksesvol gewees het?

    Liberale van daardie era het geargumenteer dat so ’n stelsel sou lei tot ’n meer gematigde politieke klimaat en dat gekwalifiseerde swart kiesers uiteindelik deur persoonlike belange, eerder as rasse- of etniese identiteit, gelei sou word wanneer hulle stem. Daar is egter geen voorbeeld van enige veelrassige land waar dinge só gewerk het nie.

    In Suid-Afrika sou ’n gekwalifiseerde stemreg waarskynlik nie stabiliteit gebring het nie. Die vlak waarop swart mense vir stemreg kwalifiseer, sou waarskynlik altyd hoogs omstrede gebly het en spanning tussen wit gemeenskappe net vererger het.

    As die vlak waarop mense vir stemreg kwalifiseer te vinnig verlaag is, sou daar heel waarskynlik gou ’n regering aan die bewind gekom het wat ’n vorm van “staatskapitalisme” of sosialisme probeer instel het, met dodelike ekonomiese gevolge.

    Wat Suid-Afrika ná 1948 gekry het, was natuurlik nie sosialisme of ’n liberale demokrasie nie, maar apartheid.

    Daarmee saam het die NP-regering ’n konserwatiewe ekonomiese beleid gehandhaaf wat die grondslag gelê het vir bestendige ekonomiese groei. Hy het begrotingsoorskotte gebruik om skuld af te betaal en buitensporige looneise van wit werkers verwerp.

    Hoewel dr. H.F. Verwoerd se Bantoe-onderwys tereg gekritiseer is omdat die besteding aan wit en swart so ongelyk was, het swart geletterdheid tog aansienlik verbeter.

    Tussen 1950 en 1970 het die getal swart kinders op skool met drie keer vermenigvuldig. Voorts was swart- en wit-leerplanne basies dieselfde.

    In die eerste helfte van die 1960’s het die Suid-Afrikaanse ekonomie teen gemiddeld 6% per jaar gegroei, inflasie was 2% en grootskaalse beleggings het ingestroom.

    Die land was suksesvol genoeg dat die nuustydskrif Time Verwoerd in Augustus 1960 kon beskryf as “one of the ablest *white leaders Africa has ever produced”.

    Uiteindelik het apartheid Suid-Afrika egter ekonomies duur te staan gekom, veral in die vorm van gebrekkige onderwys vir swart en bruin kinders, ’n onproduktiewe arbeidsmag, ’n gebrek aan vaardighede en ’n groot omset van werkers weens die reuse-omvang van trekarbeid.

    In die 1950’s en 1960’s was dié skade egter nog beperk omdat die vervaardigingsektor klein en ongekompliseerd was. Dit was eers in die vroeë 1970’s, toe die vervaardigingsektor sterk begin uitbrei het, dat dié gevolge duidelik sou word.

    Verwoerd word deesdae gebrandmerk as ’n “bose genie” wat apartheid so te sê eiehandig uitgedink en toegepas het. Stephen Mulholland, voormalige redakteur van Financial Mail, noem hom “one of history’s monsters” – saam met Saddam Hoesein in dieselfde kategorie as die massamoordenaars Josef Stalin, Adolf Hitler, Mao Zedong en Pol Pot. Maar in die 1960’s het toonaangewende historici – wat nie voorstanders van apartheid was nie – baie anders oor hom gevoel.

    Die uitstaande liberale historikus C.W. de Kiewiet vergelyk hom in 1963 met Charles de Gaulle, “the stern, headstrong but deeply imaginative leader of France”.

    Argumente dat ekonomiese groei in dié tydperk swart mense niks in die sak gebring het nie, hou ook nie steek nie.

    Hoewel die welvaartgaping tussen swart en wit groot gebly het en swart mense se vooruitgang boonop deur apartheidsmaatreëls aan bande gelê is, het die besteebare inkomste van swart, bruin en Indiërs in die 1960’s en 1970’s vinniger gegroei as dié van wit mense, hoewel van ’n baie lae basis.

    Dit was natuurlik skrale troos vir mense in die swart reservate met wie dit broekskeur gegaan het. Vir hulle was daar egter steeds hoop op werk, al was dit vir ’n baie klein loon.

    J.L. Sadie het bereken dat 73,6% van die nuwe toetreders tot die arbeidsmark in 1965 in die formele sektor werk gekry het, meer as ooit tevore. In 1970 het dit tot 76,6% gestyg, maar daarna geval tot 43,3% in 1998. Vandag is dit nóg laer.

    Geskiedskrywers staan onder die verpligting om die ondenkbare te dink. As ’n mens oor apartheid wil oordeel, moet ’n mens daarom die volgende ondenkbare stellings oorweeg:

    * Ná die Tweede Wêreldoorlog kon Suid-Afrika ’n liberale demokrasie geword het of die land kon 25 jaar lank teen 5% per jaar groei. Albei kon nie gelyk gebeur nie.
    * Snelle rasse-integrasie kon plaasvind of die land kon vir 25 jaar redelike stabiliteit beleef. Albei kon nie gelyk gebeur nie.
    * Die staat kon voortgaan om laegraadse goudmyne met goedkoop swart arbeid winsgewend te hou terwyl hulle reuse-belastingbydraes tot die staatskas maak of hulle kon swart vakbonde wettig. Albei kon nie gelyk gebeur nie.

    Nie een van dié stellings kan bewys word nie, maar dit beteken steeds nie dat jy nie die ondenkbare moet dink nie.
    http://www.rapport.co.za/Weekliks/Nu...-boos-20120623

    I doubt you will find an English version anywhere.

    I find it ironic that Time Magazine voted Verwoerd in 1960 as one of the greatest leaders of the decade and in 1994 they voted Mandela into the exact same position.

    If you want to judge apartheid then judge it by the morality of its own time as Gilliomee said.
    Last edited by Nicodeamus; 17-07-2012 at 08:08 PM.

  6. #81
    Super Grandmaster ponder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    KZN Dolphin Coast
    Posts
    33,989

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fudzy View Post
    Well then you acknowledge that atrocities of both sides were equally unacceptable, the difference is one side fought to make it better, the other fought to keep it the same.
    The ends don't justify the means.

    It's not over yet, the ANC/SACP/Cosatu has bigger plans
    entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

  7. #82
    Super Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Previously this post ->
    Posts
    24,490

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodeamus View Post
    We should also consider that at the time laws such as the immorality act was passed black subjugation was a world wide phenomenon, when Verwoerd was in power, it was still illegal for a black and a white couple to be married in 37 of the states in America. Herman Giliomee actually wrote a very nice balanced article (I thought) in rapport last week.

    http://www.rapport.co.za/Weekliks/Nu...-boos-20120623

    I doubt you will find an English version anywhere.

    I find it ironic that Time Magazine voted Verwoerd in 1960 as one of the greatest leaders of the decade and in 1994 they voted Mandela into the exact same position.

    If you want to judge apartheid then judge it by the morality of its own time as Gilliomee said.
    Wasn't Hitler too?

  8. #83
    Super Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Previously this post ->
    Posts
    24,490

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ponder View Post
    It's not over yet, the ANC/SACP/Cosatu has bigger plans
    Yes, apparently the sky has been falling for a very long time now. Not only here but all over the world.

  9. #84

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fudzy View Post
    Wasn't Hitler too?
    Hitler was pretty much criticized by every leader (apart from the countries that allied with him), even uncle Joe Stalin thought he was a tyrant, but surprisingly yes, just before the Holocaust the Armenian genocide did occur and before that countless other wars just as cruel as WW2, Germany had reasons to go to war, but they had no reason to do what they did during the war. Although discussing WW2 is even more of a complicated issue because quite frankly there wasn't a 'good side'.

  10. #85

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ponder View Post
    The ends don't justify the means.

    It's not over yet, the ANC/SACP/Cosatu has bigger plans
    I doubt they have the capability of carrying them out, even if they wanted to, so far they couldn't run a successful military campaign and they cannot govern a country successfully. Unless failure is one of their plans.

  11. #86
    Super Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    The Big Wide World
    Posts
    5,073

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fudzy View Post
    Wasn't Hitler too?
    are you saying he wasn't?

    Give me the name of a contemporary leader who can compare.
    Last edited by TheHiveMind; 17-07-2012 at 10:40 PM.

  12. #87
    Super Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Previously this post ->
    Posts
    24,490

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TheHiveMind View Post
    are you saying he wasn't?

    Give me the name of a contemporary leader who can compare.
    Huh? I wasn't sure if he was or not. Looking at the list, Time magazine certainly can't honouring all these people.
    Last edited by Fudzy; 17-07-2012 at 11:12 PM.

  13. #88

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Garyvdh View Post
    That was what the whole truth and reconciliation commission was about, it gave these people a way to get amnesty without actually having to make any actual personal apologies.

    so what. you'd swear this man was birthed by the virgin mary the way people are carrying on about him. i don't care if he was a freedom fighter and spent 27 years in prison and became the first black south african president, or that they want to claim south africa the rainbow nation because of him. mother teresa did more than he did in her life time than mandela did in his.
    sanicol@telkomsa.net

    Reach out as you live life. Aim for the moon and if you miss reach out and grab a star.

  14. #89
    Super Grandmaster
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Previously this post ->
    Posts
    24,490

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Celine View Post
    so what. you'd swear this man was birthed by the virgin mary the way people are carrying on about him. i don't care if he was a freedom fighter and spent 27 years in prison and became the first black south african president, or that they want to claim south africa the rainbow nation because of him. mother teresa did more than he did in her life time than mandela did in his.
    That's sad.
    Quote Originally Posted by reactor_sa
    ^ fountain of knowledge

  15. #90
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    2,595

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Fudzy View Post
    That's sad.
    But true.

Page 6 of 8 FirstFirst ... 23456 78 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Someone is fibbing in Nelson Mandela Bay
    By daveza in forum News and Current Affairs
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 06-05-2011, 10:19 AM
  2. Obama 'another Nelson Mandela'
    By lcbxx in forum News and Current Affairs
    Replies: 26
    Last Post: 05-11-2008, 03:11 PM
  3. Nelson Mandela Challenge
    By skoob in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 16-11-2007, 02:01 PM
  4. Nelson Mandela turns 87
    By ghoti in forum Off Topic
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 18-07-2005, 09:18 PM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •