‘We are expected to be OK with not having children’: how gay parenthood through surrogacy became a battleground

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Beyond.Celsus

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I realised I said they want to cover the cost for surrogacy but that is not the case. They just want the IVF part covered like the other women have.
Doesn't matter.
Is the women on the policy?
Does their monthly premium calculation include the possibility of IVF treatment for a third party not on the policy?

Add the woman as a beneficiary and pay more per month.
Then it would be fair.
 

Gyre

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I was replying to this:

All the positive rights that progressives demand, such as free healthcare, free welfare, free education, free abortion, being free from discrimination by private parties, being free from offended. There is no limiting scope to positive rights. Which means we are at the point where progressives like yourself will defend a man celebrating a child being coerced into touching his junk because you don't want to look offensive to trannies on a Zimbabwean sheep shearing fourm.

This is literally about people that want healthcare that fall outside of their scope - the couple could be straight and want the exact same thing. There are plenty of women who can't fall pregnant.

I just fail to see how people getting their dicks grabbed on stage are related to surrogate rules and parents in anyway, especially since the couple in the OP aren't even trans?

Where am I celebrating a man getting a child to touch his junk? Where did you determine that I was progressive?
 

WizardOfAges

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Doesn't matter.
Is the women on the policy?
Does their monthly premium calculation include the possibility of IVF treatment for a third party not on the policy?

Add the woman as a beneficiary and pay more per month.
Then it would be fair.
Doesn't matter?

But the straight and lesbian couples have IVF procedures covered and there is also the possibility of a third party?

How is that fair?
 

konfab

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I said gay, Which means exclusively on the Kinsey Homo - Hetero Continuum. Very few of those procreated with women.

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Kinsey collected sexual material from around the world, which brought him to the attention of the U.S. Customs Service when they seized some pornographic films in 1956; he died before this matter was resolved legally.[19] Kinsey wrote about pre-adolescent orgasms using data in tables 30 to 34 of the male volume, which report observations of orgasms in over 300 children aged from two months up to fifteen years.[24] This information was said to have come from adults' childhood memories, or from parent or teacher observation.[25] Kinsey said he also interviewed nine men who had sexual experiences with children and who told him about the children's responses and reactions. Little attention was paid to this part of Kinsey's research at the time, but where Kinsey had gained this information began to be questioned nearly 40 years later.[26] It was later revealed that Kinsey used data from a single pedophile and presented it as being from various sources. Kinsey had seen the need for participant confidentiality and anonymity as necessary to gain "honest answers on such taboo subjects".[27][28] Years later, the Kinsey Institute said that the data on children in tables 31–34 came from one man's journal (started in 1917) and that the events concerned predated the Kinsey Reports.

Kinsey's work is garbage.
 

konfab

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This is literally about people that want healthcare that fall outside of their scope - the couple could be straight and want the exact same thing. There are plenty of women who can't fall pregnant.
Woman who want IVF are paying members of their medical aid. Gay men who want IVF for their surrogates want the medial aid to pay for healthcare for a non-member. Same rules would apply to a straight couple who want a surrogate, ego it isn't discriminatory.

I just fail to see how people getting their dicks grabbed on stage are related to surrogate rules and parents in anyway, especially since the couple in the OP aren't even trans?
It falls into the same category of entitlement.

Where am I celebrating a man getting a child to touch his junk? Where did you determine that I was progressive?
Learn to read. I said you were defending a man celebrating a child touching his junk. Not that you were celebrating it. You could have just said: "yes that guy is a degenerate and should be thrown in prison for sexual molestation", but here we are.
 

WizardOfAges

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Does the woman on the policy carry the baby or a surrogate?
Could be either.

Even the participants fell for this assumption.

“They say their healthcare plan doesn’t provide surrogacy for anyone, so it’s not discrimination to deny it to Corey and Nicholas.” Just like everyone else, the city’s first response was to assume this was all about access to surrogacy."
 

WizardOfAges

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I said you were defending a man celebrating a child touching his junk. Not that you were celebrating it. You could have just said: "yes that guy is a degenerate and should be thrown in prison for sexual molestation", but here we are.
Why does he automatically defend it by asking a question?
 

WizardOfAges

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Insurance does not cover surrogacy, whether you are straight, gay or a submarine.
IVF may be covered, although most insurance companies do not offer it.
If it does cover than option - for the woman on the policy - their premiums would be more expensive.
This isn't about the coverage for surrogacy, but the coverage for IVF. Why are we going in circles?
 

Beyond.Celsus

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This isn't about the coverage for surrogacy, but the coverage for IVF. Why are we going in circles?
IVF may be covered, although most insurance companies do not offer it.
If it does cover than option - for the woman on the policy - their premiums would be more expensive.
 

WizardOfAges

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IVF may be covered, although most insurance companies do not offer it.
If it does cover than option - for the woman on the policy - their premiums would be more expensive.
It is covered for straight and lesbian couples. Why not gay couples?
I can bold too.
 

Gyre

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Woman who want IVF are paying members of their medical aid. Gay men who want IVF for their surrogates want the medial aid to pay for healthcare for a non-member. Same rules would apply to a straight couple who want a surrogate, ego it isn't discriminatory.

It falls into the same category of entitlement.

Learn to read. I said you were defending a man celebrating a child touching his junk. Not that you were celebrating it. You could have just said: "yes that guy is a degenerate and should be thrown in prison for sexual molestation", but here we are.

I wanted to figure out where molestation became an argument of entitlement, how all gay people became entitled and how two people on a stage became related to this story at all? It's obvious that people would condemn this and say it's disgusting, what isn't obvious is why you brought it up at all? You could have even used other cases of entitlement and favoritism, but you zeroed in on pedos? Regardless, next topic.

I was defending a man? Can you show me where I celebrated OR defended a man throwing his junk at children? I could say a lot of things, I could also have defended somebody, which i didn't?

Please educate me, I'd hate to assume you're a lying POS but here we are.
 

Mike Hoxbig

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Doesn't matter?

But the straight and lesbian couples have IVF procedures covered and there is also the possibility of a third party?

How is that fair?
Is the straight or lesbian couple carrying the baby, or will someone else be carrying the baby? That makes a difference.

If you're carrying the baby and IVF is covered, there's no issue. Because you're paying for the cover.

If gay couples want IVF covered, perhaps they could find a surrogate who's covered under her own plan, so her insurance can pay for the procedure. What they're trying to do is get their insurance to pay for someone who doesn't have cover in place with them.

And, this is just speculation btw, they're probably pushing this so hard because they already have someone in mind as a surrogate who doesn't have cover in place. So they're trying to get theirs to pay for it. Again, not exclusively a gay thing. Straight people try to milk insurance too. The discrimination angle is smoke and mirrors to deflect from the facts...
 

Beyond.Celsus

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What even is that question.
Sperm has to be donated, the clinic has to be paid etc.
It's not just about the woman carrying the fertilized embryo.
That is exactly what it is about.
The person getting the IVF treatment is actually on the damn policy and paying a monthly fee to be covered.

These two guys want a third party to receive the IVF treatment who is not even on the policy.
How do you not get this?

This is not about discrimination, but you seem to have your discrimination blinkers on and can't see anything else.
 

Gyre

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Is the straight or lesbian couple carrying the baby, or will someone else be carrying the baby? That makes a difference.

If you're carrying the baby and IVF is covered, there's no issue. Because you're paying for the cover.

If gay couples want IVF covered, perhaps they could find a surrogate who's covered under her own plan, so her insurance can pay for the procedure. What they're trying to do is get their insurance to pay for someone who doesn't have cover in place with them.

And, this is just speculation btw, they're probably pushing this so hard because they already have someone in mind as a surrogate who doesn't have cover in place. So they're trying to get theirs to pay for it. Again, not exclusively a gay thing. Straight people try to milk insurance too. The discrimination angle is smoke and mirrors to deflect from the facts...

And this is the ultimate crux of the issue, it isn't a gay or straight thing, it's the whole issue of surrogacy. It's a people problem.
 

konfab

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I wanted to figure out where molestation became an argument of entitlement, how all gay people became entitled and how two people on a stage became related to this story at all? It's obvious that people would condemn this and say it's disgusting, what isn't obvious is why you brought it up at all? You could have even used other cases of entitlement and favoritism, but you zeroed in on pedos? Regardless, next topic.
It is inevitable when you have positive rights as positive rights are unlimited in scope, when everything and anything can become a right, anything and everything will become a right, including the most egregious actions like a man actively sexualising children.
Pedos are useful, because one would hope that they would be universally derided by everyone. But I see that isn't the case anymore



I was defending a man? Can you show me where I celebrated OR defended a man throwing his junk at children? I could say a lot of things, I could also have defended somebody, which i didn't?

Please educate me, I'd hate to assume you're a lying POS but here we are.
You didn't want to argue about the fact of unlimited entitlement that my post was making fun of.
 
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