Islamic calls for for Slavery's Legalization

[Mineer]

What do you think about the expanding influence of the Saudi Wahhabi movement amongst muslims in the western world especially new converts, this ties in with the earlier topic regarding the construction of mosques by the Saudis around the world.

well from a Philosophical point of view If Sunni is the correct version of Islam they(Wahabi) should never be able to out grow in size. but sitting back and relaxing does not reflect well or give a good impression, and I agree Sunni Muslims should become more active in promoting our view point.

Just had a thought now, I have not really thought about it like this before, but have you ever noticed how Muslims have almost always say after something terrible has happened this is not Islam, and I am sure you get tired of the rhetoric as there are ppl causing crap in the world claiming to be Muslim yet here we are saying that is not Islam. I think Sunnis are doing what we do to promote our beliefs as per normal and living our day to day lives, then get a huge shock "Muslims are at the forefront of slavery or bombing up buildings and causing havoc around the world", We sitting thinking wait that ain't right, that's not what we were taught, Its almost a rude awakening. I am sure many don't even know how to respond properly to such extremism, that's why some of the reactions of Muslims even Sunni can be so confusing at times, like some reports of Muslims celebrating the twin towers fall, not realizing that they would not want to stand with the Wahhabi sect on any issue as Wahhabi persons view every other Muslim as non-Muslim and would gladly do the same to us.

[Mineer]

Doesn't really change the fallacy.

I mean... if this other sect becomes the biggest you are going to have to admit that it is right and move over to it just because you are told to instead of actually analysing critically what it is you are switching to.

You make a valid point, but do you think the laymen would be able argue much against say an Osama bin laddin, who uses the very same books that the laymen uses to promote his Islamic views, and yes Islam preaches education in all spheres in fact Islam makes it very very clear that it is encumbment on every Muslim male and female to seek knowledge. So that they can critically analyse the varies topics, not only just the topics concerning the sects, even evolution needs to be critically challenged, and accepted when there are no more arguments that could be made about it. but tell me how many ppl could argue like SWA in that other thread, and sound convincing about I.D. as a theory, and how many more could argue against him ? if I.D. is wrong

Would it be not with in the grasp of an Omnipotent God to foresee that some people might not have an interest in the field of study that would enable them to give an educated opinion about the varies sects that could emerge, and give an easy to understand equation to work out what is what, What could be more simpler the sect with the larges number is the correct one follow the others to your on your own peril

and yes you make a very very good point, Education can not be more stressed

[porchrat]

You make a valid point, but do you think the laymen would be able argue much against say an Osama bin laddin, who uses the very same books that the laymen uses to promote his Islamic views, and yes Islam preaches education in all spheres in fact Islam makes it very very clear that it is encumbment on every Muslim male and female to seek knowledge. So that they can critically analyse the varies topics, not only just the topics concerning the sects, even evolution needs to be critically challenged, and accepted when there are no more arguments that could be made about it. but tell me how many ppl could argue like SWA in that other thread, and sound convincing about I.D. as a theory, and how many more could argue against him ? if I.D. is wrong

Would it be not with in the grasp of an Omnipotent God to foresee that some people might not have an interest in the field of study that would enable them to give an educated opinion about the varies sects that could emerge, and give an easy to understand equation to work out what is what, What could be more simpler the sect with the larges number is the correct one follow the others to your on your own peril

and yes you make a very very good point, Education can not be more stressed

Again it still leaves the problem of what happens if this sect becomes the biggest.

Surely a smarter approach would be to just give a core message that is paramount above all others that describes the nature of the entire religion that is unambiguous and easily understandable regardless of the rest of the scriptures?... or am I missing something here. Something like the Golden Rule or something like that.

Telling someone to just go with the biggest group strikes me as a really strange approach because then if the other sect becomes the biggest it is the right one regardless of anything else... do you think that sect is the wrong one solely because it is not the biggest?... if it becomes the biggest will you switch to it simply because that is what your scriptures command and ignore the other reasons why you think it is the wrong one or will you reject it based on your other misgivings and instead continue on as you have always done as a minority?

I hope you understand what I have written. I am battling to sort the grammar out

(this isn't some veiled attack or something involving some sort of hidden agenda (hopefully by now you know me well enough to realise this but you never know ) it is a genuine question, I am rather interested in your answer)


EDIT: also I don't know if Swa is necessarily a good example to use. The guy has a serious lack of understanding of the topics he is discussing. Just his thermodynamics garbage alone is laughable. Something I would expect from rza. He could be convincing only to those that didn't attend any form of secondary school whatsoever.

[Mineer]

Again it still leaves the problem of what happens if this sect becomes the biggest.

Surely a smarter approach would be to just give a core message that is paramount above all others that describes the nature of the entire religion that is unambiguous and easily understandable regardless of the rest of the scriptures?... or am I missing something here. Something like the Golden Rule or something like that.

Telling someone to just go with the biggest group strikes me as a really strange approach because then if the other sect becomes the biggest it is the right one regardless of anything else... do you think that sect is the wrong one solely because it is not the biggest?... if it becomes the biggest will you switch to it simply because that is what your scriptures command and ignore the other reasons why you think it is the wrong one or will you reject it based on your other misgivings and instead continue on as you have always done as a minority?

I hope you understand what I have written. I am battling to sort the grammar out

(this isn't some veiled attack or something involving some sort of hidden agenda (hopefully by now you know me well enough to realise this but you never know ) it is a genuine question, I am rather interested in your answer)


EDIT: also I don't know if Swa is necessarily a good example to use. The guy has a serious lack of understanding of the topics he is discussing. Just his thermodynamics garbage alone is laughable. Something I would expect from rza. He could be convincing only to those that didn't attend any form of secondary school whatsoever.

hey firstly I don't mind, if I had problems answering your questions then I would not stay on this site
2ndly I don't know if I am not clear enough but in my opinion I though I answered you. I will try to explain my diffidently just take a step in my shoes where I believe that there is a God, would he not be able to keep the promise of the his beloved Prophet consistently true by his power?

Consider, if Wahhabi is the correct version nothing I do or you do would be able to stop it from growing at such an exponential rate it would be out grow the Sunni sect that is by some estimates 90% of the Muslim population, doing this while currently being only between 4% and 1%, and this would happen by Gods will to make the statement "the largest group in Islam is the correct group" true. consider this group started in 1740 if God indeed does exist the He the Almighty had 272yrs to make the statement true.

[Unhappy438]

hey firstly I don't mind, if I had problems answering your questions then I would not stay on this site
2ndly I don't know if I am not clear enough but in my opinion I though I answered you. I will try to explain my diffidently just take a step in my shoes where I believe that there is a God, would he not be able to keep the promise of the his beloved Prophet consistently true by his power?

Consider, if Wahhabi is the correct version nothing I do or you do would be able to stop it from growing at such an exponential rate it would be out grow the Sunni sect that is by some estimates 90% of the Muslim population, doing this while currently being only between 4% and 1%, and this would happen by Gods will to make the statement "the largest group in Islam is the correct group" true. consider this group started in 1740 if God indeed does exist the He the Almighty had 272yrs to make the statement true.

Sorry just to clarify one more thing, you are saying God uses his power to influence the correct sect by making them the most popular?

[porchrat]

hey firstly I don't mind, if I had problems answering your questions then I would not stay on this site
2ndly I don't know if I am not clear enough but in my opinion I though I answered you.

I am glad you are happy to answer my questions and don't take offence. Certainly from my side none is meant.

Unfortunately yes I haven't understood your answers up until now or seen how they address my questions. It could very well be a failure on my part.

I will try to explain my diffidently just take a step in my shoes where I believe that there is a God, would he not be able to keep the promise of the his beloved Prophet consistently true by his power?

Consider, if Wahhabi is the correct version nothing I do or you do would be able to stop it from growing at such an exponential rate it would be out grow the Sunni sect that is by some estimates 90% of the Muslim population, doing this while currently being only between 4% and 1%, and this would happen by Gods will to make the statement "the largest group in Islam is the correct group" true. consider this group started in 1740 if God indeed does exist the He the Almighty had 272yrs to make the statement true.

I know very little about how God is supposed to behave as far as Islam is concerned. If you are asking whether or not your deity would directly intervene in order to prevent the incorrect one from rising up to keep the whole "be a part of the largest one" instruction true then I have only an understanding of this problem from the Christian perspective. Is this direct intervention something that is believed to occur in Islam often?

I know that in Christianity the issue of God's omniscience versus our free will is an issue of serious contention. Entire denominations (such as Calvinism) have been formed as a result of this issue.

Why 272 years? Is that part of your scriptures too? Judging by the age of Islam as a faith this 272 year period has surely already passed... or do you mean 272 years remaining from this year?

[Unhappy438]

"The largest group in Islam is the correct group" statement seems very likely to have been created by the largest group at the time to hold onto power. Im interested to know if the Sunni's have always been the largest throughout history.

Why 272 years? Is that part of your scriptures too? Judging by the age of Islam as a faith this 272 year period has surely already passed... or do you mean 272 years remaining from this year?

That seems to be the age of the Wahhabi.

[Mineer]

"The largest group in Islam is the correct group" statement seems very likely to have been created by the largest group at the time to hold onto power. Im interested to know if the Sunni's have always been the largest throughout history.



That seems to be the age of the Wahhabi.

tried Googling if Sunni were always the majority could not find an independent website to verify that sorry, but the statements are correct and verifiable as authentic quotes of the prophet (P.B.U.H)

[Unhappy438]

tried Googling if Sunni were always the majority could not find an independent website to verify that sorry, but the statements are correct and verifiable as authentic quotes of the prophet (P.B.U.H)

Thanks for trying, it makes me wonder though if the Islamic God has the ability to make the correct sect more powerful why then doesn't make them 99.99% or 100%? Surely all these other sects are just muddying the waters and twisting the rules etc of Islam, people wont be following what he truly wants them to follow. One could argue that its their fault for following a sect that's in the minority. However if you think back to a day before our current technology how would someone correctly tell which was the majority and which was the minority. They could be following a sect that was a majority within their own country yet a minority across the Islamic world without even knowing it. I don't know maybe i am missing something but it all seems very confusing to me.

[Mineer]

Thanks for trying, it makes me wonder though if the Islamic God has the ability to make the correct sect more powerful why then doesn't make them 99.99% or 100%? Surely all these other sects are just muddying the waters and twisting the rules etc of Islam, people wont be following what he truly wants them to follow. One could argue that its their fault for following a sect that's in the minority. However if you think back to a day before our current technology how would someone correctly tell which was the majority and which was the minority. They could be following a sect that was a majority within their own country yet a minority across the Islamic world without even knowing it. I don't know maybe i am missing something but it all seems very confusing to me.

you make a valid point and I will admit I not to sure how to answer you can I come back to you on that one?

[porchrat]

That seems to be the age of the Wahhabi.

Oh duh

Me not reading properly again!

[Unhappy438]

you make a valid point and I will admit I not to sure how to answer you can I come back to you on that one?

I was kind of just airing my thoughts not really expecting an answer but if you could try to give me one that would be great thanks.

[R/SGT]

How does the muslim world feel about this

Destruction of early Islamic heritage sites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruc...heritage_sites

Doesn’t the Wahhabi control of Mecca and Medina give them a lot of power within the Islamic community even though they are such a small percentage of the whole?

[SYNERGY]

How does the muslim world feel about this

Destruction of early Islamic heritage sites
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruc...heritage_sites

Doesn’t the Wahhabi control of Mecca and Medina give them a lot of power within the Islamic community even though they are such a small percentage of the whole?

Its massive problem. Its a great loss to the Islamic world. The Islamic world has been vocal against it. Turkey had a tiff with Saudi destroying an ancient site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ajyad_Fortress).

[R/SGT]

You guys dont seem to be to worried about Wahhabism

Yet I think that it is going to bite you in the butt, especially after reading this

International influence and propagationAccording to observers, such as Gilles Kepel, Wahhabism gained considerable influence in the Islamic World following a tripling in the price of oil in the mid-1970s and the progressive takeover of Saudi Aramco in the 1974–1980 period. The Saudi government began to spend tens of billions of dollars throughout the Islamic World to promote Wahhabism, which was sometimes referred to as "petro-Islam".[63] According to the documentary called The Qur'an aired in the UK, presenter Antony Thomas suggested the figure may be "upward of $100 billion".[64]

Its largess funded an estimated "90% of the expenses of the entire faith", throughout the Muslim World, according to journalist Dawood al-Shirian.[65] It extended to young and old, from children's madrasas to high-level scholarship.[66] "Books, scholarships, fellowships, mosques" (for example, "more than 1,500 mosques were built from Saudi public funds over the last 50 years") were paid for.[67] It rewarded journalists and academics, who followed it and built satellite campuses around Egypt for Al Azhar, the oldest and most influential Islamic university.[68]

This financial power has done much to overwhelm less strict local interpretations of Islam, according to observers like Dawood al-Shirian and Lee Kuan Yew,[65] and has caused the Saudi interpretation to be perceived as the correct interpretation in many Muslims' minds.[69]

The Saudis have spent at least $87 billion propagating Wahhabism abroad during the past two decades, and the scale of financing is believed to have increased in the past two years. The bulk of this funding goes towards the construction and operating expenses of mosques, madrasas, and other religious institutions that preach Wahhabism. It also supports imam training; mass media and publishing outlets; distribution of textbooks and other literature; and endowments to universities (in exchange for influence over the appointment of Islamic scholars). Some of the hundreds of thousands of non-Saudis who live in Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf have been influenced by Wahhabism and preach Wahhabism in their home country upon their return. Agencies controlled by the Kingdom's Ministry of Islamic Affairs, Endowments, Da'wah and Guidance are responsible for outreach to non-Muslim residents and are converting hundreds of non-Muslims into Islam every year.[70][71][72][73][74]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wahhabi...nd_controversy