2014 - November Rugby Internationals

[OGroteKoning]

sorry. just read my post and let me just fix something

Then I agree with your friends. Jean is not stupid, if he was allowed to change the game plan when it is not going well, I am sure he would have made the call.

 

[faniebraai]

Everybody is entitled to their opinion.

That they are. But there are ways to discuss things... and then there are ways... He's obviously just trying to entice an emotional reaction. Typical troll. Leaving questions unanswered because it puts him in a difficult position... again, typical troll. We have Midnight Choir Drunk in the Samsung threads doing exactly the same. Troll.

If someone wants to engage in conversation and discussion they must be prepared to defend all aspects of their side of the story...

 

[Sm00thSm0k3]

And he can't tackle for schit

Oh yes that too. How could I forget.

 

[faniebraai]

Then I agree with your friends. Jean is not stupid, if he was allowed to change the game plan when it is not going well, I am sure he would have made the call.

How can he not just take matters in those own hands when the scores are level at 3 a piece, and there are 90seconds left in the first half, and then gets a kickable penalty? I'm sure the game plan said "we want to run more" but if HM was on the field with 90seconds to go in the first half he would've agreed to kick for goal. HM is not stupid either. I think Jean is stupid for not using his brain.

 

[MickeyD]

That they are. But there are ways to discuss things... and then there are ways... He's obviously just trying to entice an emotional reaction. Typical troll. Leaving questions unanswered because it puts him in a difficult position... again, typical troll. We have Midnight Choir Drunk in the Samsung threads doing exactly the same. Troll.

If someone wants to engage in conversation and discussion they must be prepared to defend all aspects of their side of the story...

Then be persistent and remind the member of the outstanding replies - repeatedly. Or place on ignore.

 

[faniebraai]

Then be persistent and remind the member of the outstanding replies - repeatedly. Or place on ignore.

Ah, ignore... now there's a good suggestion.

 

[thestaggy]

I don't agree with your friends ... I think they go on the field and stick with the same plane from beginning to end. I can't remember when last I have seen the Boks change the way they play mid-game ... against Samoa? In 2007? We were battling along and it looked like the Samoans would cause an upset - then our bench (more experienced players) came on and everything changed - even the game plan.

The last time I remember seeing a major shift in game plan was against Argentina in 2005 when we were down 20-16 at half-time after playing running rugby, which seemed to suit the Argentinians on the day. They then came out in the second half and played ''Blue Bulls rugby'', slowing it right down and eventually ground the Argies out for a 34-23 win.

 

[Sneeky]

Steyn's goal kicking abilities will be invaluable in the WC, hence why I foresee him being in the squad.

Other than that he has nothing to offer. Hardly any ball carrying skills and lacks the creativity that Lambie and Pollard bring to the table.

He manages the game exceptionally well, and puts the team in the right places to capitalize and score points.
The other 2 incumbents looks like deer in the headlights, clueless, and just run it up.
They are both great rugby players but if you want to win a world cup they are not the starting choice, can't be.

 

[Zyzzyva]

Getting the springboks to play better rugby is a deeper issue than the coach. The problem is Super 15 and curry cup coaches get entire seasons to slowly mold players, developing their skills and decision making abilities. Springbok coaches on the other hand get a few short weeks to attempt to get a group to function as one as best they can. Over those weeks they might get an hour with individual players, and the bottom line is as much as we want them to, you can't get someone to play and think like a NZ player in a hour. International coaches invariably have to prioritize focussing on the things they can get done that are quick, rather than the finer details we would love them to work on, because time is such a constraint. Once tournaments get going the focus shift even more to preparing for the next game and analyzing the various strengths and weaknesses of the next opponent, rather than trying to teach Jean how to pass and offload. If time is spent working on those things, it's maybe 30 minutes, and sadly 30 minutes just isn't going to get lasting results if a player isn't applying those skills consistently over the season when playing for other coaches and teams. In the heat of battle, a player's hands and feet are always going to favor doing what they have been doing all year, rather than what some coach told them to do for 30 minutes last week Wednesday between analyzing the previous game, media briefings, traveling, trying to remember if Jamie Robert is favoring his left or right side, taking in the new stadium, etc.

The only way things will come right at the top is if Super 15 coaches start doing their jobs better, and collectively as a country we start playing a unified and attacking style, allowing and teaching players to think on their feet.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Getting the springboks to play better rugby is a deeper issue than the coach. The problem is Super 15 and curry cup coaches get entire seasons to slowly mold players, developing their skills and decision making abilities. Springbok coaches on the other hand get a few short weeks to attempt to get a group to function as one as best they can. Over those weeks they might get an hour with individual players, and the bottom line is as much as we want them to, you can't get someone to play and think like a NZ player in a hour. International coaches invariably have to prioritize focussing on the things they can get done that are quick, rather than the finer details we would love them to work on, because time is such a constraint. Once tournaments get going the focus shift even more to preparing for the next game and analyzing the various strengths and weaknesses of the next opponent, rather than trying to teach Jean how to pass and offload. If time is spent working on those things, it's maybe 30 minutes, and sadly 30 minutes just isn't going to get lasting results if a player isn't applying those skills consistently over the season when playing for other coaches and teams. In the heat of battle, a player's hands and feet are always going to favor doing what they have been doing all year, rather than what some coach told them to do for 30 minutes last week Wednesday between analyzing the previous game, media briefings, traveling, trying to remember if Jamie Robert is favoring his left or right side, taking in the new stadium, etc.

The only way things will come right at the top is if Super 15 coaches start doing their jobs better, and collectively as a country we start playing a unified and attacking style, allowing and teaching players to think on their feet.

New Zealand just manages their rugby better overall. All players are contracted through the NZRU and then to the regional unions. And they seem to manage the transition from Super Rugby level to National level way better than us or the Aussies. So when someone has to make the step up from a Super Rugby side to the All Blacks the gap they have to close is smaller than someone from the Cheetahs going into the Springboks, especially if the Springboks are playing Bulls rugby.

On the topic of changing game plan, I think it's coaching. If you coach and emphasise a certain style of play constantly then the players themselves aren't equipped, strategically or tactically, for implementing that change of game plan. Nick Mallett always points out how the All Blacks are just superior with their ball skills, from 1 - 15. I think this allows them more leeway to adapt to a new gameplan quicker and easier than other teams.

 

[Zyzzyva]

New Zealand just manages their rugby better overall. All players are contracted through the NZRU and then to the regional unions. And they seem to manage the transition from Super Rugby level to National level way better than us or the Aussies. So when someone has to make the step up from a Super Rugby side to the All Blacks the gap they have to close is smaller than someone from the Cheetahs going into the Springboks, especially if the Springboks are playing Bulls rugby.

Yeah

When you have essentially no time to coach individual players, the national coach who is given less coaching to do, starts every season with an enormous advantage over opposition teams. Compare Steve Hansen to HM. Hansen gets skilled players used to doing the basics of running rugby from young. He as coach can focus on big pictures issues like game plan, evolving the style to stay ahead of opposition, should we kick more, should we kick less, etc. HM on the other hand has to try and put out a team, using the disorganized scraps he is given, that can beat Steve's team. If he has a stray thought like, "Hey, i think we need to run more", he is then confronted with the small issue of having players who require a lot of coaching - and he just doesn't have time to really change that in a meaningful way. That's why every season when the pressure hits coaches start talking about playing the "South African style" or "playing to our strengths". Even PDivvy, started his time as coach saying he wanted the Boks to play "total rugby" and ended up ceded nearly all control to John and Vic playing a kick/chase borefest.

On the topic of changing game plan, I think it's coaching. If you coach and emphasise a certain style of play constantly then the players themselves aren't equipped, strategically or tactically, for implementing that change of game plan. Nick Mallett always points out how the All Blacks are just superior with their ball skills, from 1 - 15. I think this allows them more leeway to adapt to a new gameplan quicker and easier than other teams.

I'd take Nick over HM any day of the week, the Bulls game plan is a serious problem, but every coach of the last 20 years starts on the back foot, and if we want to see real change we need to change that.

 

[sand_man]

I try... I try! But I think we lack consistency. We have the players to beat any side any day, but somehow they can't do it consistently. And I also think we lack the ability to switch game plans in a game when we realise one isn't working.

We are stupid rugby players, period!! I'm not really sure what switching game plans entails? Rugby is a very simple game! Yes the IRB and rule makers have gone out of their way to make it as complicated as possible but fundamentally it's very simple!

I see only 2 possible game plans:
A.) Kick and chase and hope the opposition makes a mistake
B.) Hold onto the ball, taking it through the phases and force gaps in the oppositions defense.

We don't back ourselves to play game plan B and plan A has a less than 50% chance of working.

Everybody is entitled to their opinion.

Yip, opinions are like a$$ holes, everyone has one and some stink more than others...

 

[sand_man]

Getting the springboks to play better rugby is a deeper issue than the coach. The problem is Super 15 and curry cup coaches get entire seasons to slowly mold players, developing their skills and decision making abilities. Springbok coaches on the other hand get a few short weeks to attempt to get a group to function as one as best they can.

The only way things will come right at the top is if Super 15 coaches start doing their jobs better, and collectively as a country we start playing a unified and attacking style, allowing and teaching players to think on their feet.

Yeah, it's the same for all nations and their national coaches.

SA has a particular brand of rugby as is the case with all other nations.

If we want to play an expansive attacking style of rugby our national coach needs to pick players suited to that brand of rugby.

Again, I say this is where we fall short! We have skillful, dynamic players but unfortunately they've adapted their game to suit their physique and their physique is not necessarily suited to international rugby!

Where NZ/OZ are producing 100kg plus centers that can step off both feet, offload in the tackle, run angles and catch balls regardless of weather conditions we producing 100kg plus centers that run straight and hard and primarily rely on crash ball and don't possess the necessary ball skills.

We need the likes of a Gio Aplon, Juan DeJong, Paul Jordaan, Ebersohn, Johan Goosen, Fourie DuPreez...

 

[Frankie_Yale]

We need the likes of a Gio Aplon, Juan DeJong, Paul Jordaan, Ebersohn, Johan Goosen, Fourie DuPreez...

hear! hear!

 

[sand_man]

hear! hear!

I forgot the mecurial Cheslin Kolbe and Seabelo Senatla...

What's so disappointing is their diminutive stature! There's no way around the physical challenges of international rugby!

Why isn't Cheslin a 190cm, 105kg fullback and Senatla the same on the wing?

 

[sand_man]

Does anyone actually realize how big that Welsh backline was on Saturday?

 

[Frankie_Yale]

What's so disappointing is their diminutive stature! There's no way around the physical challenges of international rugby!

do you know these two gentlemen?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Robinson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shane_Williams

 

[sand_man]

do you know these two gentlemen?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Robinson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shane_Williams

Yeah, great players. The pint sized legends exist, just few and far between in the modern era...

 

[sand_man]

A player I'm really missing is Pierre Spies!! At his best, what a fantastic athlete?! Who's our cover at 8? We don't have a specialist 8.

If I were granted one wish by the rugby Gods, it would be for Pierre to be the man and player he was prior to his illness!

/ and I know I'm going to get flamed for this revelation...

 

[Zyzzyva]

A player I'm really missing is Pierre Spies!! At his best, what a fantastic athlete?! Who's our cover at 8? We don't have a specialist 8.

If I were granted one wish by the rugby Gods, it would be for Pierre to be the man and player he was prior to his illness!

/ and I know I'm going to get flamed for this revelation...

I would have liked to have seen him at centre or wing. Not saying it would have worked, but the bottom line is he just never liked the rough stuff - it was just never in his character.

On the plus side if you have a look at his twitter it's clear he has used the injury period to bulk up a little - he is looking huge.