5 month planned outage for Koeberg Unit 2 to begin soon

itareanlnotani

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Here's demand, notice that it never really drops below 20GW. So magically we stop using power somewhere in the day?? View attachment 1228424

I never said we don't use power, I said power is needed when its needed.

Problem is that we don't need power 24x7
We need power when we need it, and half the day we generally don't, as most people are sleeping.

You can see that we need 10-15GW extra in the daytime - early evening, then load drops off.
Again, we need power when we need it, and thats daytime - early evening.

Just because you all can't get your heads around a simple concept, doesn't mean it's invalid.
 

Lupus

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I never said we don't use power, I said power is needed when its needed.



You can see that we need 10-15GW extra in the daytime - early evening, then load drops off.
Again, we need power when we need it, and thats daytime - early evening.

Just because you all can't get your heads around a simple concept, doesn't mean it's invalid.
So what happens to the 20GW used at night? And where do you see the increase by 10 to 15 during the day?? Do you not know how to read a graph?
 

Johnatan56

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So what happens to the 20GW used at night? And where do you see the increase by 10 to 15 during the day?? Do you not know how to read a graph?
You know wind picks up when the sun goes down, right?
 

Lupus

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You know wind picks up when the sun goes down, right?
Does it really?? Wow you keep saying this like it's fact, where do you even get this 'truth' from? Wind doesn't magically pick up at night, in fact it's pretty consistent, examples UK yesterday grid watch shows that it actually starts to drop around 4pm.
Wacky thing is, so does ours, it's almost like what you said isn't right. Wind dies down during the evening.
Screenshot_20220117_191838_com.android.chrome.jpg Screenshot_20220117_191945_com.android.chrome.jpg
 

Gnome

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They don't specifically list the areas of concern for break-down. They always talk of aging infrastructure but concrete structures can, will and do last hundreds of years. One day when humans are gone the concrete structures will be our legacy.

So I can only assume they mean infrastructure inside the plant. Since they are replacing the primary loop steam generators, and sounds like they recently replaced (or will be replacing, I forget) the control rod mechanism. Including the top of the pressure vessel (where the rods are located). They are increasing the primary coolant loop storage tanks (so increasing the safety margin). They are replacing the instrumentation cables for the core. Sounds like we are down to only the pressure vessel not being replaced (and possible the primary loop coolant pumps which I assume is more regularly serviced and replaced).

I don't like articles that spell doom and gloom on unspecified risks. My thoughts are they don't actually have specific fears, just a general "nuclear bad" kind of fear.
 

itareanlnotani

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They don't specifically list the areas of concern for break-down. They always talk of aging infrastructure but concrete structures can, will and do last hundreds of years. One day when humans are gone the concrete structures will be our legacy.

So I can only assume they mean infrastructure inside the plant. Since they are replacing the primary loop steam generators, and sounds like they recently replaced (or will be replacing, I forget) the control rod mechanism. Including the top of the pressure vessel (where the rods are located). They are increasing the primary coolant loop storage tanks (so increasing the safety margin). They are replacing the instrumentation cables for the core. Sounds like we are down to only the pressure vessel not being replaced (and possible the primary loop coolant pumps which I assume is more regularly serviced and replaced).

I don't like articles that spell doom and gloom on unspecified risks. My thoughts are they don't actually have specific fears, just a general "nuclear bad" kind of fear.
Well, we're definitely not putting in the safety features that the french have mandated in their retrofits for the exact same design, so there is a case to be made for both.
 

Oldfut

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They don't specifically list the areas of concern for break-down. They always talk of aging infrastructure but concrete structures can, will and do last hundreds of years. One day when humans are gone the concrete structures will be our legacy.

So I can only assume they mean infrastructure inside the plant. Since they are replacing the primary loop steam generators, and sounds like they recently replaced (or will be replacing, I forget) the control rod mechanism. Including the top of the pressure vessel (where the rods are located). They are increasing the primary coolant loop storage tanks (so increasing the safety margin). They are replacing the instrumentation cables for the core. Sounds like we are down to only the pressure vessel not being replaced (and possible the primary loop coolant pumps which I assume is more regularly serviced and replaced).

I don't like articles that spell doom and gloom on unspecified risks. My thoughts are they don't actually have specific fears, just a general "nuclear bad" kind of fear.
I wouldn't rely too much on "concrete structures can, will and do last hundreds of years" as it is only if they are designed with that lifespan in mind (also note that conventional concrete has not really been around in this application for very long, less than one hundred years). What was the design life of the critical Koeberg concrete structures?

National roads have (or used to have) an ongoing inspection etc programme (as I am sure Koeberg does?) and there are regular contracts for substantial repairs to structures where, typically, carbonation has reduced the concrete's ability to protect the steel reinforcement. None of this is knocking Koeberg but the detail would be interesting.
 

Lupus

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Earlier this week, Bloomberg reported that UK’s peak-hour electricity prices soared to a one-month high because of low wind power output over the weekend. According to the report, the contract for the 5-6 p.m. slot electricity price in the UK on Monday surged above the 1,000-pounds per megawatt-hour threshold to stand at $1,585 (1,161 pounds) per MWh, according to data from the N2EX exchange.

Wow but I thought wind blows at night...


Also thought renewables were supposed to make things cheaper...
 

Gnome

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Well, we're definitely not putting in the safety features that the french have mandated in their retrofits for the exact same design, so there is a case to be made for both.
Any details, I'm curious

I wouldn't rely too much on "concrete structures can, will and do last hundreds of years" as it is only if they are designed with that lifespan in mind (also note that conventional concrete has not really been around in this application for very long, less than one hundred years). What was the design life of the critical Koeberg concrete structures?

National roads have (or used to have) an ongoing inspection etc programme (as I am sure Koeberg does?) and there are regular contracts for substantial repairs to structures where, typically, carbonation has reduced the concrete's ability to protect the steel reinforcement. None of this is knocking Koeberg but the detail would be interesting.
Since my partner is in the construction industry and I'm privy to how this whole process works. A concrete structure has a "lifetime" which is an estimate. After that time they re-evaluate and make repairs assuming any are required. It happens pretty often that buildings after 100 years are extended for another 50 years. Buildings like the Koeberg building would have had incredible thick concrete pads, so it is unlikely the structure has any problems. They do seem to be concerned about corrosion, likely from the ocean, so they are adding galvanic protection.

This estimation is pretty much true of everything with such long life-spans. Everything is estimates, so I wouldn't put much stock in the "lifetime", it could be better or worse, which is why an engineer should evaluate.
 

itareanlnotani

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Any details, I'm curious


Since my partner is in the construction industry and I'm privy to how this whole process works. A concrete structure has a "lifetime" which is an estimate. After that time they re-evaluate and make repairs assuming any are required. It happens pretty often that buildings after 100 years are extended for another 50 years. Buildings like the Koeberg building would have had incredible thick concrete pads, so it is unlikely the structure has any problems. They do seem to be concerned about corrosion, likely from the ocean, so they are adding galvanic protection.

This estimation is pretty much true of everything with such long life-spans. Everything is estimates, so I wouldn't put much stock in the "lifetime", it could be better or worse, which is why an engineer should evaluate.
See #23

The French are mandating core catchers in their PWR retrofits for safety - those are the same design as Koeberg.

Are we mandating core catchers?

How many guesses should I need to give you.


The petition calls on André de Ruyter, chief executive officer of Eskom, to:

  • Acknowledge that the Koeberg nuclear power station will never be as safe as modern nuclear power station designs;
  • Shut down the station in 2024, as originally planned;
  • Not run the station after 2024 while it lacks modern safety features, such as a core catcher;
  • Avoid the unnecessary load shedding that will result from efforts to extend the station’s life;
  • Not spend billions of rand upgrading a station from the 1970s;
  • Divert the funds allocated for extending the station’s lifespan to support community-owned renewable energy, and work on a permanent solution for the disposal of over 1,000 tonnes of high-level nuclear waste currently at the Koeberg site.

To reierate the French nuclear oversight will not pass any retrofit PWR (like Koeberg) unless they have core catchers.
 

Gnome

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See #23

The French are mandating core catchers in their PWR retrofits for safety - those are the same design as Koeberg.

Are we mandating core catchers?

How many guesses should I need to give you.


The petition calls on André de Ruyter, chief executive officer of Eskom, to:

  • Acknowledge that the Koeberg nuclear power station will never be as safe as modern nuclear power station designs;
  • Shut down the station in 2024, as originally planned;
  • Not run the station after 2024 while it lacks modern safety features, such as a core catcher;
  • Avoid the unnecessary load shedding that will result from efforts to extend the station’s life;
  • Not spend billions of rand upgrading a station from the 1970s;
  • Divert the funds allocated for extending the station’s lifespan to support community-owned renewable energy, and work on a permanent solution for the disposal of over 1,000 tonnes of high-level nuclear waste currently at the Koeberg site.

To reierate the French nuclear oversight will not pass any retrofit PWR (like Koeberg) unless they have core catchers.
Their demands contradict each other. They want a core catcher but not extend the life of the plant. Or does that implicitly mean some of the demands are optional. LOL

Core catcher now would probably mean rebuilding the whole thing. Also I couldn't find any reference that the French government is mandating the core catchers. They are talking about it being possible to add some in some cases but not all.

Either way, this group essentially is fear mongering. Their demands are based on fear and not data. If anything, Eskom should use renewables to shut down coal plants.

Acknowledge that the Koeberg nuclear power station will never be as safe as modern nuclear power station designs;
Definitely don't agree with this statement. The French designed PWR reactors have stood the test of time. The newer generation reactors haven't been operating that long. A lot of modern reactors are about squeezing out more efficiency. I'd love a list of these safety features this specific plant is missing. Even Chernobyl wouldn't have benefitted from a core catcher, other than preventing people digging tunnels, placing a heat sink and stuff (which has now been proven had no effect and the fuel hadn't molten into the ground).
 

itareanlnotani

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Their demands contradict each other. They want a core catcher but not extend the life of the plant. Or does that implicitly mean some of the demands are optional. LOL

Core catcher now would probably mean rebuilding the whole thing. Also I couldn't find any reference that the French government is mandating the core catchers. They are talking about it being possible to add some in some cases but not all.

Either way, this group essentially is fear mongering. Their demands are based on fear and not data. If anything, Eskom should use renewables to shut down coal plants.


Definitely don't agree with this statement. The French designed PWR reactors have stood the test of time. The newer generation reactors haven't been operating that long. A lot of modern reactors are about squeezing out more efficiency. I'd love a list of these safety features this specific plant is missing. Even Chernobyl wouldn't have benefitted from a core catcher, other than preventing people digging tunnels, placing a heat sink and stuff (which has now been proven had no effect and the fuel hadn't molten into the ground).
Thats not my statement, its from the Daily Maverick article.

I highlighted the pertinent bit in bold, together with the link to the article.

My 1st comment was above the Daily maverick link.

My 2nd comment was below that - To reierate the French nuclear oversight will not pass any retrofit PWR (like Koeberg) unless they have core catchers.

----

Koeberg is a CPY/CP1 type 3 loop Framatome reactor design.
i.e. single wall with steel liner design.
As for French EDF - they are only interested in refurb on their EPR and upwards.
The PWR are basically too expensive to make modern and safe.

Why?

The VD4 requirements for the French 10 year life extension from 40-50 years for the CPY series is below:


Page 33,34,35,36 go into essential retrofit. 37-40 go into current retrofit req's.
Page 66 talks about the "core catcher" (on the PWR's this will a system for preventing basemat melt-through).
Page 105,106 go into mandated required safety updates for our model

EDF is mostly of the opinion that the requirements make the PWR refurbs financially unfeasible to implement to meet the new safety requirements. Or, as EDF put it - "Discussions are continuing between the French State and the European Commission on the overhaul of the regulation of the French nuclear fleet, with no certainty of success at this stage."

ASN (the French Nuclear Regulator) is mostly of the opinion that the safety changes needed for the PWR aren't enough to bring them up to safety levels of the EPR series. Pages 81-88
 
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Napalm

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alot of people running aircons and fans at home... Lets see how it hold up. i think in 2months from now the heat will be less.

Solong as it's sorted before winter... cause then people whip out the heaters. those bad boys can pull 2000 to 3000watt just for the kick of it.
 

Lupus

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alot of people running aircons and fans at home... Lets see how it hold up. i think in 2months from now the heat will be less.

Solong as it's sorted before winter... cause then people whip out the heaters. those bad boys can pull 2000 to 3000watt just for the kick of it.
Not a that many, the Western side perhaps but the Eastern side has had a cool wet summer. Even Durban hasn't really had a hot day from what I can see.
 

TheMightyQuinn

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I never said we don't use power, I said power is needed when its needed.



You can see that we need 10-15GW extra in the daytime - early evening, then load drops off.
Again, we need power when we need it, and thats daytime - early evening.

Just because you all can't get your heads around a simple concept, doesn't mean it's invalid.
Yours is nonsensical however....
 

Lupus

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EVERY night?
ALL night?
With ENOUGH force to provide the required energy?
He's gone very quiet over this wind picks up malarkey when I've shown him that it in fact doesn't. It's almost as if wind can do what it wants any hour of the day and you can't guarantee it.
 
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