As I stated earlier in this thread the best battle system is what matters. The side with the best training, best intel, best coms, best "symphony of weapon systems (best harmony from different systems working together) will win. One need not have the best spec'd planes, or the most. The intergrated combination of systems like satelites, AWACS, drones, missile platforms and fighters places the US in a totally different place compared to the rest. They will win even with lower spec planes. The opponent will get missles up his ass long before he even knows the US has assets in the area. The game has changed. Those one on one fights are rare now.
Guys I'm not talking about a concept design or a prototype in testing, I mean a real jet that can be scrambled tomorrow should the need arise. Does the King Raptor or PAK FA meet this criteria?...I know Su-35 is operational.
One of the interesting and surprising strategies the US has is not to send up interceptors to intercept opponents but to send up B1B "bombers" loaded with tons of missles that create a wall of explosives that takes approaching squadrons down in one go.
Major positive cited by Turkey -
- The 'Rooivalk' is of simple design, requiring less intensive maintenace and can operate in dry & dusty environments, which is of obvious importance to Turkey.
Major drawbacks cited by Turkey -
- Was the heavier of the two finalists,
- It has a limited integrated weapons system.
Likely reason for losing the contract -
- Eurocopter, whose 'Tiger' was overlooked, supply the engines to Denel for the 'Rooivalk's and they stated they would not guarantee a supply of engines if the 'Rooivalk' was selected.
Last edited by thestaggy; 08-08-2012 at 11:33 AM.
It would difficult to place the F22 as the top fighter in the world. In one-on-one combat it got owned by the Typhoons in Red Flag contests. The Typhoon pilots commented that the closer in the combat got, the bigger their advantage.
The real issue in modern warfare, as mentioned by BeVonk, is overall battlespace integration. The F22 is an old cold war fighter, the first prototype flying in 1990 and with less subsequent development being done on the avionics than with some competing aircraft. The result is poor battlespace integration - when they are on operational deployment they require bizjets to fly along with them to act as "routers" for their communications.
Also, bear in mind that the F-22 is nearly 3-metres longer, 3-metres wider (in terms of wingspan) and when fully loaded is nearly twice the weight (29,300 kg for the F-22 vs 16,000 kg for the Typhoon). To be honest, that is like bemoaning the fact that a Cherokee SRT8 can't corner as well as a Lotus Exige.
From Major Marc Gruene, one of the pilots that participated in the Red-Flag exercise against the F-22s;
From the same exerise however, we get this;Gruene said the Raptor excels at fighting from beyond visual range with its high speed and altitude, sophisticated radar and long-range AMRAAM missiles. But in a slower, close-range tangle - which pilots call a "merge" - the bigger and heavier F-22 is at a disadvantage. "As soon as you get to the merge (assuming you survive to get there). . . the Typhoon doesn't necessarily have to fear the F-22," Gruene said.
Two other German officers, Col. Andreas Pfeiffer and Maj. Marco Gumbrecht, noted in the same report that the F-22′s capabilities are “overwhelming” when it comes to modern, long-range combat as the stealth fighter is designed to engage multiple enemies well-beyond the pilot’s natural field of vision — mostly while the F-22 is still out of the other plane’s range. Grumbrecht said that even if his planes did everything right, they weren’t able to get within 20 miles of the next-generation jets before being targeted.
Last edited by thestaggy; 08-08-2012 at 12:33 PM.
It is most likely that higher level issues will determine the outcome of an air war. RAND did a comparison of the F-22 against the Su-35M where they assumed the F-22 would have a 12:1 advantage (without saying how they came to that figure). The conclusion was that the F-22 would lose. The reason was that this type of engagement would be between the USAF and China. The vulnerability of the air bases close enough to China would make the combat unwinnable.
Pilot skill & prepardness is a factor that has been overlooked in that assumption as well. US pilots are arguably the most combat ready pilots in the world. The US has had near constant military practice - in all facets - since the Second World War. WW2, Korea, Vietnam, the Balkans, Iraq I, Afghanistan and Iraq II have all seen significant air operations.
In a US-China war I believe the US will easily secure naval and air dominance but they have no hope in hell of ever conducting a successful invasion. Barring of course that they can even afford it.
Last edited by thestaggy; 08-08-2012 at 02:32 PM.
As I stated earlier it can be compared to a symphony orchestra with the battlespace commander as the conductor. Every instrument has its time, place and purpose. Each instrument has unique abilities that together must work in harmony to make beautiful music. The one instrument may do more in one piece than in another but in the end (in the whole) the one is not more important than the other. The war will be like orchestras competing and the battlespace commanders will select their symphonies. The F22 will have its role and its stengths and weaknesses will determine its place/time. I love The Hog ... my favourite plane ... and it still has it place despite many USAF general's efforts to mothball it. The F18 has been upgrade like crazy. Then there will be the F35 variants, and the old Eagles that will be around for a while still. And the F16. And the drones. And the ..... (there are so many). Consider all these as part of one symphony. The integration of all these to work kn harmony (right time/place/purpose) is what matters. And then we're not even talking about the weapon systems that are invovled ... and the electronic warfare ... and ... and ....
And then there is asymetrical warfare where all this change ... where America is learning lessons the hard way for some time now.
And then we know all this matter little if we ever get to a nuclear showdown. And it need not be nation against nation.
Last edited by BeVonk!; 08-08-2012 at 05:33 PM.
So ... where does that leave our Gripens?
Nice for fly-overs during ceremonies and airshows. About it.
Bevonk! if its going to make you feel happy the UK (Empire Test Pilots' School) uses Gripens for training.
My question is how can a Typhoon pilot get close enough to dogfight a F22 and exploit its weaknesses ?