trafeye, I've had the same intellectual battles that you've had within myself, but you and I have obviously come to totally opposite conclusions. We are a microcosm for the world, I guess.
Off topic a bit, but man has really got it wrong with his interpretation of religion, like you say, and is killing himself because of it. I want nothing to do with it personally.
ant5, to be a Christian just to stay out of hell is living through hell already (a religion based on fear). To be a Christian becuase of who God really is - and being besieged by His love and grace - that is heaven already. I will never recommend the Christian faith just to stay out of hell. I would much rather people find God and forget about hell.
There is only one way to avoid criticism: Do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing. ~ Aristotle
Thanks for your reply Trafeye. My mind, after being pretty sure god doesn't exist for the most part of my life, is pretty much made up yes. I'd still like to believe though.Originally Posted by Trafeye
I don't agree with you on this. When I was going to church the whole experience always felt forced to me. The religion never made sense to me, and nobody could ever explain to me why the Christian god was more relevant or real than other gods. In my personal life and from my own thinking I simply couldn't wrap my idea around it. Not believing is easy and natural. I don't constantly sit and think about it, I just get on with my life. It has no real impact on my life and requires nothing of me not to believe, whereas believing comes with a host of rituals and habits.
Once again I don't agree. No atheist can help that he / she is intelligent. I don't believe myself to be superior to people that believe. In fact I think you'll find that atheists overall are probably some of the most down to Earth people you'll meet. If anything, Christianity promotes superiority. It tells us that Christians are somehow superior to other human beings. That all us idiot non-believers will burn in the fires of hell and be tortured for all eternity because the Christian god decided to give us brains that question everything. To a large extent it's not my fault that I find it to difficult to believe... surely if there is a god he designed me to be this way? Why would he do that?
Also keep in mind that for large parts of history the church kept the masses from even being able to read the Bible. It wasn't always available to all.
The faith brings sense to your existence only because you don't believe everything you achieve here is for nothing. It doesn't mean the worth that you feel is real, only that you need to feel it. Atheism is not a religion. I don't even think about being an atheist unless I debate it with others. It takes no effort on my part not to believe because for me that is the natural way of things. Believing in a god goes against how my brain functions to a large extent. It doesn't bring me peace to ignore every objection my brain comes up with, it makes me more stressed.
I hear you, but what IJ is suggesting is that we should believe in god just in case he turns out to be real, a sort of "insurance policy"...i can't buy into that logic.
This doesn't surprise me in the least since people love doing what they're not supposed to. Go ahead and ban Paganism in South Africa and I almost guarantee you gigantic growth in Pagan numbers. It has nothing to do with the religion being so great, but almost serves as a protest action instead. China is especially susceptable to such a phenomenon simply because their society has been very conservative and supressive for a long time now.
Not quite. Our dominee in fact suggested that the Christian god was one that would encourage you to take a cookie out of the jar when your parents weren't looking. A benevolent and friendly being that enjoyed seeing people flourish and prosper. It's too bad reality doesn't reflect this god.
I am truly glad for you if this is the case. Every person deserves peace and happiness. I would just remind you that the happy go lucky way of Christianity that is available today wasn't available until maybe the last 50 years or so. In the past many people have been tortured to death for not taking everything in the bible literally. In many ways modern Christianity doesn't resemble the religion that started up 2000 years ago in any way.
If this brings you comfort then so be it. For me this is a way of avoiding ones own mortality. You'd rather not think of it, and religion becomes the straw puppet between you and reality. I wish I had the luxury of so easily dismissing the world that I see, but I can't. I distinctly remember the first time I saw a picture of a harlequin baby as the moment when I finally decided there could be no god.
That's ludicrious. You mean to tell me, you ditch everything He has said, and commanded, and you expect a free reign with no strings attached ? That's crazy.
It's a guarentee for a better life, as per the God of the Christian Bible.
ho hum.........
ant5, talking about being honest ... one of the most precious things I discovered when I "rediscovered" God was that He is patient with people challenging Him - those asking the tough questions and being sceptical. The God I learned to know insists on honesty - and hates hypocricy and lies. God knows our limitations and loves us through it. God allows challenges - even violent ones. If you were to read what happened to Jacob when he wrestled with God you will find a God that is big enough to handle man's objections (and sins). God knows what is in our minds so we may just as well tell him - and by telling him we start a relationship. Faith is not being in a potato state - but being in an active relationship - even a wrestle match - with God. God blesses those who wrestles with him - as He did with Jacob.
There is only one way to avoid criticism: Do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing. ~ Aristotle
trafeye, by the sounds of things the god you believe in is nothing like the god that is preached about on TV or spoken about by most christians I have had discussions with, and I guess this is where my problem with religion lies...
it is just so bendable and able to be interpreted in so many ways. Why hasn't all (or at least most) of mankind come to know the same god as you have? It just seems too easy for an individual to mould an image or an interpretation that they would be happy with.
Like Tmoose says, it wasn't always like this, that you could choose which attributes you would like your god to have...
TMoose said "It's too bad reality doesn't reflect this god".
Current reality will not reflect what God is truly like. The reality we live in is not how God originally created us and the universe we live in - and what He intended it to be. That is exactly the point of it all. God made it perfect - but man chose the other tree - and is now enduring the consequences of its decision. Man had it all but wanted more - so God took much of what they had away. The mess we're in is all our own fault - and not God's. So when you see tragedy see man as its origin - not God. Mankind has messed-up so badly its not funny - and instead of grabbing a helping hand being offered to get out of the mess - it wants more control without God. The more mankind believes it can save itself the more it falls into chaos and dispair. The world we now live in is the world we created ourselves. We must stop blaming God - and accept resposibility ourselves (the start of all successful recovery processes).
There is only one way to avoid criticism: Do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing. ~ Aristotle
But surely if god is omniscient as the bible claims he is then he knew from the beginning that we'd pick the other tree. The question then becomes why god designed human beings to suffer, and whether a being that creates things simply to torture them deserves to be worshipped. The argument that human kind is responsible only becomes a real option if you accept that god isn't all knowing. If he is not, is he still worth worshipping?
This is the bit of Tmoose's post I was referring to:
"I would just remind you that the happy go lucky way of Christianity that is available today wasn't available until maybe the last 50 years or so. In the past many people have been tortured to death for not taking everything in the bible literally. In many ways modern Christianity doesn't resemble the religion that started up 2000 years ago in any way".
But I most certainly am not blaming god for the mess we find ourselves in, how could I? I don't even believe he exists. Of course man is to blame for whatever happens on earth that is within his control, that is obvious. But as for "Acts of God", why are they called that in popular culture (and insurance terminology)? My belief is that these events would happen anyway, whether man was here on earth or not, and in spite of what he may or may not have done.
A lot of religious people get frustrated by this point of view, just as I get weary of being told that i must believe in order to be saved...
Does He ever say if you obey Him, you will suffer ? We only suffer because of our incapabilities to be perfect as He is. He wants us to be perfect, but in order to do that, we have to go through a process of "cleansing". That's our suffering.
He gives us free will, and we are responsible. We are not robots. We are responsible for our own actions.
Free will is impossible if god knows everything before it happens. That would mean at the very beginning in creating the universe, he would know exactly what would happen in the future depending on which way the lit the match so to speak. That would mean free will is actually an illusion and that we pretty much are robots. Free will can only exist if god doesn't know beforehand what we will choose. If he doesn't know beforehand he is not omniscient.
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