512k upstream for R100 a month unlimited bandwidth

John · Dec 1, 2003

To my dismay I read that Sentech want's to force one into a
two year contract. They are taking a fat chance, we as consumers have
got to learn to put our foot down. If every potential subscriber
just refuses to sign a two year contract, Sentech will simply have
to compromise. By getting into a contract for two years the wireless
community project connecting Tzaneen to Cape Town will never get of
the ground. If everybody refuses to sign , just what will they do?

The ping speeds between two Access points are 5ms. Pinging over a
couple of access points in a 100km range results in a latency of
100ms. 100ms is about the limit for voice over IP and Gaming.
Only at the end of this 100km link is one backhaul link needed into
www.is.co.za peering point for virtually unlimited internet.

For me the wireless internet access is just a stepping stone
to what I really want to have done with this technology: video surveillance of residential streets.

Practically we do it like this:
1) One AP in repeater mode with a USB port.
2) One USB camera transmitting at 200kbit/s
3) Two R160,00 www.poynting.co.za patch antenna's 5dbi
3) Infra red lamp (about R100) that provides night vision upto
500meters for the video camera at night.
Many R500,00 CCD camera's, in the
presence of infrared LED's or infrared spot light provides night vision better than what a
R20 000 night vision goggle provides. See back issues of www.nutsvolts.com and www.amazing1.com
www.amazing1.com sells infrared spot light.
4) http://www.intrancesoftworks.com sells R64,00 video software
that detects motion. You can use it to catch the crook while he
is still outside your house.
5) This setup is mounted to the town council street light. They will
gladly provide permission for anything that eliminates crime.
5) For an equipment outlay of R3500 a whole street can have
their front entrances watched by anybody with an internet connection ONLy when there is motion at night or day via www.instancesoftworks.com surveillance software.
6) R3500 divided by 40 houses = R87,00 per house
I will edit my links on page one of this thread to include this new
info.
7) Have a security company watch your street during the prime hijacking time 5pm ect. The surveillance options are endless.
8) www.miro.co.za selles an out of the box commercial 2.4ghz
video surveillance sollution

master4eva · Dec 3, 2003

Well, some one made mention of breaking the law and as far as I know, you are breaking the law. Here is some research that I did some time ago about the law:

1) Telkom is to be the sole monolopy of communicaton and digital solutions for telephone and WAN and beyond; hence, these laws were also passed:
2) There is to be no sharing of resources across boundries, as would be drawn by the municipality; no matter what the medium is (which stops the idea of neighbours sharing the same connection).
3) All means of communication is controlled by Telkom - even the radio waves. Telkom has given SABC a signal range for transmission of TV and radio. Even cellular service providers have to rent out their transmission band.

Maybe some one has mentioned this before in the thread but I only got half way to nod my head in shame. 3Gig is ample for a month and if you are a small business, consider that a 100MB traffic is allocated per day. That is more than enough for a small business that has 10 employees... unless they are doing something else which is also deemed illegal or fringe a code of conduct.

If you really are battling with the 3Gig cap and you need international networks to be readily available, then get a leased line - simple as that!

mithrandi · Dec 3, 2003

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Well, some one made mention of breaking the law and as far as I know, you are breaking the law.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The original poster makes this clear.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Local municipalities are openly defying court orders, and will simply
ignore ICASA's or any courts ruling.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<hr noshade size="1">

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Maybe some one has mentioned this before in the thread but I only got half way to nod my head in shame. 3Gig is ample for a month and if you are a small business, consider that a 100MB traffic is allocated per day. That is more than enough for a small business that has 10 employees... unless they are doing something else which is also deemed illegal or fringe a code of conduct.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm sorry, but since when has running Windows Update and Office Update been considered illegal or fringe? At our (very small) company, we can easily do 3GB in a "bad" month just for OS and software updates etc., never mind browsing and e-mail which can also total a few hundred MB, depending. Also, remember that the 3GB is not just downloading, uploading is also included. For reference, we do around 500MB-1GB of uploading every month.

mithrandi

mithrandi · Dec 3, 2003

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">To my dismay I read that Sentech want's to force one into a
two year contract.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Part of the reason for this, I suspect, is that they're not changing for the "modem" unit; so I would assume the cost (R4000 odd) is being distributed over the 24 months. I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a shorter contract, with no "free" modem, making an appearance at some point.

mithrandi

Strobemeister · Dec 3, 2003

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">3Gig is ample for a month and if you are a small business, consider that a 100MB traffic is allocated per day.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well, that might be enough for you, but who says everyones needs are the same. I don't like this kind of dictation. I wanna go online and download as much as i need without worry about crossing some kind of limit. Watching some damn meter, projecting my anticipated downloads throughout the month like i was slicing up a cake. No restrictions, thats what we should be aiming for.

Telkom - South Africa's Handbrake to progress.

mithrandi · Dec 3, 2003

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Watching some damn meter, projecting my anticipated downloads throughout the month like i was slicing up a cake. No restrictions, thats what we should be aiming for.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm not so sure about that. I mean, let's say there are 730 hours in a month == 2628000 seconds; if you are paying (say) R1000/month for a 1Mbps connection (these are just random numbers to make the calculations nice), then you are paying R1000 for around 320GB. In other words, you're paying around R3.13 / GB. However, if you only use 100GB of your 320GB, you still pay for all 320GB effectively. So wouldn't you rather pay just for the bandwidth you use?

Now, of course, it wouldn't actually work out to a nice R3.13 / GB figure. What happens is, the majority of users don't max their connection out the whole time, which is why ISPs get away with having less bandwidth than needed to provide every single customer with full bandwidth at any given second. So, the ISPs rely on the lower-usage customers to subsidise the higher-usage customers, and the actual per GB cost is probably higher. Still, I think in the long run, billing for the actual usage would work out better than just charging a flat fee, and cross-subsidising (compare this to the current screwed up state of medical aids in this country).

You can still pretend that a per MB/GB/whatever fee is a flat fee; just calculate the most you could possibly transfer within a month, and then you can calculate the most you'll ever spend on your internet connection in a month; then just treat any lower bills as a nice bonus

Of course, all of this is assuming reasonable service and reasonable pricing.

mithrandi

lee3d · Dec 20, 2003

I am Co-Admin on Solar's Hub in Bellville. We need more people we have like 40slots still open. Its great for gaming and file sharing and everything else.We need people with money not mouths. [

][8D]

Setting the world free FILE by FILE!!

|ee3d

lee3d · Dec 20, 2003

Join our wireless irc server and have a chat!

diaria.dnip.net:6667

|ee3d

John · Dec 22, 2003

Originally posted by John
 ICASA's main concern is that the Effective Radiated Power levels as laid down by the FCC in the USA is not exceeded, so that the spectrum is preserved.
===============
FOR INTERNET:
The following equipment will be used for the home user setup:

1) Linksys WAP 11 Access Point. Do a search on www.froogle.com a subdivision
of www.google.com for the a list of all the retailers and then take the
cheapest price: R450
www.arrowaltech.co.za sells antenna's
2) The antenna's we get from www.fab-corp.com
They are very cheap, a Yagi retails for R400. A parabolic for R350
3) A weatherproof box to house the linksys Access point.
4) Microwave signal cable connecting the antenna to your access point.
5) From the Access Point installed on your roof, a ethernet cable is run down into
you PC ethernet card.
5) The whole setup should cost your no more than R2000 for the individual home user.
Laying fiber, even less.

The base station serving 50 users would be a dual 2.ghz/ 5.8ghz system with detachable antenna mounted on
street light or a highsite. Metal we get directly from ISCOR plant, for the highsite if
needed.
=====================
INTERFACING OUR NETWORK TO THE PRIVATE SECURITY COMPANY:

1) You want to catch the crook while he is still outside the house.
2) Mount a pet safe passive infrared detector outside your house.
3) When activated CHUBB security can visually see what is outside your house
while you are in town.
=====================

TRAFFIC MONITORING FOR THE TOWNCOUNCIL:

a) Finally we mount a camera on the street light for the towncouncil for traffic control and crime surveilance.
Cameras we get from:
www.polarisusa.com
www.ramseykits.com
www.4atv.com
www.matco.com
b) This is important as it will be the LEGAL excuse for having a backhaul antenna at 5.8ghz
c) The roads belong to town council therefore our datasignal can cross the roads legally.

d) This legal argument was used by JASCO electronics when they mounted their wireless video surveilance
systems for town council. ICASA could not touch them.

e) The JHB CBD can implement the internet over the video signals they send for crime prevention, somebody must
just point this out to them.
=========================

HIJACK PREVENTION:

1) By mounting a video camera on every street light the police can monitor streets where a gunshot has just gone off.
2) The gunshot sensing sensors are very cheap and can distinguish between an exhaust backfire and gunshots.
3) A SYSTEM LIKE THIS IS used by the New York Police department in inner-cities.
4) This is my video version of SMS crime prevention strategy of Andre Snyman.

Nobody will ofcourse pay for such system unless they are getting service, with this scheme they will: INTERNET
==================

In summary:

I am proposing that town council replaces Telkom as the relayer of our signal.
WE MUST MERGE
a) Traffic monitoring
b) Hijack hotspot surveilance linked directly to the police station.
c) Personal house monitoring with pet safe passives.
d) Voice over IP
e) Hijack gunshot detection.
f) Internet
into one seemless whole. This way it becomes LEGALLY impossible to say that that tower is used for internet , and that tower for traffic monitoring, or that tower to monitor a hijacking hotspot.

John · Dec 29, 2003

http://peertech.org/LongShotWiFiTiming
http://www.ydi.com/calculation/som.php
http://sandbox.bellanet.org/~onno/the-guide/wifi/ch-2-wifi-infrastructure.doc

Icasa limits ERP power to 100mw. I can't figure out if they would
make an allowance for 24dbi parabolic point to point connections,
as this would obviously exceed 100mw. This would not polutte the
2.4ghz spectrum though , because the signal is directional.

So it would seem that p-t-p links longer than 8km would violate
ICASA regulations. This is problem for me as I want to put up a p-t-p
link from Hazyview to Nelspruit , a distance of 40km

Any ideas, to prevent icasa from confiscating my highsite?
It is virtually impossible to get hold of them on the phone.

http://freenetworks.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2003/9/12/204639/364
The link above describes how the new wi-fi standard 802.16 that
transmits at 70mbits over a 30 mile distance can be used to roll
your own phone network, using www.locustworld.com free opensource
mesh networking software.

Perdition · Jan 4, 2004

If ICASA don't have the resources to answer a telephone then it is probably unlikely they have the resources to mission all over the country detecting directional signals over trivial distances. If I were you I would simply put up the site and leave it at that, chances are nothing would ever happen. While it isn't legal and not the best attitude, why should you follow the rules if they can't even extend the common courtesy of answering your request?

John · Jan 5, 2004

The issue is that Icasa and telkom will leave you alone if you just
muck around with 2.4ghz antenna's over a few km radius and remain below below ERP levels, but the moment you start bypassing them
by linking directly into www.is.co.za , Telkom will raise all hell.

It impossible for them really to stop Pretoria opensource community
from using www.locustworld.com mesh networks to link into Internet
solutions, because they will simply partner with Local council and
pay them some monthly protection money.

My problem is that the signal will leave Nelspruit municipal area crossing goverment national roads and to get some decent bandwidth
you will have to use 5.8ghz and a power amplifier.

The sad thing is that Hazyview/Kruger national park is a major international tourist destination, but there is no blinking broadband, which severly undercuts our economic profile.

Studies conducted by the United Nations have shown a dramatic increase
in economic activity in third world countries where broadband has been introduced.

Ok, we have been over this again and again , why am I not hearing about even an attempt to put up a backhaul link into www.is.co.za peering point under the protection of local council?

Has nobody even yet contacted JHB towncouncil mmh ?
After all these posts are acually nothing going to happen?

Internet solutions want's at least R10 000 a month before they allow
a direct link. R10 000 between just 30 people is R333.00
each. Just 12 people who pay R950 for ADSL a month, could get this thing going. With 40 ADSL subscribers you can start digging up the
roads to lay fiber , so that the backhaul antenna's is not so obvious
to the telco monopoly, who would be watching the peering points like
hawks.

A major reason why Icasa will not challenge local council on their
legal right to let data cross the streets that they own, is that
if Icasa loses a court ruling the flood gates for wireless would be
opened up. The ANC would then either leave the status quo or amend
legislation to deal with the fact that a court has ok'd Local council replacing Telkom as the final leg to the internet backbone.

Nobody likes losing court cases , for Icasa it would make them look
like morons and undermine their authority.

So why on earth is this thing just not getting of the ground???

Wireless linking Tzaneen
to Cape Town

Solar · Jan 6, 2004

Go have a look at nodedb.com in the Cape Town area... we're very much on our way to our own community network. And, the record for the longest 802.11b link (still remaining within 100mW power output) was set by a university in the states a month or so ago... they used parabolic dishes to send the signal more than 60km's. This test was done in the desert, but I think there is much more we can still do with this wireless technology.

I read Telkom's take on the whole thing when they gave their opinion on ICASA's site. They said the following: 802.11b is a short range technology that can be used over a maximum of 600m's. What total bullsh*t.

Well, we've currently got two access points running, which is interconnected, and serving about 15 people.. unfortunately we're not as close to a peering point as the guys in JHB, so we'll have to see what sentech has to offer when they deploy in CPT.

John · Jan 7, 2004

Finally got through to Icasa today. Spoke to Joe Kgamedi who himself laid criminal charges at Sandton Police station against wireless operators. Phineas Molele is the present lawyer dealing with this issue. His number 011 321 - 8395
Icasa has several cases against commercial providers of wireless internet, laid with the Commercial crimes division of the SAPS, this includes www.wisp.co.za

Joe said that Icasa does not mind people forming a mesh node--www.nodedb.com , as long as nobody gets charged a fee to roam such a network and that the 100mw rule is obeyed. The whole spirit of the telecoms act and Icasa's interpretation of it is that the moment you start charging for your telecommunciations service you must obtain
a license from ICASA, nomatter what frequency you use.

I will phone them tomorrow again to find out who gave Sentech a license, I don't think Icasa did.

He is aware of Centurion council setting up parabolic antenna's all over Verwoerdburg but since they are not providing a commercial service Icasa is ok with it.
Concerning my legal arguments and opensource community way of getting into IS peering point as laid out in this thread, he said that my arguments are actually quite good from a legal perspective. For them to lay a charge they must be able to prove that an individual is
providing internet access on a commercial basis. With my scheme it would be impossible to identify such an individual because nobody would be making any money out of the scheme. An opensouce community pays www.is.co.za directly for the bandwidth. Since we as an opensource community are not providing a commercial service, Icasa can't touch us. Since Local council is not providing a commercial service but using the network for traffic /hijack monitoring, Icasa can't touch them!! So we actually don't even need local council to make this whole thing work.

The risk of becoming a 'wyfie' is only www.is.co.za. But they have a VANS license, and I really don't think that the SAPS is going to hunt them down.

Joe said that they would only pursue a case against www.wisp.co.za and not against the individual subscribers to www.wisp.co.za service. So the absolute worse that could happen to us as an opensource community , is we would lose our internet connection to the
peering point. Internet Solutions would ultimately have to take the rap and IS are not afraid of Icasa.

Icasa is fully aware of the argument that the streets belong to local council and that this gives them the right to send data across the streets, as long as they don't charge for it, is what Joe Kgamedi added.

Buffalo City in the Eastern Cape had their long range point -to- point equipment confiscated , because of violating the 100mw rule and interfering with Telkoms equipment.

He said I should contact SAPS commercial crimes division , find out who the investigating officers are that are dealing with www.wisp.co.za and www.gin.co.za and ask them just how determined they are to pursue this issue.

Personally I think that a Captian with a B.com accounting degree with literaly thousands of multi-million rand pyramid scams to investigate has got better things to do with his time then hunt down people who is trying to pull cloud-coo-coo land out of the dark ages !

Andre · Jan 8, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Solar
 Go have a look at nodedb.com in the Cape Town area... we're very much on our way to our own community network..
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Can you guys provide lat/long information on where your nodes are?

John · Jan 8, 2004

Finally got to speak to the main man Andries Mathysen.
To use his exact words: " Ons vlerkies is geknip wat betref Wireless "
There is nothing they can do to stop www.wisp.co.za and www.gin.co.za. The commercial crimes division of the police told them bluntly that the SAPS has got better things to do with their time then pursue a case where not one single precedent setting rouling
has been set by a court. Especially now with the entrance of Sentech to the wireless game. Sentech obtained a VANS lisence from Icasa, to provide wireless service's on a commercial basis. Andries said that Sentech's entrence to the wireless domain made it even more difficult for Icasa to take legal action against wireless operators, because of the legal issues it raises concerning Telkoms claim to
sole right to transmit signals.

Andries confirmed that Local council has the legal right to transmit data signals across the streets, the streets belong to them. He said there is a law that makes in nearly impossible to prosecute local goverment. They essentially can do what they want. Andries had serious discussions with Jhb local council over their effort to set up long distance point-to-point links and warned Jhb council that they will confiscate their parabolic antenna's.
(www.locustworld.com mesh networks is a solution where long range point-to-point links are not allowed)
Asked why he has not yet confiscated Centurion council's parabolic mounted on the traffic light as you enter Centurion, he could not answer me.

Icasa legalised private residences using Access points because it is very difficult to prove that somebody is violating the 100mw rule or sending data across the street.
1) To prove a case you need witnesses
2) You need to prove that the ap sent data across the street.
You cant just walk into somebody's home, you need a court order.
Icasa just gave up and legalised what everybody was doing in anycase.

In summary:
a) My scheme to use local council and pay them protection money will work, Icasa can't touch local council. They can't even confiscate www.wisp.co.za antenna's...
b) Local council digs up the road just infront of Internet solutions peering point and lays fiber, from the council building the backhaul link is established to the opensource community's backhaul link.
c) This way only local council will take flack from Icasa and not Internet solutions, because IS is providing internet for council , and council then in turn provides this to us.

Solar · Jan 8, 2004

John, is there any way we can get the fact that ICASA doesn't care about "community node networks" that's provided free of charge in writing. I have a few access points running, and certainly don't care about the risks involved, but as soon as I want to set up an access point on a public property, all kinds of questions are raised.

Thanks,
Christiaan

John · Jan 12, 2004

Our main difficulty is that Andries will confiscate a highsite mountain top parabolic installation the moment Telkoms reports it to him. SO MAKE THE mountain HIGHSITE A PRIVATE RESIDENCE! [

]Put an unemployed person on top of the mountain, build him a longdrop, a small brick house. Now Andries can't just send
out his storm troopers with their confiscation order, he must first ask very please at a judge. After the court order has been obtained the police actually climb the mountain, the unemployed person just removes the coax cable. Icasa tests the the now signal less parabolic antenna, finds no proof that a signal was transmitted and has to leave 'druipstert'. Even if Icasa confiscates the R300,00 parabolic antenna, we just wait till they are gone, then put back another antenna of R300.

Icasa can't possibly obtain a court order every single day over and over again. Remember they have to absolutely prove that a signal was sent from the parabolic, to do this they must have physical access to the antenna and measure the actual signal. There are many creative ways of foiling such an attempt. Essential is that there must
be an actual person living at the highsite fulltime. The moment Icasa would be able to prove that a signal was transmitted from the highsite, it would make it legally difficult to oppose them from getting another court order. The unemployed person is essential as, as Icasa would have to make a legal case against him. Once they somehow obtain an injuction agains him, we just replace him with another unemployed person!!!

Icasa can't obtain a summons against a residence, ONLY AGAINST AN INDIVIDUAL! We the opensource masters behind the scene will have the paperwork proving that the unemployed person is renting the residence from 'us'. After months, Icasa finally nails him, he goes back to trust land where he is untraceable and we get another unemployed peson!!

Icasa is trying to enforce some highly interpretable law for very narrow vested interests using a third-world legal system, while they actually need the US legal system to enforce their rulings. They have lost and Andries knows this. He despaired to me "Oor n paar jaar met die tegnologie sal ons Telkom moet toe maak" or more accuratly Icasa 'toemaak'.

This whole thing for Icasa is not about saving Telkom, it is about saving Icasa. Icasa has proposed keeping half the licensing fees, what they want is for the wireless ISP's to pay them massive licensing fees.

h) Icasa has a confiscation order and can take down any antenna installation without a summons if it is not located on A PRIVATE RESIDENCE. The police have had to pay out large fines to people who's residences they just entered without a summons.

The moutain highsites are absolutely essential to build out a wireless internet backbone. Without them it is impossible to link outlying areas to the www.is.co.za peering points, and only those communities closest to them will have latency and lag
free internet access. Low latency are critical for VoIP, video confrencing and gaming.

For entrepeneurs like Christiaan above, I propose a opensource
commercial partnership. So Christiaan would go to 10 people and, goodness sakes not tell them about the theoretical possibility of
receiving sex education, just that they can have 300kb/sec for R400
a month by buying the bandwidth from him, and he will do all the installation work ect.

A mountain site would be either private owned or council owned. With council you would have to do some serious 'partnering'.. Icasa would use every possible legal threat against the private owner. Therefore
the need to create a residence and rent to an unemployed person.
To prevent squating by the unemployed person he would have to sign
a contract where he waives all his rights to appeal to a court. This
is what Virgin Atlantic make all the Virgin gym subscribers sign. They can't sue for negligince , breach of contract nothing. The recent
fiasco with property ownenrs not being able to evict non-paying tenants, could have been avoided had the landlord made the tenant
sign away all his rights in the presence of a lawyer, as the courts
would nullify such a contract had there been coercien.

A great concern is the eroding of private property rights by the ANC
and this is adressed as just described.

Perdition · Jan 12, 2004

John it appears your focus has shifted from obtaining fast and cheap internet access to a personal vendetta against Icasa. I think most people would rather just pay the little bit extra to Sentech and not have to worry about losing connectivity as a result of their "hobo on the hill" forgetting to unplug the coax [

]

vincent · Jan 13, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Perdition
 John it appears your focus has shifted from obtaining fast and cheap internet access to a personal vendetta against Icasa. I think most people would rather just pay the little bit extra to Sentech and not have to worry about losing connectivity as a result of their "hobo on the hill" forgetting to unplug the coax [

]

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I must agree with Perdition:
This originally started as an interesting thread. Even though it was somewhat above my level of technical competence and understanding, I got the gist of it and it seemed like a likely option/alternative, though I must add that the legal aspects of the whole idea worried me a bit.

Now that it involves purchasing land and building a house on a hill and installing several homeless people one after the other I'm beginning to wonder if 1 April has come early for some people. This whole thing is getting more and more far-fetched. At this point I will bail out of giving consideration to joining some community group as was initially the idea.

Vincent

512k upstream for R100 a month unlimited bandwidth

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