‘Christian Resistance’ leader arrested for alleged terrorism plot

greg0205

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All good and well BUT the stream of enemy actually reached the wagons at points, if you had multiple streams or even sustained streams the cannons could have been spread too thinly to be as effective. Also if the focus of the cannon shifted with the head of the stream the rest could have bulged and broken through in between even if all three cannons had one focus.

I think you over-estimate the capability of grapeshot from ONLY three cannon in the face of thousands of melee troops especially since these were not particularly fast loading cannon unless I am mistaken. They would have delayed but not not stopped a determined push as long as the push remained scattered and loose enough.

People have this idea that it was a tightly massed formation but that likely was not the case.

You also under-estimate the speed at which Impi's could move as well as their maneuverability, they could at short distances easily outpace hoses sometimes.

Even considering the actual casualties, the Zulu gave up before they technically had to. The only real problem they faced was their will to fight being broken, partly apparently because of supposed supernatural activity. There are accounts of the Impi's becoming terrified of "white beings" moving behind the wagons if I remember correctly and this alone made them start to rout at least a few times when they managed to get up to the wagons..... not something you will find in most history books...... I have something about this somewhere at home I think.
There's a fundamental problem with this argument. We could have similar discussions on Thermopylae, Stalingrad, Samar, Arnhem, Shiroyama and on and on and on and on...

The battles have been fought. They're done. They're over.

Theoretically a million things *might* have effected the results... They didn't.

The boers won at Blood River. The Persians won at Thermopylae. The Russians won at Stalingrad. Americans turned the Japanese back at Samar. The Germans retook Arnhem bridge... You see where I'm going with this?
 

rambo919

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On the fifteenth of December 1838, the four hundred and sixty two Boer Pioneers found themselves in a laager consisting of fifty seven wagons. That evening they were praying and singing Psalms to the glory of God; four hundred and sixty two men awaiting an attack by the thousands of Zulus. Then when dawn broke on Sunday the sixteenth of December 1838, the first wonder happened. The mist (that dampens the gun powder) cleared away and the sunbroke through. They saw the Zulu regiments storming, and literally thousands upon thousands of warriors surrounded the Laager charging down on them.

After the first shots, they had to wait for the smoke of the gun powder to clear. Then the second wonder happened when the smoke cleared. Something made the Zulu regiments hesitate in bewilderment. The regiments consisting of the younger warriors started fleeing, only to be slaughtered by the older veterans as they fled. Now these younger regiments knew that if they fled, they would be killed by the older warriors. The survivors related after the battle that they saw thousands of glowing giant men all around the laager that scared them into panic and scared them so much that they fled into the arms of the waiting indunas who slaughtered the younger warriors. Just around the laager three thousand corpses of dead Zulus was counted.

The third wonder was that the hundreds of oxen stood quietly while the guns roared around them. In ordinary circumstances these animals would have stampeded, trampling everyone in their way to death. And the fleeing Zulus did not stop running. When Dingaan got the message of what happened, he burnt his capital and ran with them to present day Swaziland where they were killed by the Swazis. The mighty but evil reign of the Zulu nation was finally broken.”
Stuglling to find the original source to this, probably in an old book and thus un-googlable. Don't remember what book I first read it in.
 
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rambo919

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There's a fundamental problem with this argument. We could have similar discussions on Thermopylae, Stalingrad, Samar, Arnhem, Shiroyama and on and on and on and on...

The battles have been fought. They're done. They're over.

Theoretically a million things *might* have effected the results... They didn't.

The boers won at Blood River. The Persians won at Thermopylae. The Russians won at Stalingrad. Americans turned the Japanese back at Samar. The Germans retook Arnhem bridge... You see where I'm going with this?
There is no such thing as an inevitable victory, having won a victory in itself does not make the victory inevitable.
 

rambo919

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Yip, the role terrain has on a battlefield perfectly displayed in the contrast between these two battles. At the Battle of Islandwana the impi did not get slowed down by a river and a donga, they were able to encircle the British. This was not acheivable against the Voortrekker due the landscape, gave the Voortrekkers a natural barrier to their rear, hence the impi could only attack on one front.

The role of the laager in blunting the attack as it provided a barrier from direct attack by the impi was also an important factor at Blood River. One of the findings by the British Army for the their defeat was that they did not set up a laager defensive position.
You are ignoring something absolutely vital, they were in a permanent defensive position with neither guns nor cannon that were smokeless, after firering for a while the smoke would be so thick no one could see anything.... at which point the Impi's could advance in safety.
 

rambo919

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No its the opposite - that so called intelligent people conclude that it was an act of god because 600 people with cannons, guns and cover on the high ground were able to defeat 20 000 people armed with spears who had no cover and had to traverse a river to gain ground.

Sorry - its a long sentence but some stuff to cover.
Given the limitations of those weapons as well as the secondary hazards they caused yes a fast moving melee force in superior numbers could easily overwhelm them unless a strong wind happened to be blowing,
 

Fulcrum29

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Isn't there a degree of racism involved here? The assumption that blacks cant fight or something? Especially when they gave the British such a harder time in comparison where there were better trained troops in larger numbers with superior supplies.
Poor British. Since this was by large a Dominion the Brits had bigger battles at hand. Most British who served the Dominion as soldiers were militia. The British started shipping their veterans here only during the later stages, once the Boers gained the advantage and even then they still brought in other companies like their Irish counterparts, and at this stage, the Boers established their guerilla Kommandos. The British only station, and mobilise, their trained soldiers when they want to establish control, law and order. Most trained British companies served in places like India and prior to this, they had 2 wars with the Americans.

Militias buy time, they aren't mobilised to 'win' battles, though they play a large part in winning wars.

I am glad so many here survived December 16th, 1838.
 

buka001

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You are ignoring something absolutely vital, they were in a permanent defensive position with neither guns nor cannon that were smokeless, after firering for a while the smoke would be so thick no one could see anything.... at which point the Impi's could advance in safety.
So there was no wind back in the 1800's?
 

rambo919

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Poor British. Since this was by large a Dominion the Brits had bigger battles at hand. Most British who served the Dominion as soldiers were militia. The British started shipping their veterans here only during the later stages, once the Boers gained the advantage and even then they still brought in other companies like their Irish counterparts, and at this stage, the Boers established their guerilla Kommandos. The British only station, and mobilise, their trained soldiers when they want to establish control, law and order. Most trained British companies served in places like India and prior to this, they had 2 wars with the Americans.

Militias buy time, they aren't mobilised to 'win' battles, though they play a large part in winning wars.

I am glad so many here survived December 16th, 1838.
Are you not basically saying the untrained Boer volunteers were better fighters than slightly better trained British Militia?
 

daveza

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Are the Hawks supposed to go after 'terrorists ', don't we have a national security team to deal with that ?
 

Fulcrum29

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Are you not basically saying the untrained Boer volunteers were better fighters than slightly better trained British Militia?
You need to break that up, these Boer volunteers. Who were they?

Some quoted the Battle of Isandlwana, and those who have quoted that should know that the British forces were made up from Natal Native Contingent auxiliary soldiers. It is best to read up on the Natal Native Contingent.

If you were talking of the Battle of Blood River, then you will know that they are mainly Voortrekkers (and not the average volunteer) and if you don't know they enlisted Andries Pretorius to protect them who led scouting expeditions, and you can say this was the early formation of Boer Kommandos.

Just to quote a later Battle of where Andries Pretorious led the Boer Kommandos.


Clash between Dutch (Boer) and British forces[edit]
Captain Smith arrived and settled in Port Natal on 4 May 1842, contrary to the vehement demands from the Boers that the British should leave. Smith decided to attack the Boers before they could arrange the support they were expecting. At midnight on the evening of 23 and 24 May, the British forces, including the 1st Battalion, Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers, attacked the well-defended village of "Kongela". The attack failed dismally, and the official history of the Regiment relates the story effectively:
For a time all went well. Not a Boer was seen: not a shot [was] fired, until, half a mile from their objective, they had to skirt a dense thicket of mango-bush, which proved to be held by an advance party of burghers who opened a heavy fire upon them. This fire the Inniskillings returned, but with nothing to aim at except the flashes from the scrub, while, as they stood up in the bright moonlight to reload, they offered the Boers a target such as every marksman dreams of but very seldom sees. When the guns lumbered into action their projectiles checked the Boer musketry but only for a moment and, when the enemy’s bullets began to find their billets among the oxen, the beasts broke loose, upset the limbers, dashed among the soldiers and threw them into confusion... The moment the Boers had silenced the light guns they turned their musketry again upon the infantry who fell so fast that Charlton Smith realised that the attack had failed and retired, pursued by the burghers who for two or three hours fired hotly into his camp . . . In the retreat he was forced to leave behind him the two light guns and sixteen dead, also thirty-one wounded men. Three more men were drowned in crossing a river: this disastrous night attack caused fifty casualties, or nearly thirty-six per cent of the one hundred and thirty-nine combatants who took part in it. Three officers fell: Lieutenant Wyatt, R.A., was shot dead, Captain J. F. Lonsdale and Lieut. B. Tunnard were severely wounded. The latter had an extraordinary escape. He was hard hit in the thigh and, in the retreat, collapsed into the river. In the confusion his fall was unnoticed and he was reported missing until next day, when he was brought up to the camp by some Good Samaritans who had found his apparently lifeless body stranded on the bank.
These Boer Kommandoes knew what they were doing. What is that saying again? Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
 

buka001

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Not a thick and heavy gunsmoke cloud no.... this is not light mist mate it's the kind of cloud that clings to you.
Nah.


Smoke cloud from a cannon goes outwards away from the cannon (the smoke particles are blast forward) in the explosion. Look at the video. Especially around 8:15 or so. The cloud disperses within a few seconds and you can easily see through it.

The Voortrekkers did not need accuracy as they were using Grapeshot. They could fire in the same general area, blind, and would still achieve multiple casualties.
 

rambo919

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Smoke cloud from a cannon goes outwards away from the cannon
Dude..... they were firing outwards..... all cannon smoke centred in the the centre of the laager.
All gunsmoke from rifles concentrated just behind every rifle that was fired..... there was smoke everywhere and the longer they fired the more smoke there was eventually enveloping the entire laager.

They had a HUGE area around them to target, they could not waste ammunition on hopefully hitting someone.... this is not some stupid movie where the smoke clears within seconds.
 

buka001

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Dude..... they were firing outwards..... all cannon smoke centred in the the centre of the laager.
All gunsmoke from rifles concentrated just behind every rifle that was fired..... there was smoke everywhere and the longer they fired the more smoke there was eventually enveloping the entire laager.

They had a HUGE area around them to target, they could not waste ammunition on hopefully hitting someone.... this is not some stupid movie where the smoke clears within seconds.
They had ample opportunity to fire at the advancing impis when they crossed the plain and battle reports indicate that they did exactly this. 11 projectiles per shot. Each shot would travel through several people.

That video is a real cannon. Not some hollywood movie. The cloud moves away from the cannon, through its own momentum.

Smoke from cannon fire becomes a problem when you have dozens of cannons firing simultaneously, like they had during the Napoleonic Wars. The Voortrekkers had 3 and they faced different fronts.

The Voortrekkers were able to shoot a 1000 impis in the river alone, while they crossed it. The impis could not reach from that point. They also ran up and shot the impis hiding in the donga.

Superior terrain and weaponry.

Ask Sun Tzu. He could tell you.
 

rambo919

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These Boer Kommandoes knew what they were doing. What is that saying again? Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
A lot of that was a difference in mentality, the Brits had the habit of using clustered formations which was good against melee clusters..... useless against modern opponents using mobile tactics.

You are correct though I forgot about aux troops, when you use those it becomes more of a numbers than tactics game which necessitates clustered formations.
 

rambo919

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Smoke from cannon fire becomes a problem when you have dozens of cannons firing simultaneously, like they had during the Napoleonic Wars. The Voortrekkers had 3 and they faced different fronts.
The laager formed an enclosed space, the rifles produced far more smoke than the cannons.

No it was 3 angles of easy approach, the front was the entirety of the surroundings. There were Impi's attempting to get at them from everywhere so there was continual fire in ALL directions.

Remember the rifles were being continuously fired, it would not take long for a strong smog to build up.

Superior terrain and weaponry.
Exactly that kind of hubris have left countless armies in pieces, technology alone means nothing.
 

Fulcrum29

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A lot of that was a difference in mentality, the Brits had the habit of using clustered formations which was good against melee clusters..... useless against modern opponents using mobile tactics.

You are correct though I forgot about aux troops, when you use those it becomes more of a numbers than tactics game which necessitates clustered formations.
The issue with most auxiliary units is their lack of leadership, morale and discipline. I only know the recorded history, but from an 'observers' perspective reading up on these things I can possibly allude to these auxiliary troops breaking formation and disobeying rallying and reformation commands. These British officers had their hands full.

Besides, I can also possibly allude to the British command underestimating the Zulu plan of action. They weren't prepared for shock troops because of the Zulu's lack of cavalry. It broke them in my opinion. 2nd lines can't shoot or advance or turn when their own troops are running into them.

The Boers at the Battle of Blood River had the advantage of entrenchment, and I can also possibly allude to them having some form of side tactic.
 

buka001

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The laager formed an enclosed space, the rifles produced far more smoke than the cannons.

No it was 3 angles of easy approach, the front was the entirety of the surroundings. There were Impi's attempting to get at them from everywhere so there was continual fire in ALL directions.

Remember the rifles were being continuously fired, it would not take long for a strong smog to build up.



Exactly that kind of hubris have left countless armies in pieces, technology alone means nothing.
I posted a map of the battle. The impis circled all the way around, after passing through a river and a donga to attack the front.

How fast do you think 3000 people can cross a river in a formation, while being shot at with cannon and musket fire?

The impis attacked in waves. The time between the waves allowed for reloading, setting up formations and so on.

The cannons were placed in gates between the wagons.

Terrain is critical. You have a massive advantage if you have the high ground. Ask King Henry V at the Battle of Argincourt, or the Duke of Wellington at the Battle of Waterloo.
 
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