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Thread: The implications of overpopulation are terrifying. But will we listen to them?

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by chrisc4290 View Post
    I agree, we are doomed. Start selling up and go to live on top of a mountain.

    Just maybe there will be a serious pandemic like H1N1 that will decimate large parts of the world, say a 30% reduction in the number of people living. That is the only way in which we can solve this. And the asteroid of course. Just as long as it doesn't affect my part of the world (which is what all 7 billion of us are thinking)
    I sincerely hope this is an attempt at trolling.
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    We have large amounts of many resources, continue to make improvements in food production and are actively researching new food sources. We're also always improving our resource efficiency and recovery of materials. There are some things that currently require oil, fertiliser not being one of them, but we're still finding and extracting more in addition to research into making petroleum. The earth has vast amounts of unused land. There's really no basis for pessimism.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxibox View Post
    There are some things that currently require oil, fertiliser not being one of them, but we're still finding and extracting more in addition to research into making petroleum. The earth has vast amounts of unused land. There's really no basis for pessimism.
    I beg your pardon? Are you serious? This fantastic modern agricultural system that is the only thing keeping us from starving is dependent completely on oil. It is a system that collapses when only one part fails. But before oil runs out it will get more and more expensive. Every facet of modern food production is dependant and thus affected: Machinery to plough, harvest, sort. Trucks, trains and planes to distribute. Factories to process and trucks, trains, planes and ships to get it to the supermarkets and cars to get it to the table.

    Oil oil oil. There really is no basis for pessimism, you are correct. Pessimism just leads to us doing nothing. Waking up to reality sooner rather than later, a bit of foresight and planning, will perhaps save the day.

  4. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxibox View Post
    We have large amounts of many resources, continue to make improvements in food production and are actively researching new food sources. We're also always improving our resource efficiency and recovery of materials. There are some things that currently require oil, fertiliser not being one of them, but we're still finding and extracting more in addition to research into making petroleum. The earth has vast amounts of unused land. There's really no basis for pessimism.
    I agree, as I pointed out earlier in this thread, there have been tons of 'overpopulation doom predictions' and none of them have come to pass. If oil supply runs low then humans will just find new ways to innovate and get by in life, we have always managed to adapt and solve our problems. Human resources lie in our ability to use and reuse our resources more effectively.


    When I was a student at York University in the early 1970s, there was one must-read book on first-year course lists: The Population Bomb, by Paul Ehrlich.

    It was full of prognostications about devastating overpopulation that would cause the world to run out of land and resources.

    The book became a best-seller at a time when people were becoming environmentally conscious, women's liberation and miniskirts were upending the traditional role of wives and daughters, and people traded in their oversized Cadillacs for Pintos.

    Everything that opposed the status quo was deemed to be counterculture and, therefore, esteemed.

    Of course, Ehrlich's predictions about millions of people dying in the 1970s and 1980s due to starvation and other ills seemed excessive, even then.

    Demographers and social scientists ripped apart his arguments. Regardless, we are still thinking about overpopulation today, 43 years after Ehrlich's book was first published.

    National Geographic recently noted the world's population will hit 7 billion sometime this year — perhaps in China, India or Africa, the most populous places on Earth — and it is projected to reach 9 billion in 2045.

    Noting that water tables are falling, soil is eroding, glaciers are melting and fish stocks are vanishing, the magazine asked: “Can the planet take the strain?”

    No, says Lester Brown, president of the Earth Policy Institute in Washington.

    “The signs that our civilization is in trouble are multiplying,” Brown writes in his new book World on the Edge: How to prevent Environmental and Economic Collapse.

    “No previous civilization has survived the ongoing destruction of its natural supports. Nor will ours.”

    If so, why have such predictions of doom always missed the mark?

    Since the time of Noah and his Ark, we have been worried about population growth.

    The Babylonians held a census to determine the size of their population, so did the ancient Chinese and Egyptians. In Tuscany they tried to determine population for tax purposes in 1427.

    But it was in Quebec, then known as New France, where the first official census was held by intendant Jean Talon, who later became governor. Talon discovered in 1665 that there were twice as many men in the colony as women.

    From its first settlement Canada faced a different dilemma than other parts of the world: lots of land but too few people. So we opened our doors to immigrants, to farm, to build railroads, to buttress our cities. And we are still doing that today, as our birth rate falls and mortality rises. We are trying to avert the problem of Japan, which does not allow much migration, that of too many old people, not enough young.

    In 1798, the father of demography, Thomas Malthus, published An Essay on the Principle of Population, suggesting overpopulation will lead to starvation and that “premature death must in some shape or other visit the human race” due to war, pestilence, plague and famine. The British prime minister at the time, William Pitt the Younger, withdrew a bill he had championed for the extension of relief for the poor after reading Malthus and thereafter conducted a census.

    Ottawa investigative journalist Dan Gardner notes in his recent book, Future Babble — Why Expert Predictions Fail and Why We Believe Them Anyway, that Malthus' “conclusions were based on careful observation of past centuries, and his logic was sound.”

    But his forecast never came to be.

    “In fact,” Gardner writes, “what happened was pretty much the opposite of what Malthus expected, as population, food production and economies all grew rapidly — thanks to advances in science and technology Malthus did not foresee. One might reasonably have predicted a century or two after Malthus people would have learned from his example to be much more cautious about using demography to predict the future. But that prediction would have been wrong. As they usually are.”

    Among those who failed to heed Malthus' example are several of today's well-known environmentalists, including Lester Brown, Joel E. Cohen and, notably, Ehrlich.

    Gardner does not refute that unchecked population growth will cause problems. But he notes that predictions usually don't come true. And he suggests some of Erhlich's ideas are downright funny: “He said we were bombarded with consumer electrical goods and we should forget that entire industry because it is going to be wiped out.”

    Last week, Brown said in a teleconference that we are in the “process of destroying our natural support systems,” our soil, our fisheries, our farms and our climate and we are headed “for serious trouble.”

    Food prices will rise, he said, due to floods in China, Pakistan and the southern U.S. In his new book World on the Edge: How to Prevent Environmental and Economic Collapse, Brown notes: “The average temperature in Moscow for July (2010) was a scarcely believable 14 degrees Fahrenheit above the norm.” This led to thousands of fires and smoke and “was like watching a horror film,” Brown says. “Over 56,000 people died in the extreme heat.”

    Cohen, who wrote a book called How Many People Can the Earth Support? in 1995, says in an interview that 70 per cent of all the water we capture is used for agriculture and “a tremendous amount of that is wasted, running into the ground.” He also notes that cities occupy 3 per cent of all habitable land and if the population of the world rises to 9 billion the expanding cities will sprawl into the little arable land that we have left.

    “There are a billion people who are hungry today, we have children who need protein. In the United States half of the pregnancies are unintended. By 2050, we will have 6 billion people living in our cities.” And that means Canadian cities, too, he says.

    Canadian Thomas Homer-Dixon adds in his book The Upside of Down: “The claim that we don't have to worry any more about population growth is entirely premature. Commentators who make this claim misinterpret and take out of context recent data on fertility trends. In fact, the world's population will continue to grow rapidly even while birth rates in most countries are falling and populations of some countries are even shrinking.”

    Monica Boyd, a sociologist at the University of Toronto, says some academics believe predictions such as Ehrlich's have generally failed because human innovation has made up for growing population — finding new ways to grow crops, organize cities and manage traffic.

    “Optimists point out that the human race has always been incredibly innovative in terms of coming up with substitute modes of survival.”

    On the phone, Paul Ehrlich talks as if he has a Duracell battery planted in his jaw. He barely stops to breathe.

    The author of The Population Bomb has been a professor at Stanford for 52 years and, at age 78, still spends his days refuting critics and defending his theories first articulated in his 1968 book — one he claims was too actually too positive.

    “When I wrote The Population Bomb I was more optimistic on a lot of fronts. We thought things could be changed but there has been no change in consumption by the rich. Rich countries have essentially extracted the riches from poor countries and left them to rot.

    “I also underestimated the immediate impact of the green revolution on food supply. We had a short-term increase (in yields) and Third World farmers were able to adopt the agricultural techniques of First World countries.

    “We didn't know about ozone depletion or global warming. We wrote about plagues but we didn't know about AIDS. The book was too optimistic in every direction.”

    He does concede this point: “Expert predictions do fail. But we are stuck with them. If I was able to predict everything, I would have bought Bora Bora and lived there.”

    One thing he says, with certainty, is that the projection the world will grow by 2 billion over the next 40 years is going to cause more hardship than we can understand.

    Then he muses: “If we had another 1,000 years to solve all our problems, I'd relax.”
    overpopulation will only be a problem if technology cannot keep up with the increase in population, given the amount of new technology in the last 5-10 years I don't see any reason why we should be worried.

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by Freshy-ZN View Post
    I beg your pardon? Are you serious? This fantastic modern agricultural system that is the only thing keeping us from starving is dependent completely on oil. It is a system that collapses when only one part fails. But before oil runs out it will get more and more expensive. Every facet of modern food production is dependant and thus affected: Machinery to plough, harvest, sort. Trucks, trains and planes to distribute. Factories to process and trucks, trains, planes and ships to get it to the supermarkets and cars to get it to the table.

    Oil oil oil. There really is no basis for pessimism, you are correct. Pessimism just leads to us doing nothing. Waking up to reality sooner rather than later, a bit of foresight and planning, will perhaps save the day.
    if oil supplies run low then we will find an alternative for it, necessity is the mother of all innovation. We didn't really starve after the world ran low on peat, we just moved on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peat

    Biofuel is also another option (if the world health idiots can just think a bit further than their skull that is).

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freshy-ZN View Post
    I beg your pardon? Are you serious? This fantastic modern agricultural system that is the only thing keeping us from starving is dependent completely on oil. It is a system that collapses when only one part fails. But before oil runs out it will get more and more expensive. Every facet of modern food production is dependant and thus affected: Machinery to plough, harvest, sort. Trucks, trains and planes to distribute. Factories to process and trucks, trains, planes and ships to get it to the supermarkets and cars to get it to the table.
    Not that I said we don't use oil in food production, but so what? Even if oil were essential, in other words there was no possible way to ever use anything else, we'd only have to concentrate on improving extraction, as there are vast quantities still in the earth, and making it ourselves.

    Waking up to reality sooner rather than later, a bit of foresight and planning, will perhaps save the day.
    That's not what population doom-mongering is about though. It's about impeding progress, or even taking us backwards.

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxibox View Post
    That's not what population doom-mongering is about though. It's about impeding progress, or even taking us backwards.
    I dont propose we stop progress or find more efficient ways to extract oil, or use oil or produce food etc. I propose we dont use these as excuses to blindly increase populations. Imagine if we could get stable in terms of population while improving our tech? Wouldnt that allow the standard of everybody on this planet to increase? Wouldnt that be a more sensible option?

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    It doesnt help when the RCC is punting no contraceptives

    I know in my wifes country, where the Roman Catholic Church has significant power. Theyre fking up the country. The progressives are trying to pass a Responsible Reproduction bill and a whole lot of men who know very little about reproduction or families are intentionally blocking this bill on religious grounds.
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    I think innovation will keep pace with the growth. By the time the oil runs out renewable energy in the form of solar power will have taken over. Power plants in space and all that in the next 100 years. Non renewable sources of energy have been the way the human race moved forward for eons. There is a good documentary by that Scottish scientist based on the elements. Check out out the fire one. It tells how England once used to be mostly forests but the trees where largely removed for energy over a long period of development. Following that it was coal. Now it is a combination of oil/gas/coal. The next non-renewable source is Uranium. Now that demand is outstripping supply on those non renewable energy sources more and more companies are innovating in the solar space and the cost of solar power is dropping about 25% per year. Solar just passed Diesel electricity generation in terms of cost and in another 10 years will be competing with Nuclear energy. In 25 years even the cheapest electricity generation (Coal burning power stations) will be obsolete. So seriously, relax. The other good news is that when all this happens a large portion of the issues we are having in the middle east will vanish as without oil funding the terror networks will loose most of their funding and Israel will be able to sigh a big sigh of relief. The Muslim world will then have to advance and modernize or face becoming the equivalent of central Africa economically.

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    People saying "nah, we'll invent new tech, and new power" are only promoting wishful thinking.
    what if we don't? you see, your plan is to just hope we get some magical power source...but what if we don't? your whole plan hinges on this *possibility*

    yes, it might happen..... but I think not needing to rely on that magical new technology is a better way of playing your bets.

    You might be right and we can sustain 15 billion, on even 20 billion people with new tech... i'm sure some of you would like that.
    or I might be right, and we have a few billion more people that are hungry, that will make today's crime stats look like a walk in the park.


    TL;DR: Don't bargain on some sort of new magical technology that will automatically save us and make our problems go away.
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  11. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by noxibox View Post
    Not that I said we don't use oil in food production, but so what? Even if oil were essential, in other words there was no possible way to ever use anything else, we'd only have to concentrate on improving extraction, as there are vast quantities still in the earth, and making it ourselves.
    Oil peak prophets are just as bad as the overpopulation ones.

  12. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garson007 View Post
    Oil peak prophets are just as bad as the overpopulation ones.
    I believe the oil guys more than the overpopulation guys though...

    Either way, when we start running out of food, or oil, or air, or water, or what ever else - there will be mass war, and that will lower the population numbers to sustainable levels again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2012 View Post
    I believe the oil guys more than the overpopulation guys though...

    Either way, when we start running out of food, or oil, or air, or water, or what ever else - there will be mass war, and that will lower the population numbers to sustainable levels again.
    also remember that running out of oil, technically means running out of food, too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keeper View Post
    What happened at Easter island? well their main problem was that they consumed a finite resource until there was nothing left.
    Yep, they happily chopped down every last single tree until there was nothing left
    (They transported huge stones on palm trees for their Gods)

    I've found this link for those that are interested in their demise:
    http://www.unmuseum.org/easteri.htm

    Humans can't think of the big picture, we only care for ourselves..... it's a pity
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keeper View Post
    Let's use Easter Island as an example, because it's an isolated island... no abandoning the area and moving on, since we can't do that with earth either.
    So lets think of Easter Island as a "small earth".

    What happened at Easter island? well their main problem was that they consumed a finite resource until there was nothing left.
    Yep, they happily chopped down every last single tree until there was nothing left
    (They transported huge stones on palm trees for their Gods)

    I've found this link for those that are interested in their demise:
    http://www.unmuseum.org/easteri.htm


    Humans can't think of the big picture, we only care for ourselves..... it's a pity
    The populations on the Easter Islands were destroyed by slavers.
    I believe Ayn Rand's first love poem went: Roses are red, violets are blue, finish this poem yourself you dependent parasite".
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