2009 Bahrain Formula One Grand Prix

[killadoob]

MBP i have no doubt hamilton is a talented driver but i do not believe he is in the same class as senna or shummi, you say he is one of the most talented drivers purely because upon arriving at mclaren he had one of the best cars to drive and no doubt he drove it well and was aggressive but just because i am not a journalist does not mean i cannot spot talent. Many people thought button was a talentless driver and look how well he has done given the car. I just do not think hamilton has what it takes to be a great, he can drive a car for sure but so can alot of f1 drivers.

You say hamilton is a talent based on what he has done thus far but this season to me hamilton has not looked like the driver i saw in the last 2 years, he has not had a good wet race which was his strong point, which brings me back to the car he had in the last 2 seasons which was flawless. So i am not saying hamilton is not a good driver i just do not believe he is in the top 3 drivers of the last 20 years.

If you look at some of decisions given against hamilton they where correct, if you cut a corner yield into the next corner, not a hard rule yet mclaren and hamilton think they are special and break rules and then claim the FIA are out to get them when they get penalties, another point in the one race when he went flying into the corner and out-breaked himself, i am all for good aggressive senna like driving but that was just crazy and never going to stick and destroys races for people because he seems to think he is the best thing to happen to f1 since senna died which also irks me about hamilton.

I don't mind a bit agressive driving racing a rival like the prost/senna days or even the shummi days but knowing your not going to make a corner and not caring is silly. Look at the penalty they gave vettel this season for destroying both him and kubica's race, nobody cries foul because it was not hamilton. Case in point was the hamilton fans last season having a go at felipe for spinning so many times but when hamilton spins like crazy in the wet where he is supposed to be amazing they say nothing.

Look at how he has driven this year, not the top 3 driver in the last 20 years if you ask me. Senna or shummi would have won a race in the wet even with his crap car, all he can do is spin. Hamilton is lucky that some cars are very slow this year like toyota, williams and bmw even though they have the pace they never seen to bring it during the race and this is allowing him to easily get into the top 6,bmw have just gone backwards badly. So you may think i say this because i dislike hamilton but i have watched many f1 seasons and would not put hamilton in the top 3 drivers of the last 20 years and it has nothing to do with the fact i think he needs to get over himself. Again this year everyone cries foul, saying the FIA are out to get mclaren, they never lied.

The shock and horror when hamilton came out and said they lied was epic and unexpected by those who think the FIA are out to get mclaren. That shut the tinfoil group up in regards to the FIA wanting to get Mclaren because mclaren and hamilton admitted they lied.

 

[Willie Trombone]

See it how you like, I'm not telling you you are wrong to do that, I will however share what I know. As for Schumi being talented, Ross Brawn, Jean Todt etc. etc. were a formidable team. Schumi was beaten by an inferior team with a youngster driving when Alonso won, don't forget that. Schumi is one of those talents who will always be remembered for his record, but there is alot more to F1 than winning. You get to see alot of it behind the scenes. Believe me when I say that Hamilton is not your average talent. But by all means keep your own opinion, it's the spice of debate!

 

[killadoob]

Ok so shummi started with ferrari? Shummi is the main reason ferrari did so well, his first year at ferrari was nothing like hamilton's first year now was it.

You can tell me i am wrong but i saw what senna and shummi did in inferior cars and how they drove, i saw what alonso did and that was remarkable to say the least. You talk about shummi like his first F1 was in the best car, he started at the bottom and actually vettel looks alot like shummi did in the early days, vettel did some incredible stuff last year in an inferior car. He won a race in the wet in a car that was much slower in dry conditions, hamilton has had 3 wet races in an inferior car and what has he done?

Shummi did some amazing stuff in inferior cars and won races in a car that never looked likely to finish in the top 3, senna did pretty much the same thing. Now hamilton gets his first tractor and barely makes into in q3 lets alone even come close to winning even in the wet. It is very easy to compare what hamilton has done as opposed to what senna and shummi did but had shummi and senna started f1 in the best cars i would think that the stats would a lot different. It is nice to start out in a car that gets pole and win races as opposed to what he has now. The only way hamilton can get on the podium in his slow mclaren is by lying to stewards sadly. Now you can say i am wrong but hamilton has not been the rain master by a mile this year and thus far that has been his only chance to secure a win. Now shummi and senna in the rain in poor cars did really well and won races.

 

[sand_man]

Yea the people who said button has no talent i hope feel different now,

NO

 

[killadoob]

Yet you think hamilton who did so well in one of the best cars has talent? Not sure how that works unless your basing your feelings on button having driven the 18th best car for a few seasons.

What are you basing your button has no talent on?

 

[Serqet]

I think it is unfair for us compare drivers and their cars. After all, there is a huge psychological element that comes into play during these races.

Hamilton will be finding it difficult and the fact he isn't finishing where he would like must be impacting his mental state to quite a degree.

I think it's safe to say that formula one drivers are all great or they wouldn't be in F1 to begin with. What sets a driver apart from another? How they handle the pressure as well as how they drive in the different conditions. Do some cars have more of an advantage probably, but that isn't all it takes to win a race.

 

[sand_man]

Like I've said on numerous occasions before, judge Hamilton's talent and ability based on what he is doing in the Mclaren compared with his team mates...

Judge his ability and talent based on what he did in karting, Formula Renault and Formula 3 where competitors are racing each other using the same or very similar equipment..

That Killa and others compare Hami to the greats after only just 2 and a bit seasons is testimony to the kids brilliance so keep making the comparison....

 

[killadoob]

Well based on what i have read it seems button was not exactly a poor driver.

Karting

Button began karting at age eight after his father bought him his first kart, and he made an extraordinarily successful start. He won all 34 races of the 1991 British Cadet Kart Championship along with the title. Ok so hmmmmmmm that seems pretty impressive.

Further successes followed, including three triumphs in the British Open Kart Championship. In 1997 he became the youngest driver ever to win the European Super A Championship and won the Ayrton Senna Memorial Cup as well, precipitating a move into car racing.

Formula Ford

Aged 18, he contested the British Formula Ford Championship with Haywood Racing and won the title with nine race wins. He also triumphed in the Formula Ford Festival at Brands Hatch, ahead of future Indianapolis 500 winner Dan Wheldon.

At the end of 1998 he won the annual McLaren Autosport BRDC Young Driver Award. His prize included a test in a McLaren Formula One car, which he received at the end of the following year.

Formula Three

Button entered Formula Three in 1999 with the Promatecme team. He won three times - at Thruxton, Pembrey and Silverstone - and finished the season as top rookie driver.

He was third overall in the championship, behind Marc Hynes and Luciano Burti, and finished fifth and second respectively in the Marlboro Masters and Macau Grand Prix (0.035s behind winner Darren Manning in the latter)

The man can drive just as well as hamilton but again did not land a drive in one of the top cars in f1. So comparing the 2 outside f1 seems fair and looks like button knows how to drive really well. Comparing button and hamilton in F1 would be silly. Hamilton trounced button in a far superior car, button is trouncing hamilton now and in the wet button looked like the rain master and not hamilton. So maybe you guys can explain to me hamilton's lack of winning in the wet and button's raw pace in a good car trouncing the field apart from vettel.

Now we all know the honda team had a horrible car, far worse than hamilton's mclaren and in the rain performance difference between hamilton and the rest should go out the window.

Button took the first win of his career in 2006 at a chaotic Hungarian Grand Prix - the 113th Grand Prix start of his career. In doing so he overcame a 10-grid slot penalty for changing his engine (the second driver after Räikkönen to win a race despite this penalty), which meant he started 14th. The race was badly affected by heavy rain.

 

[sand_man]

Well based on what i have read it seems button was not exactly a poor driver.

He isn't a poor driver, quite brilliant in fact but at F1 level he is a ***** poor driver. We talking the pinnacle of motor sport here... How come no one is comparing Button to Schumi and Senna?? After all he's won 3 out of 4 races and is threatening to dominate the season like it's never been dominated in the sports history.

The only reason he's dominating is thanks to a brilliant rear diffuser... Period... So his advantage is a manufactured one and it's as fickle and temporary as the administrative body that gave it to him..

 

[killadoob]

The sad thing is if you read up on his career you can see he is not a poor driver and took 86 points in one season 3rd behind the 2 ferrari's. He is not dominating f1, points wise yes but redbull has been just as fast this year. Look at how vettel stuck with him in the first race and in fact if vettel had not crashed into kubica i don't think he would have won, Vettel got a penalty which ruled him out the next one in terms of winning, button was epic in the rain, redbull finished 1 2 and this last race was only won because vettel got stuck behind hamilton. The redbull has the same pace as the brawn but button has driven really well and you can tell this by his team-mate as you point out. Button and brawn knew they did not have the pace in the last gp but the key moment was out-breaking hamilton and over-taking him leaving vettel stuck behind hamilton and losing a second a lap. Redbull have been unlucky this year but there is no doubt they have the pace to beat brawn.

Well if button can continue like he is i cannot see why he cannot be compared to senna or shummi but he does not drive anything like they did so styles are totally off and would need to be compared to someone who drives with as much class as he does. I know vettel is already being compared shummi. Shummi and senna had the luxury at some point in their career's driving great f1 cars, button has never had that luxury until now and look at what he is doing.

I just find it amusing, hamilton gets put on a pastille when he has a great car but button everyone says just has a good car. Now that hamilton looks like he cannot do anything but coast into 4th they say he has a bad car. Very funny. Why is no one saying hamilton has no talent? He has done nothing of note in that mclaren in terms of winning gp's or even coming close yet button who has had far worse cars than hamilton to drive is branded as someone who is only doing well because of the car. Has button made one mistake this year? Compare that with the amount of blunders hamilton has made.

 

[sand_man]

He is not dominating f1, points wise yes

With all due respect what else is there? I mean the title is decided on points and wins not on what if's.

Shummi and senna had the luxury at some point in their career's driving great f1 cars, has never had that luxury until now and look at what he is doing.

You ever ask yourself why Button's never had the opportunity before now? Do you think it might be something to do with the fact that he is an average driver at this level? You don't think that if he were the amazing talent he looks to be now one of the top teams wouldn't have snapped him up earlier? In fact if Brawn hadn't snapped up Honda, Button would probably be unemployed, that's how good he is...

Why is no one saying hamilton has no talent?

It probably has something to do with the fact that he out performed his illustrious world champion team mate in his rookie year... He's legend...

He has done nothing of note in that mclaren in terms of winning gp's or even coming close

Mclarens a tractor, he's done very well in his tractor this season.. What's Heiki done in his tractor this season, or Kimi or Massa for that matter. What about Alonso this season? You telling me Button is better than those drivers mentioned? Never!!! What about Robert? Button better than him too? Never!!! Brawn engineering FTW!!

 

[killadoob]

See you do not read anything dude, you say nobody wanted button with absolutely no idea, let me show you something because you obviously have no idea of what happened between bar/honda and button.

BAR, who were on the verge of been bought out by Japanese giant Honda, insisted Jenson had a valid contract with them and an argument ensued. Button wanted to leave, BAR wanted him to stay. The issue wasn’t dealt with in a nasty manner, but it did end up going to the Contracts Recognition Board to decide. The CRB favoured with BAR and Jenson had to stay put.

Now should mclaren go to shyte until 2012 and fail to release hamilton if he wants to leave he would be in the same situation as button. I did not even need to look this up because i remember button was not let out of his contract to drive for other teams.

 

[Willie Trombone]

Both Button and Hamilton were two highly rated and talented drivers leading up to F1. Alot of people ran ITV down for rating and raving about JB. It was not merely because of his nationality that he was highly rated.

They were already champions leading up to their introduction to F1. Unfortunately mild followers of the sport don't follow the feeder series and junior series much.

You can't blame Hamilton for having a great car the first couple of seasons. And if you have to talk cars, the Ferrari's were arguably neck on neck with the McLarens for those two years.

Hamilton out performed both Ferrari drivers last year and missed it by one point while beating a bloody great driver in his rookie year. No amount of anything can make a rookie succeed in an identical car at that level without raw talent and well honed skills.

And let me assure you that Alonso was not hired as a backup plan. He was hired as the WC winner and Hamilton was to be his Protege.

Unfortunately there are other drivers who will probably never realise their potential. In the last couple of years I believe we have seen more talent on the grid than we have in a long time, but it's the talent behind the drawing board and in the workshop that sometimes has the last say in this sport...

Then there's the FIA.

 

[killadoob]

May i ask how you feel massa winning more races means he was out driven by hamilton? Not to mention he had a blown engine while in the lead with 3 laps remaining, massa was also dominating everyone when they destroyed his race with that stupid light system, how can you say hamilton out drove massa last season? how does a guy who wins less races out drive someone who wins more? I am not blaming hamilton for landing such a good ride first year out, all i am saying is people are rating him as a great because he has had 2 seasons in an awesome car, button has a few bad seasons with a really poor honda team, manages a win with that poor team and is dominating the pack with a good car but is rated a poor driver with a good car.

Why is it hamilton gets rated after only 2 years in one of the best cars while button get called a driver with a good car. Did nobody see him over-take hamilton? That was not an easy move he out classed the world champ into that corner yet that was only his car and not his driving ability is the general feeling but considering hamilton had kers do you have any idea how good that out breaking was? My point is quite simply a lot of f1 drivers would do as well as hamilton if they started out so well.

Yes the ferrari's and mclarens were neck and neck and you could see it by the end of both seasons with kimi sneaking it in the last race and by hamilton sneaking it in the last corner. Again my point comes back to when has button had a car that can go neck and neck with the ferrari's or mclarens? Funny how flavio can come out say we have world champions driving for mclaren,ferrari and renault but answer me HTF ferrari, mclaren and renault could ever have a world champion with their current cars? Hamilton, kimi and alonso all won in great cars, much the same as button is doing, yet he gets called a driver with a great car instead of a superb driver like kimi, alonso and hammi. What is hamilton doing in his car, coasting into the top 6 now that his car is a slightly faster, what is alonso doing? What is kimi doing?

What are the world champions actually doing in inferior cars? Hamilton 7th with possibly more lost points after his episode of madness, alonso 8th and kimi out the top 10. So tell me how great are these guys? Your only as great as your car i think, shummi made ferrari the team what they are, hamilton landed in the team and did not help build it up from the ground. Senna could drive any inferior car home to a win in the wet as could shummi. I have seen 3 races in the wet where hamilton could have done this but never did and in honesty looked at sea in the rain. While i understand shummi did not do it alone the fact that he was pure genius in a f1 care meant they had a huge stepping stone. How is it redbull can keep pace with brawn without a diffuser but mclaren, ferrari and renault are miles off the pace with world champions driving for them?

 

[milomak]

I think guys like kubica, vettel and glock could have done about the same as Hamilton if their first car was the mclaren of the last 2 seasons.

 

[sand_man]

I think guys like kubica, vettel and glock could have done about the same as Hamilton if their first car was the mclaren of the last 2 seasons.

So what you saying is Kubica, Vettel and Glock would have beaten Alonso driving for Mclaren in 2007?

 

[Willie Trombone]

I think guys like kubica, vettel and glock could have done about the same as Hamilton if their first car was the mclaren of the last 2 seasons.

You are possibly right (although I would exclude glock), having said that, it will always be speculation but again, talent and hard work go together with that tenacity and uncanny ability some people have to 'make their own luck'. Some people just seem to put in the extra when it comes to emotional and mental preparation and that often makes the difference. I can't comment on the three you mentioned since they haven't been in the position to showcase both their talent and their tenacity often enough.

Hamilton does that and Button has just shown us all that he is prepared to put in 110% this year. Last few years? Not easy to tell

When I think of the greats, what they all had in common was the ability to lose by a point and come back firing. Or take points from the opposition even when not challenging for the WC. They have the ability to fail and come back as they are about to start the season from scratch.

Kimi is one of those who lacks that despite his talent and ability.

 

[Willie Trombone]

May i ask how you feel massa winning more races means he was out driven by hamilton? Not to mention he had a blown engine while in the lead with 3 laps remaining, massa was also dominating everyone when they destroyed his race with that stupid light system, how can you say hamilton out drove massa last season? how does a guy who wins less races out drive someone who wins more? I am not blaming hamilton for landing such a good ride first year out, all i am saying is people are rating him as a great because he has had 2 seasons in an awesome car, button has a few bad seasons with a really poor honda team, manages a win with that poor team and is dominating the pack with a good car but is rated a poor driver with a good car.

Why is it hamilton gets rated after only 2 years in one of the best cars while button get called a driver with a good car. Did nobody see him over-take hamilton? That was not an easy move he out classed the world champ into that corner yet that was only his car and not his driving ability is the general feeling but considering hamilton had kers do you have any idea how good that out breaking was? My point is quite simply a lot of f1 drivers would do as well as hamilton if they started out so well.

Yes the ferrari's and mclarens were neck and neck and you could see it by the end of both seasons with kimi sneaking it in the last race and by hamilton sneaking it in the last corner. Again my point comes back to when has button had a car that can go neck and neck with the ferrari's or mclarens? Funny how flavio can come out say we have world champions driving for mclaren,ferrari and renault but answer me HTF ferrari, mclaren and renault could ever have a world champion with their current cars? Hamilton, kimi and alonso all won in great cars, much the same as button is doing, yet he gets called a driver with a great car instead of a superb driver like kimi, alonso and hammi. What is hamilton doing in his car, coasting into the top 6 now that his car is a slightly faster, what is alonso doing? What is kimi doing?

What are the world champions actually doing in inferior cars? Hamilton 7th with possibly more lost points after his episode of madness, alonso 8th and kimi out the top 10. So tell me how great are these guys? Your only as great as your car i think, shummi made ferrari the team what they are, hamilton landed in the team and did not help build it up from the ground. Senna could drive any inferior car home to a win in the wet as could shummi. I have seen 3 races in the wet where hamilton could have done this but never did and in honesty looked at sea in the rain. While i understand shummi did not do it alone the fact that he was pure genius in a f1 care meant they had a huge stepping stone. How is it redbull can keep pace with brawn without a diffuser but mclaren, ferrari and renault are miles off the pace with world champions driving for them?

He didn't outdrive Massa in my books but he had a far more positive attitude and that made the difference. The way he never gave up in that last race is what won it for him.

The bottom line is the requirement for the WC was not race wins but points. If the rules had been race wins, alot of strategies would have been different and alot of race outcomes would have been different. Racing and winning the WC is and has been about alot more than winning more races - that's the rules. When they change, so will people's strategies.

In plain english, Schumi drove a red Benneton designed by RB when he was racing for Ferrari. It's not called spying if you take intellectual property so long as it's not written down - it's still illegal, you just can't prove it. Only a fool doesn't see the team behind the man. Alonso is not that much better than him that he was able to beat him alone despite all his years of experience... the team let him (Schumi) down in the end. Somewhere the engineers weren't able to give him the same edge, it wasn't Schumi that was losing it. Again, back to the car. A brilliant car doesn't make him a bad driver.

You will be surprised how little is between these racers over a couple of laps. A different story when you look at the season. Having said that, Schumi had the same tenacity and self belief that I see in Hamilton, and that was every bit a part of his success as his brilliant driving, just my opinion.

Nobody blames Schumi for having a brilliant team, the same should be said of Hamilton. What I find amusing is the number of people out there who have alot to say about McLaren's ability, how they are an inferior team and in the same breath say that Hamilton is WC because he has the best car. The world if full of those types, it's partly human nature caused by the hype created around the successful F1 sports marketing engine.

Don't believe all the bull around the liegate and spygate issue, there is alot more to it than meets the eye. If you speak, you are not welcome any more. Michael took out Damon hill to win the WC, he tried the same with JV, he also parked his car across the track at Monaco to impede Alonso's qualifying and yet still managed to be the sports personality of the year. It's all in the interest of the marketing engine at the end of the day. It makes bloody huge piles of money and it's suckers like us who spend their lives debating these things that keep the wheels turning

Ask MS if he did all those things and I'm quite sure he will lie. But my opinion in the matter means little. The FIA declared he was lying in the latter event, nothing more happened of it after the race, they would have had an uproar if they did anything about it, it would be counter productive.

 

[killadoob]

Sandman did you see what kubica did in his car last year? Did you see what vettel did in the torro rosso, sorry but kubica and vettel could do what hamilton did, in fact vettel is busy doing it already in a good car. A couple unlucky races for him set him back but he is not far off button. Problem is that it is so hard to really know for sure due to many very talented drivers being lumped in a poor team that never challenges but vettel and kubica are 2 very good drivers and just as good as hamilton, in fact i rate vettel higher than i do hamilton just based on what i saw from him last, man he is was amazing in that torro rosso, reminded of shummi alot and he is also german

MPB massa started last year off with no wins from 2 races and was written off by everyone saying he should not drive for ferrari, they said he would not be here next year. He turned the corner and changed his year, apart from unlucky stuff last year massa gave it everything he had even with such a poor start. Massa never gave up either, he had to win and hope hamilton never got the points he needed and massa and hamilton did what they needed to and it worked out for hamilton, there was nothing between them last year, coming back from massa's start was very positive. I never said it was about winning races, i just pointed out massa won more than hamilton and just based on that fact he was not driven by hamilton. losing by one point is nothing, it is like saying kimi out drove hamilton when he won it which was not the case at all.

MBP i fail to understand one comment from you:

Nobody blames Schumi for having a brilliant team, the same should be said of Hamilton. What I find amusing is the number of people out there who have alot to say about McLaren's ability, how they are an inferior team and in the same breath say that Hamilton is WC because he has the best car. The world if full of those types, it's partly human nature caused by the hype created around the successful F1 sports marketing engine.

You do realize we are into a new season and mclaren is an inferior car to what how it went last year? Ferrari as well awesome car last season, this NEW season it is slow. HAD being past tense has being present tense, he HAD one of the best cars last season, he HAS an inferior car this season. Do you think hamilton would be the driver everyone says he is if he had this years mclaren for the last 2 seasons? I know for sure he would not have challenging for the world championship and won't challenge this year in his mclaren much like many talented drivers in f1.

 

[sand_man]

I've labored the point yet it seems perhaps not enough. Hamilton need not win another race for the rest of his life but IMO he is legend. He will always be the rookie that matched the WC champ, race for race point for point. If anything Hamilton is grossly under rated.

Provide me another example in any sporting code where a rookie has come out and matched/beaten the defending/reigning world champion...