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Thread: MyBroadband representation at the Consumer Advisory Panel workshop today

  1. #1
    Banned Debbie's Avatar
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    Default MyBroadband representation at the Consumer Advisory Panel workshop today

    Hi all

    I have just come back from a workshop at ICASA on the draft Consumer Advisory Panel (CAP) regulations. MyBroadband was invited by ICASA to participate in this, and rpm asked if I would represent our view at ICASA today.

    As per my understanding, CAP is primarily envisiaged as a group of people who will serve as advisors to Council on draft regulations, licence conditions as well as any broad telecoms-broadcasting-postal consumer issues. The CAP is not going to be a body who consumers can complain about their specific issue to- that's the CCC (the Complaints and Compliance Committee).

    Unfortunately (or luckily) the Electronic Communications Act (ECA) is very vague and non-prescriptive of what exactly the Consumer Advisory Panel is supposed to do. The legislation as per ECA only says that a consumer panel must be set up, and that ICASA must make some umbrella regulations giving the CAP a mandate. It is these such draft regulations which were under discussion today. (The Consumer Advisory Panel is impacted by other legislation, but I will not go into detail about that here).

    Telkom didn't submit comments on the draft regulations so they were not there today, and I think we were all rather happy about that . On the other hand, it could be interpreted as Telkom giving the ECA and consumers the middle finger. Apart from me, the other 15 or so participants were from MTN, Vodacom, Cell C and ICASA.

    I have to interpret what was said today in the context of the formal written comments submitted by the operators, which I have only seen summaries of as yet. But for now to those who know a little about the CAP draft regulations or have read them- it seems ICASA remains somewhat unfocussed about who and how people are going to be appointed to the Panel, and how provincial/disabled/special interest interests will be ensured representation. In this instance, they are treating their own draft regulations as 'draft' draft regulations. At the start, it was proposed by ICASA that one person per province be picked. I was fiercely against this- although it sounds like a nice idea, it's entirely unworkable. Basically there is a lot of confusion on who is going to constitute the panel- (eg. one operator said it didn't matter to them whether they had a rep appointed to the panel; another fiercely mantained that this was their strongest concern). Save to say that ICASA is shopping for a fair way to codify requirement's about selection to the panel. If you can think of a fair way to do this (within the context of the national needs of SA), please PM me or post about it, because if we don't come up with a very fair sounding system then they are going to put in their own --> and on this topic, I don't think it is wise to submit that we alienate operators from representation on the panel. This route has rarely worked. If the CAP is going to make any difference to the plight of consumers, there needs to be participation from operators. I argued that the panel should allow for operator representation, but be weighted in favour of representatives who, as a group, represent neither a commercial nor a governmental interest group.

    Definition of "consumers": I am worried about this the more I think about it. Save to say I learnt a lesson about law through the ADSL Regulations backstabbing- definitions are extremely important!! ICASA is in the market for a good definition of what is to be meant by 'consumer'. So please, suggestions on this.

    I suggested an additional section in the regulations dealing with Transparency and Accountability. I argued a very solid case for it and made some good suggestions about the hows, wheres and whys, Eg. I proposed that the Right to officially and publicly dissent with Council be codified. With regard to tansparancy, one such example I suggested was a webpage with the CAP's official written opinion or submission on any issue which they made be called or required to give opinion on, and not limited thereto. In this way consumers with access to the internet can see whether their interests are being appropriately represented or not. I also gave an appropriate schpell about access to and right to comment to the media- the usual arguments.

    The draft regulations propose that the CAP be headed by a chairperson, who will be appointed by the Chairperson of Council (Paris Mashile). I proposed that a line of authority that can be traced directly back to the minister is unacceptable It was agreed that the chairperson of the CAP should be nominated from within the members of the Panel, and a Councillor noted that the Chairperson of ICASA should have no role in appointing any member of the Panel to the position of chair or deputy chair within the CAP.

    On the whole I felt good about my participation on MyADSL's behalf. I was my usual motor-mouth- I spoke a lot, dare say I dominated the airtime, but it was all necessary. It was very important that we participate in this as consumers, and I am upbeat about where the Consumer Advisory Panel can potentially can be taken.

    Debbie
    Last edited by Debbie; 06-08-2007 at 05:29 PM.

  2. #2

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    Great job! Thanks Debbie!!!

  3. #3
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    thanks debbie2

    //my invite must have got lost in the post

  4. #4

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    Good one Debbie - only have one point to make which I will post later - other than that did they not leave the ' R ' out
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    Banned Debbie's Avatar
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    dominic- if you're free tomorrow get your ass on a plane and get to the boardroom at C block, 9am.

    ICASA have ostensibly invited everyone who submitted comments- and funny enough this morning I was wondering if I would see you there.

    We received a handout containing a summary of received comments- your views were adequately represented in this summary (I can scan and mail to you...?), though I agree it is a pity you were left out of this discussion. I have requested a follow-up workshop... maybe I should 'harass' for a follow-up?

    btw, I used ICASA's internet this morning (to log on to MyADSL- hehe) and I was very surprised to experience dial-up speeds.

    dominic coming back to you I actually have a heck of a lot I'd like to talk over with you wrt CAP regulations.

    Oh, other things.... although regulations are not final, they are putting out the call for public nominations soon. Yes, a public nomination process has popped up out of nowhere, apparantly!

    wrt funding- it was difficult to get into this given the vague framework that the draft regulations represent.
    Last edited by Debbie; 06-08-2007 at 08:08 PM.

  6. #6

    Default Blind leading the blind

    A while back Mrs Dragon said that she saw a picture of a blind person taking their guide dog to a call centre were they worked. The thing is, why does this person have to travel to work, they could do their job at home via an ADSL connection, especially if local bandwidth is supposed to be un-capped.

    In fact a lot of people could do their work from home, you have to laugh when you hear a local DJ going on about how the don't use a car day does not work for them, but then another DJ does a show all the way from America, they really do put their mind to the problems at hand.

    Being able to ' work ' from home you do not have the expense of travel, and the danger of travel, you can keep an eye on your house, look after the kids, pets, etc (Alvin Toffler has some good ideas on this)

    Why travel to Johannesburg when you can have a virtual meeting, a Communications authority that uses communications, now there's a thought. If they really want to give the disabled and the disadvantaged a better deal, then they need to get their act together and stop playing games

    BTW This is not news to ICASA...
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    Banned Debbie's Avatar
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    DragonLogos, I quote another forumite: "never ascribe to malice what can be adequately explained by simple ineptitude". Fact is CAP regulations don't really feature all that highly on ICASA's list of priorities. Their weakness can be our advantage, if you catch my drift.

  8. #8

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    So, the CAP is going to help get rid of "the cap" ?

    Am i missing something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by sin_x View Post
    So, the CAP is going to help get rid of "the cap" ?

    Am i missing something?
    Please go fool around elsewhere. This is a serious thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dominic View Post
    thanks debbie2

    //my invite must have got lost in the post
    We got a personal call from Icasa ... sorry to rub it in Dominic but it's not everyday that Icasa call you .

    Debbie thanks for going and representing us and thanks for the feedback, much appreciated!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cara View Post
    We got a personal call from Icasa ... sorry to rub it in Dominic but it's not everyday that Icasa call you .
    yeah yeah yeah - i am raising seven different types of hell about this

    debbie - will call youse in the morning - but not tooooooo early

  12. #12

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    The formation of the Consumer Advisory Panel (CAP) is a good idea. However, for some mistaken reason I had thought that ICASA were meant to be doing that job (representing and protecting the consumer). Maybe another advisory body with teeth made up of CONSUMERS could work.
    I think a consumer is anyone who is an end user and I'd be more inclined to listen to those who pay for service.
    The ECA may be vague about what a Consumer Advisory Panel is but Im sure it is not a panel made up of industry players seeking to represent their interests. It is not a providers advisory panel (PAP). Most big players have forums and mechanisms to influence and keep our market carved up amongst themselves. In an effort to not alienate the industry...the CAP should have the ability to summon representatives from relevent telcoms sectors for input on discussions pertinent to them. No input can be taken as aquiescing with the CAPs decisions.
    Telecomunications is a national issue and therefore election to the consumer panel should not be influneced by region.
    In terms of electing representatives I would like to see ex industry players, people with clue and representative (easier said than done) Possibly an ad in the press asking for representatives but I do think a peer review type thing could work. I too do not think that ICASA should have too much sway on who is elected mainly because they seem not to be competent protectors of the community and because they are (Via the ECA) obliged to ask consumers for help and this seems as good a thing as any to listen to the consumer.
    Thanks Debbie2 and all others trying to look after us consumers.

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Debbie2 View Post
    Please go fool around elsewhere. This is a serious thread.
    Please do accept my apologies.
    On a serious note, I do hope you are able to make a positive difference.


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    Banned Debbie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommygun View Post
    The formation of the Consumer Advisory Panel (CAP) is a good idea. However, for some mistaken reason I had thought that ICASA were meant to be doing that job (representing and protecting the consumer). Maybe another advisory body with teeth made up of CONSUMERS could work.
    Tommygun, lay to rest all hope of an advisory body with teeth. Legislation doesn't give CAP autonomy from Council. Council will not be obliged to take CAP's opinions into account. I think the most we can hope for in terms of autonomy is to secure the right for CAP to publicly dissent with Council.

    I think a consumer is anyone who is an end user and I'd be more inclined to listen to those who pay for service.
    The definition that is currently in mind goes something like this-
    Consumer: A naturalistic person who is an end-user or potential end-user of electronic communications or postal services.

    One of the operators noted the need to use the term 'naturalistic person' as opposed to 'juristic person', thus excluding companies/organisations from the definition of 'consumer'. The same operator was keen to include the term 'potential end-user'.

    The ECA may be vague about what a Consumer Advisory Panel is but Im sure it is not a panel made up of industry players seeking to represent their interests. It is not a providers advisory panel (PAP). Most big players have forums and mechanisms to influence and keep our market carved up amongst themselves. In an effort to not alienate the industry...the CAP should have the ability to summon representatives from relevent telcoms sectors for input on discussions pertinent to them.
    CAP will never have the ability to summon operators for input. Even if they were given this right in the regulations, in practice it won't work- Telkom regularly ignores instruction from Council, so we could expect them to ignore instuction from CAP. This is part of the reason why I am for representation from operators on CAP- to force them to formally participate. Another part of the reason I am for representation for operators is because they have information. Getting them to share this info is another story though

    Telecomunications is a national issue and therefore election to the consumer panel should not be influneced by region.
    I agree. Furthermore, if it was done via region, CAP would never gain momentum on anything, since everyone would live in a different province!! ICASA's concerns were that the poor and the rural would not be represented if participants were not selected on a regional basis. I proposed that instead of enforcing ridiculous & wasteful 'provincial' requirements, rather make requirement for rural, urban and peri-urban representation.

    In terms of electing representatives I would like to see ex industry players, people with clue and representative (easier said than done).
    Unfortunately, and as you have noticed, this is unlikely to happen. Operators continue to poach (I was told of one person who had their salary doubled overnight when moving from ICASA's employ to an operator's employ).

    Possibly an ad in the press asking for representatives but I do think a peer review type thing could work. I too do not think that ICASA should have too much sway on who is elected mainly because they seem not to be competent protectors of the community and because they are (Via the ECA) obliged to ask consumers for help and this seems as good a thing as any to listen to the consumer.
    A call for public nominations will be put out soon. I think the ICASA Council will be selecting the representatives.

    Thanks Debbie2 and all others trying to look after us consumers.
    Thanks Tommygun, I know you do your bit too

    Btw, a Councillor mentioned that the CCC lacks anyone with substantial ADSL-knowledge There was talk of getting in outside advisors with regard to the upcoming CCC case on ADSL Regs/Telkom's non-compliance with.

    Quote Originally Posted by sin_x View Post
    Please do accept my apologies.
    On a serious note, I do hope you are able to make a positive difference.
    Thanks sin_x, we're trying

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    Party Liaison Shake&Bake's Avatar
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    Shot Debbie and all the rest - this information is really vital and I like all the rest appreciate the effort you all are putting into the matter.

    Change no matter how small will make a difference.

    Hopefully representation on CAP will be just and the members of CAP will hopefully show some balls!
    Shake&Bake™. That, just happened!

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