157 aboard Ethiopian Airlines flight to Nairobi involved in fatal crash

ponder

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
74,238
Plane crashes are progress? That's a new one
It's how it works, you advance from the accidents with the new found knowledge. A lot was learned from the first commercial jet airliner for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet

There was a boeing 737 issue with hard rudder locks resulting in fatal crashes, the flight data recorder data was insufficient to determine the cause. BA however had more advanced logging equipment installed on their planes and with the info they supplied the NTSB the cause was isolated to a design defect. The advanced logging equipment is not a mandated requirement and airlines did not install it due to costs.
 

Hamish McPanji

Honorary Master
Joined
Oct 29, 2009
Messages
36,619
It's how it works, you advance from the accidents with the new found knowledge. A lot was learned from the first commercial jet airliner for example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havilland_Comet

There was a boeing 737 issue with hard rudder locks resulting in fatal crashes, the flight data recorder data was insufficient to determine the cause. BA however had more advanced logging equipment installed on their planes and with the info they supplied the NTSB the cause was isolated to a design defect. The advanced logging equipment is not a mandated requirement and airlines did not install it due to costs.
I would argue that this doesn't fall under the same category.
 

Gordon_R

Executive Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
6,080
It's how it works, you advance from the accidents with the new found knowledge.
In the broader context, progress is always a trade-off between cost, performance and safety. During the Middle Ages cathedrals kept being built higher, until eventually some collapsed, and they were scaled down. During the Industrial Revolution ships and bridges were made of lighter and stronger materials, until they collapsed or capsized, due to unanticipated failure modes. If you want 100% safety, the costs will always he high, and the performance mediocre.

I bet the Ancient Romans had plenty of failures too, we just don't know much about them. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fidenae#Stadium_disaster
In 27 AD, an apparently cheaply built wooden amphitheater constructed by an entrepreneur named Atilius collapsed in Fidenae, resulting in by far the worst stadium disaster in history. At least 20,000 were killed and many more injured out of the total audience of 50,000.
 

ponder

Honorary Master
Joined
Jan 22, 2005
Messages
74,238
Plane is grounded even in its home country now... Wonder if any new information has come about that the authorities are aware of
I see one in turkish airspace and several in us & canadian airspace still flying. Will check in the morning again.
 

Gordon_R

Executive Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
6,080
Plane is grounded even in its home country now... Wonder if any new information has come about that the authorities are aware of
Aviation forums are discussing experimental satellite ADS-B reception to fill in the rest of the flight details (ground receivers lost the signal due to terrain).

Also something called a Quick Access Recorder, which is intended for maintenance and not designed to survive a crash, may have contained recoverable data (before the FDR was decoded).
 

Aharon

Executive Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2006
Messages
7,166
Aviation forums are discussing experimental satellite ADS-B reception to fill in the rest of the flight details (ground receivers lost the signal due to terrain).

Also something called a Quick Access Recorder, which is intended for maintenance and not designed to survive a crash, may have contained recoverable data (before the FDR was decoded).
Could you share some aviation forum links
 

Gordon_R

Executive Member
Joined
Jul 5, 2009
Messages
6,080
Could you share some aviation forum links
I could share links, but the signal-to-noise ratio is very poor, and the number of posts takes hours to plow through.

Two general links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aireon
Aireon was launched in 2011 as a joint venture between satellite communications company Iridium Communications Inc, Nav Canada, NATS, ENAV, Naviair and the Irish Aviation Authority to work on a surveillance system to track aircraft around the globe, beyond the range of ground-based radar and ADS-B receivers, in real time.
Aireon launched a partnership with FlightAware to provide space-based ADS-B to airlines and other aircraft operators
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_access_recorder
A quick access recorder (QAR) is an airborne flight recorder designed to provide quick and easy access to raw flight data, through means such as USB or cellular network connections and/or the use of standard flash memory cards. QARs are typically used by airlines to improve flight safety and operational efficiency, usually in the scope of their flight operational quality assurance plans. Like the aircraft's flight data recorder (FDR), a QAR receives its inputs from the Flight Data Acquisition Unit (FDAU), recording over 2000 flight parameters. The QAR is also able to sample data at much higher rates than the FDR and, in some cases, for longer periods of time. Unlike the FDR, the QAR usually is not required by a national Civil Aviation Authority on commercial flights and is not designed to survive an accident. Despite this, some QARs have survived accidents and provided valuable information beyond what was recorded by the FDR.
Edit: News reports: https://paxex.aero/2019/03/aireon-ads-b-data-transport-canada-737-max-grounding/
Aireon space-based ADS-B data helps in driving decision on 737 MAX groundings
 
Last edited:

OrbitalDawn

Ulysses Everett McGill
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
40,677
Seems the US is trying to protect Boeing by not wanting crash data to go to European countries.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-ethiopia-maneuver-over-crashed-planes-black-boxes-11552444534

Also, from November last year:

Boeing Withheld Information on 737 Model From Pilots

Boeing held back information about possible malfunctions with the new flight-control feature that’s believed to have played a role in the Lion Air jet crash that killed 189 people in Indonesia last month
 

NarrowBandFtw

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
15,325
quick
lets find a way to try blame trump
That's not even a challenge:

Clearly it is Trump's racist anti-immigration policies that have prevented the highly sought after aeronautics engineers from Mexico to design the new 737 to be safer.

or

Trump's collusion with Russia paved the way for their hackers to down these planes, we know it's true because both planes' black boxes contained Cyrillic comments in the code.
 
Top