157 aboard Ethiopian Airlines flight to Nairobi involved in fatal crash

Craig

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Non-event. Precautionary engine shutdown after ingesting debris. All of Southwest MAX aircraft are being moved to the desert in anticipation of a prolonged grounding.
This must be costing the airlines a pretty penny. I wonder who will be carrying the cost?
 

Drifter

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Thanks. That is also what I agree with in my own analysis, except perhaps for how software handles these failures and the logical sequencing - overriding pilot decision. Much of the argument would be moot as to what a bug is. The few line sof code may be perfect, but the implementation ill advised. But then again we should have never even gotten there in the first place and it would not have been that difficult either.

In simplistic terms, this equates to the war that was lost for want of a nail. We need some form of redundancy, it's not a foreign concept. I really question some of these design decisions. Ideally for a critical system you need at least three inputs (always an odd number) in a type of vote system, to reach quorum. Ideally these imputs should be seperate locations. One failure - no biggie. Two, alert the crap out of the world - and ffs, don't override pilot decision.

In my days where I was advising clients on computer solutions, I guaranteed them certain features with their new system much to the chagrin of sales people and management: power supply failures due to fans being mechanical, disk failures for the same reason. Where they were literally spending millions, a few thousand rand could make those failures a non-issue. In a different way lives were also depending on availability. Electronics will fail even though lasting for a long time. To succeed, plan for failure.
It's simple really, they got testers from India to do the testing before implementing the code. Companies like Zenzar etc.
 

Gordon_R

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Boeing will pay as it is now an official grounding
Boeing will pay about $15,000 per day per aircraft, which is close to nothing for a stranded asset worth $100m each. This is just enough to cover interest and leasing costs. Insurance and maintenance is cancelled during groundings, and depreciation does not occur on properly stored engines.

The lost revenue will have to be swallowed by the airlines. You can bet they are not happy.
 

Jola

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Boeing will pay about $15,000 per day per aircraft, which is close to nothing for a stranded asset worth $100m each. This is just enough to cover interest and leasing costs. Insurance and maintenance is cancelled during groundings, and depreciation does not occur on properly stored engines.

The lost revenue will have to be swallowed by the airlines. You can bet they are not happy.
Yes, and some of the airlines are losing a lot of business. Norwegian, for example.
 

Nanfeishen

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Boeing will pay about $15,000 per day per aircraft, which is close to nothing for a stranded asset worth $100m each. This is just enough to cover interest and leasing costs. Insurance and maintenance is cancelled during groundings, and depreciation does not occur on properly stored engines.

The lost revenue will have to be swallowed by the airlines. You can bet they are not happy.
All things considered, they screwed the pooch on this one and are now paying the price, as it should be.
 

Sollie

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https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2019/03/simulations-show-lion-air-737-crew-had-little-time-to-prevent-disaster/

Lion Air 737 MAX crew had seconds to react, Boeing simulation finds
Boeing test pilots determine crash was unavoidable if MCAS wasn't shut down in 40 seconds.

In testing performed in a simulator, Boeing test pilots recreated the conditions aboard Lion Air Flight 610 when it went down in the Java Sea in October, killing 189 people. The tests showed that the crew of the 737 MAX 8 would have only had 40 seconds to respond to the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System’s (MCAS’s) attempts to correct a stall that wasn’t happening before the aircraft went into an unrecoverable dive, according to a report by The New York Times. by

While the test pilots were able to correct the issue with the flip of three switches, their training on the systems far exceeded that of the Lion Air crew—and that of the similarly doomed Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302, which crashed earlier this month. The Lion Air crew was heard on cockpit voice recorders checking flight manuals in an attempt to diagnose what was going on moments before they died.

...
 

Gordon_R

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So Boeing finally admitted it was MCAS which overrode the pilot's attempts at pulling the plane back up.
Nice
Could you please provide a source when making a post. Many people on this forum follow the story, and would like a little more detail and context than your one sentence post.

Edit: There has been detailed and ongoing discussion about this topic in the Transportation forum: https://mybroadband.co.za/forum/threads/kulula-and-ba’s-boeing-737-max-8-planes-–-“we-remain-vigilant”.1012480/
 

Gordon_R

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The other thread is about local airlines.
Do I have to drag you there and point you to the specific link that I posted last week: https://mybroadband.co.za/forum/threads/kulula-and-ba’s-boeing-737-max-8-planes-–-“we-remain-vigilant”.1012480/post-23165656

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/25/business/boeing-simulation-error.html

During flight simulations recreating the problems with the doomed Lion Air plane, pilots discovered that they had less than 40 seconds to override an automated system on Boeing’s new jets and avert disaster.
 

krycor

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Following steps recommended by Boeing didn’t save the Ethiopian flight
By Tripti LahiriApril 3, 2019


Black box data from the Ethiopian Airlines flight that crashed March 10 show the pilots began carrying out the proper steps to override a flight system implicated in an earlier crash of the aircraft, according to the Wall Street Journal (paywall).

The flight system, which kicks in when the plane senses an impending stall, began pointing the plane’s nose downward (paywall) when the jet was just 450 feet (137 meters) above ground. Overriding the system involves flipping two switches to cut power to the system and then stabilizing the plane manually by rotating a control wheel. Boeing directed airlines to these steps after the first crash of a Lion Air 737 Max in Indonesia which killed all 189 on board, after pilots battled the anti-stall system.

Black-box data showed the pilots did this, people familiar with the accident investigation findings, which are not yet public, told the Journal. Following the recommended process also means that autopilot can’t be used for the remainder of the flight, according to pilots familiar with the 737 Max system.

However, after turning off power to the flight system, the pilots couldn’t get the plane to climb. They then flipped the switches again to restore power to electrical controls. Just six minutes after taking off, the plane crashed in a field, killing all 157 people on board.

If the preliminary report on the Ethiopian Airlines crash, which could be published as soon as this week, shows the pilots did what they were supposed to in order to avert disaster and yet were unable to save the plane, the consequences would be grave for Boeing. For one, such findings would strengthen doubts around the plane’s airworthiness, and its future.

Boeing has said the 737 Max is safe to fly, despite a growing number of questions about its design and certification by the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). The plane has bigger engines than earlier 737 variations it is based on, and they are placed further forward, altering the plane’s center of gravity and leading it to pitch up. For that reason, Boeing added what many are calling a “kludge,” a way to counteract the aerodynamic tendencies of the plane without pilot intervention. It’s called the Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System, or MCAS, and points the plane’s nose sharply down in response to sensor data that warns of an impending stall.

Pilots were not informed of the presence of that system or trained on it until after the first crash. In the wake of that tragedy, airlines imparted training on MCAS, and on how to override it to pilots. Many pilots have said they believe that with the proper training the plane is perfectly safe to fly. But some of them have also noted that multiple steps are required to happen at the same time, leaving little margin for error at a crucial time, given the anti-stall system can kick in at relatively low altitudes. Airlines in the US have said tracking thousands of hours of Max flights has not shown indication for concern.

Boeing has said it is continuing to work with the FAA and other regulatory agencies worldwide on the development and certification of an MCAS software update that will make the system less powerful, as well as a training program. “Safety is our first priority, and we will take a thorough and methodical approach to the development and testing of the update to ensure we take the time to get it right,” it said yesterday (April 2).

Ethiopian Airlines is among the few carriers to have a ready-to-use 737 Max simulator (paywall), although it notes that the simulator is not designed to mimic the Lion Air problem. It also says its pilots flying the Max were trained on the processes the FAA and Boeing directed pilots to follow to deal with the MCAS, a marked difference from the circumstances surrounding the Lion Air flight.

In the wake of the Indonesia crash, Boeing had highlighted the fact that pilots flying the same plane a day earlier were able to resolve the problem and continue their flight safely. Cockpit voice data leaked to Reuters showed the pilots on the Lion Air flight did not follow the steps used on the plane’s penultimate flight, and were looking through a reference guide for procedures to follow.

If the black-box findings from Ethiopia are able to show that pilot error was not a major factor in the crash, that would strengthen the cases being brought to lawyers on behalf of crash victims that the plane is not safe as designed. A legal case focused on the design of the plane, which occurred in the US, rather than operational or training issues would have a stronger chance of being heard in a US court than would normally be the case for crashes that occurred overseas—and therefore a much stronger chance of winning hefty compensation from Boeing.

https://qz.com/1586385/pilots-of-crashed-ethiopian-jet-followed-steps-recommended-by-boeing/
 

Sollie

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So far we have seen:
The 737Max is so close to the 737NG that no additional training is needed (as sold)
The pilots simply had to following trouble shooting guide (Later found to be so long it took an extra pilot to accomplish in time)
Pilots did not use simulator (we now see they did)
Simulator can't mimic real world conditions.

But the Boeing 737 Max is safe!

What's next? A lot of corporate BS and attempts to blame the pilots so far.

:coffee:
 

Drifter

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Gordon_R

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So far we have seen:
The 737Max is so close to the 737NG that no additional training is needed (as sold)
The pilots simply had to following trouble shooting guide (Later found to be so long it took an extra pilot to accomplish in time)
Pilots did not use simulator (we now see they did)
Simulator can't mimic real world conditions.

But the Boeing 737 Max is safe!

What's next? A lot of corporate BS and attempts to blame the pilots so far.

:coffee:
The irony is that if Boeing hadn't implemented MCAS, but spent a few million (or even a billion) dollars on fixing the aerodynamics, none of this discussion would be taking place. The Greek word for this is 'hubris', and the reaction is 'nemesis'.

Edit: A reminder of the ongoing thread in the Transportation sub-forum: https://mybroadband.co.za/forum/threads/kulula-and-ba’s-boeing-737-max-8-planes-–-“we-remain-vigilant”.1012480/
 
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