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- Thread starter John
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I spoke nearly an hour with you on the phone masquerading as a concerned Telkom shareholder. Actually we are a countrywide network of people that aim to use the new 802.16e/d Wi-Fi technology to set up our own phone network. 802.16e provides 70meg bandwith over 50km radius, Non-line of site from a single Omni-directional antenna in the 2.4ghz band. The main innovation is the Non-line of site. http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20030714S0037
At present one can easily spot a parabolic on a highsite and confiscate it, with 802.16 and an omni partially hidden it would be more difficult. 20 of these antenna's would be able to link Nelspruit to Pretoria so that you can make a phone call on the Nelspruit wireless hub(802.11b) with your PC and pay only local call costs in Pretoria. With 200 of these Omni's/ 802.16 AP you could create your own phone network in Johannesburg. 802.16 is a replacement for expensive fibre in developing countries.
Our immediate goals is to deploy 802.11b in a opensource community effort in partnership with Local council. We will allow Local council to use our network in return for them protecting the network against 'happenings'. Local council can't be criminally prosecuted. Council owns the streets that the data cross, it is legal for them to transmit internet and data signals. You might differ on this, but your views are academic, the prosecuting authority can't take action against council by law. And since the the 13db omni-directional antenna was installed on my roof by council and they use an internet signal to transmit traffic data, they at the same time allow me to surf the web. This is 100% legal because as stated the roads belong to council and your differing views are academic.
Local council lays the fibre to Internet Solutions peering point and from the 5.8ghz parabolic backhaul link the internet signal gets sent to the wireless hub. Local council becomes a Wireless ISP. The opensource mesh incurs all the costs for such a network. It is this websites aim to explain this to council. Mutual goals can be achieved by a residence and council partnership in deploying www.locustworld.com meshboxes.
The police and prosecutors don't even know what you are talking about. For example Eskom complains that Limpopo province prosecutors can't understand how you can steel electricity. According to the prosecutors you can't steel something you can't see! I doubt they will view your requests with much patience.
Allow me to let the cat out of the bag for you. You did speak to the prosecuting authority and he told you that he can't help you. And this little secret you will never admit to.
THE NDPP WILL NOT PROSECUTE ANYBODY FOR USING LEGAL LICENSE FREE ICASA Aproved equipment (like D-link). That is their stance nomatter what the law says on data crossing streets ! They just don't care and neither would lawmakers in private discussion. It is against the law to swish against the wall in public, yet in open defiance people do, as long as you don't urinate on my head, you won't be arrested. AS long as I dont aim my parabolic strait into Telkom's highsite, no action will be taken.
Not one single precendent setting case has gone to court. This is significant for individuals to do their wi-fi thing. Because the first person to be charged would be http://www.wisp.co.za and the other commercial providers like http://www.gin.co.za If the powers are not even attempting to shut down the COMMERCIAL WISP's, just what are the chances of them hunting down a council/private opensource non-profit mesh network?. Especially if the thing is so 'meshed', that every parabolic-on-roof-residence can prove that council installed the thing.
As you admitted to me freely over the phone:
"Ons vlerkies is geknip wat betref wireless". Indeed....
You told me, you would never make a case against the subscriber to a WISP service only against the COMMERCIAL provider of a WISP service.
Do you see the interesting legal situation this presents to the council/opensource mesh network? Council can't be prosecuted by law because the streets belong to them (they are in anycase a law unto themselves, ask JHB ratepayers), they installed the antenna on the roof, the prosecutors don't care a wit..... you get my point.
The parabolic's can also be hidden inside the tiled roofs of residences. I am sure that a plastic 'brick' like tile in appearance could be made. It would reduce the parabolic strenght by about half, but since the nodes are spaced no more than 5km intervals, it won't make much difference. In most cases, trees would make this non-feasable.
The only real teeth you had was the fact that the wi-fi equipment was so expensive. Not anymore, confiscation of a council highsite would be budgeted for the by the opensource/council mesh and another point set up. At present council is being ripped of by private wireless companies. Council must seperate the cost of the equipment from the labour.
The email concerning Nelspruit's wi-fi link is to see if you will really confiscate their highsites. I you don't it would show how lame ICASA really is. If you do , it shows that we better not go ahead with our plans! Read the thread on http://www.myadsl.co.za/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=944
At present one can easily spot a parabolic on a highsite and confiscate it, with 802.16 and an omni partially hidden it would be more difficult. 20 of these antenna's would be able to link Nelspruit to Pretoria so that you can make a phone call on the Nelspruit wireless hub(802.11b) with your PC and pay only local call costs in Pretoria. With 200 of these Omni's/ 802.16 AP you could create your own phone network in Johannesburg. 802.16 is a replacement for expensive fibre in developing countries.
Our immediate goals is to deploy 802.11b in a opensource community effort in partnership with Local council. We will allow Local council to use our network in return for them protecting the network against 'happenings'. Local council can't be criminally prosecuted. Council owns the streets that the data cross, it is legal for them to transmit internet and data signals. You might differ on this, but your views are academic, the prosecuting authority can't take action against council by law. And since the the 13db omni-directional antenna was installed on my roof by council and they use an internet signal to transmit traffic data, they at the same time allow me to surf the web. This is 100% legal because as stated the roads belong to council and your differing views are academic.
Local council lays the fibre to Internet Solutions peering point and from the 5.8ghz parabolic backhaul link the internet signal gets sent to the wireless hub. Local council becomes a Wireless ISP. The opensource mesh incurs all the costs for such a network. It is this websites aim to explain this to council. Mutual goals can be achieved by a residence and council partnership in deploying www.locustworld.com meshboxes.
The police and prosecutors don't even know what you are talking about. For example Eskom complains that Limpopo province prosecutors can't understand how you can steel electricity. According to the prosecutors you can't steel something you can't see! I doubt they will view your requests with much patience.
Allow me to let the cat out of the bag for you. You did speak to the prosecuting authority and he told you that he can't help you. And this little secret you will never admit to.
THE NDPP WILL NOT PROSECUTE ANYBODY FOR USING LEGAL LICENSE FREE ICASA Aproved equipment (like D-link). That is their stance nomatter what the law says on data crossing streets ! They just don't care and neither would lawmakers in private discussion. It is against the law to swish against the wall in public, yet in open defiance people do, as long as you don't urinate on my head, you won't be arrested. AS long as I dont aim my parabolic strait into Telkom's highsite, no action will be taken.
Not one single precendent setting case has gone to court. This is significant for individuals to do their wi-fi thing. Because the first person to be charged would be http://www.wisp.co.za and the other commercial providers like http://www.gin.co.za If the powers are not even attempting to shut down the COMMERCIAL WISP's, just what are the chances of them hunting down a council/private opensource non-profit mesh network?. Especially if the thing is so 'meshed', that every parabolic-on-roof-residence can prove that council installed the thing.
As you admitted to me freely over the phone:
"Ons vlerkies is geknip wat betref wireless". Indeed....
You told me, you would never make a case against the subscriber to a WISP service only against the COMMERCIAL provider of a WISP service.
Do you see the interesting legal situation this presents to the council/opensource mesh network? Council can't be prosecuted by law because the streets belong to them (they are in anycase a law unto themselves, ask JHB ratepayers), they installed the antenna on the roof, the prosecutors don't care a wit..... you get my point.
The parabolic's can also be hidden inside the tiled roofs of residences. I am sure that a plastic 'brick' like tile in appearance could be made. It would reduce the parabolic strenght by about half, but since the nodes are spaced no more than 5km intervals, it won't make much difference. In most cases, trees would make this non-feasable.
The only real teeth you had was the fact that the wi-fi equipment was so expensive. Not anymore, confiscation of a council highsite would be budgeted for the by the opensource/council mesh and another point set up. At present council is being ripped of by private wireless companies. Council must seperate the cost of the equipment from the labour.
The email concerning Nelspruit's wi-fi link is to see if you will really confiscate their highsites. I you don't it would show how lame ICASA really is. If you do , it shows that we better not go ahead with our plans! Read the thread on http://www.myadsl.co.za/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=944
TheRoDent
Cool Ideas Rep
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2003
- Messages
- 6,218
This is all very interesting and clever, etc.
Just one problem.
The fscking town council can't even manage to get my electricity bill RIGHT, month on month, and attempting to filter through their bureaucracy is neverending battle.
How do you propose to communicate with council about technically, and legally complicated issues such as 802.x wireless communications?
Really, when last have you tried?
Just one problem.
The fscking town council can't even manage to get my electricity bill RIGHT, month on month, and attempting to filter through their bureaucracy is neverending battle.
How do you propose to communicate with council about technically, and legally complicated issues such as 802.x wireless communications?
Really, when last have you tried?
Interestingly enough it seems making ure own little neighbourhood wifi is becoming a lot less dangerous cause even PC format this month had a question in from a guy who wanted to know how to link him and his neighbour up wirelessly. the funny thing is that pc format replied told the guy how to do it but didnt even through a word in for legaslation. could also be that pc format is originally a uk based company so they dont know the laws that well down here.( iknow they got offices down here but most of their stuff is just repackaged brit pc format)
Proud South african rip offs.
Proud South african rip offs.
Ja well no fine - their actual objective is to sell mags to make a profit, not necessarily to provide relevant and appropriate guidance to their readers, even though this is the spin they may put on it. So the uninformed will fall for it, get into trouble, and tune more people off to the fact of ICT as a truly enabling mechanism to make things better. It's for this reason that I don't buy mags anymore (besides their unjustifiable cost), because they're usually filled with advertorial junk eschewing the brilliance of the latest gadget, with truly relevant comment on the appropriate use of the technology within various contexts sorely lacking...
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Juice</i>
<br />Ah yes, the eleventh commandment South Africans are so fond of.
Thou shalt not get caught.
Breaking the law is wrong, whether it's a stupid law or not. Just because a law doesn't suit you does not give you the right to do what you want to. Sure, we all dislike the Telkom monopoly, but do we really want to make ourselves guilty of a crime? While the police waste their time tracking down supposedly law-abiding citizens, the real criminals who are harder to find are walking free. Stop wasting the police's time with petty crime!
Juice
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Just because it was legal for the Nazis to persecute and execute Jews at the time, does not make it moral or acceptable (or even right).
Where laws are unjust, resistance may lead to change.
The 12th commandment of South Africans:
"Thou shall eat all the **** and ask for more."
With that said, just remember that there are constructive ways to get things done as well. Just making a point.
It's like having to have to pay a TV licence for a PC monitor. (Or even for a TV which is used for CCTV or DVD only)
Laws are there to protect the majority from people who are unscrupelous. Not to help the unscrupelous exploit the majority.
<br />Ah yes, the eleventh commandment South Africans are so fond of.
Thou shalt not get caught.
Breaking the law is wrong, whether it's a stupid law or not. Just because a law doesn't suit you does not give you the right to do what you want to. Sure, we all dislike the Telkom monopoly, but do we really want to make ourselves guilty of a crime? While the police waste their time tracking down supposedly law-abiding citizens, the real criminals who are harder to find are walking free. Stop wasting the police's time with petty crime!
Juice
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Just because it was legal for the Nazis to persecute and execute Jews at the time, does not make it moral or acceptable (or even right).
Where laws are unjust, resistance may lead to change.
The 12th commandment of South Africans:
"Thou shall eat all the **** and ask for more."
With that said, just remember that there are constructive ways to get things done as well. Just making a point.
It's like having to have to pay a TV licence for a PC monitor. (Or even for a TV which is used for CCTV or DVD only)
Laws are there to protect the majority from people who are unscrupelous. Not to help the unscrupelous exploit the majority.
I try to make it a point buying the local and international mags everymonth (though i can prbly pay off my car with it easy)just for the simple reason that there may be something in there that i dont know.
Sure fine i scan my hardware/tech/science favourite site twice daily but there is always the chance ure gonna miss an unique opinion.
Solar what type of AP do u use? where can i get one locally?
Proud South african rip offs.
Sure fine i scan my hardware/tech/science favourite site twice daily but there is always the chance ure gonna miss an unique opinion.
Solar what type of AP do u use? where can i get one locally?
Proud South african rip offs.
To deploy a wireless network and shift the legal blame to somebody else but not to council do the following:
Establish a commercial WISP company. This company 'sells' you a service (at cost of course) installs the equipment and takes full legal responsibility. The regulator has a case against the
commercial providers like www.gin.co.za>www.gin.co.za not against the subscribers to their service. So if an opensource mesh establishes their own 'commercial' company with Joe Soap as the director.... , then poor 'Joe' will have to take the rap , if there is ever a clamp down on the commercial providers. This seems to be the most viable option. In my discussion with Andries Matthysen he confirmed that absolutely no action would be taken against the hundreds of subscribers to WISP.co.za only against the directors of WISP. ICASA recommended that the directors of Megawan be prosecuted not their subscribers. (The police and prosecutors ignored Icasa)
There is no legal difference between subscribing to Joe Soap's commercial wisp or to www.wisp.co.za
sawireless2000@yahoo.com
Establish a commercial WISP company. This company 'sells' you a service (at cost of course) installs the equipment and takes full legal responsibility. The regulator has a case against the
commercial providers like www.gin.co.za>www.gin.co.za not against the subscribers to their service. So if an opensource mesh establishes their own 'commercial' company with Joe Soap as the director.... , then poor 'Joe' will have to take the rap , if there is ever a clamp down on the commercial providers. This seems to be the most viable option. In my discussion with Andries Matthysen he confirmed that absolutely no action would be taken against the hundreds of subscribers to WISP.co.za only against the directors of WISP. ICASA recommended that the directors of Megawan be prosecuted not their subscribers. (The police and prosecutors ignored Icasa)
There is no legal difference between subscribing to Joe Soap's commercial wisp or to www.wisp.co.za
sawireless2000@yahoo.com
I currently live in London and have a 512kb broadband connection which costs me £24.99 per month. Even in rands it is cheap and this is due to the competitive market over here. There are still some people who actually complain about the cost, but it is becoming more acceptable to share your broadband using wireless. I for one use my laptop with wireless connection to my ADSL more than my PC in the study which has a LAN connection.
The 802.11 is a none licensed frequency and you can do as you please. Here in the heart of London, my wireless is the only one I can detect so not to many people actually uses wireless. That said, the Brits are too lazy and would never try to boost their signal using external antenna.
My friends and I will never move to a new house which is not covered by ADSL (broadband). Strange to believe, but not all of the UK is covered by broadband yet. The difference here is that the government “forces” competitive prices and even BT (which is Telkom’s equivalent) is forced to drop their rates. The British equivalent to ICASA, checks prices and supply and will sue a company on the peoples behalf to keep competition alive. In SA the government is reliant on their income from monopolies like Telkom and Sentech to boost their income and thus allow the people to be taken for suckers.
My problem: I am looking to move back to SA within the next 2 years, but have grown dependent on my internet connection and the absence of a good service would even stop me from moving back to my home town if there is no affordable solution there. That is why I have been looking around the net to find out what is actually happening.
My question: What can I do legally to start a commercial WASP similar to gin.co.za or wasp.co.za but still have some kind of “protection” for my client and the company? The technical side is straight enough.
[?]
The 802.11 is a none licensed frequency and you can do as you please. Here in the heart of London, my wireless is the only one I can detect so not to many people actually uses wireless. That said, the Brits are too lazy and would never try to boost their signal using external antenna.
My friends and I will never move to a new house which is not covered by ADSL (broadband). Strange to believe, but not all of the UK is covered by broadband yet. The difference here is that the government “forces” competitive prices and even BT (which is Telkom’s equivalent) is forced to drop their rates. The British equivalent to ICASA, checks prices and supply and will sue a company on the peoples behalf to keep competition alive. In SA the government is reliant on their income from monopolies like Telkom and Sentech to boost their income and thus allow the people to be taken for suckers.
My problem: I am looking to move back to SA within the next 2 years, but have grown dependent on my internet connection and the absence of a good service would even stop me from moving back to my home town if there is no affordable solution there. That is why I have been looking around the net to find out what is actually happening.
My question: What can I do legally to start a commercial WASP similar to gin.co.za or wasp.co.za but still have some kind of “protection” for my client and the company? The technical side is straight enough.
[?]
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My question: What can I do legally to start a commercial WASP similar to gin.co.za or wasp.co.za but still have some kind of “protection” for my client and the company? The technical side is straight enough.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
If you want legal protection, you would probably need to apply for the same kind of licenses granted to Sentech.
If you want legal protection, you would probably need to apply for the same kind of licenses granted to Sentech.
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by raybez</i>
<br />Who?
What?
How much?
Who do I contact?
What license would be required?
How much could it possibly cost?
I am totally in the dark regarding licensing and it seems like you guys (and girls) have done some homework.[:I]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
A guy from ICASA told us a while back that the only way to get caught is to cause interference with telkom's wireless network and/or to market the product on a large scale with the idea of earning cash, I don't see the community thing being such a problem, been doing it for almost 2 years now. Also, keep in mind that ICASA doesnt instantly send you to jail, they usually first conviscate your equipment, which is then usually when you stop.
The 2.4ghz band is unlicensed which means you can't get a license (a VANS license is about the best you could do), people using this technology in the "right" way as dictated by ICASA are not guaranteed that a charlie down the street also using the same technology isnt going to cause interference and render both networks inoperable.
For an idea on pricing, Vodacom paid R100 000 000.00 for the 900 MHz frequency band, so you can imagine what it would cost even if you could license 2.4ghz.
<br />Who?
What?
How much?
Who do I contact?
What license would be required?
How much could it possibly cost?
I am totally in the dark regarding licensing and it seems like you guys (and girls) have done some homework.[:I]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
A guy from ICASA told us a while back that the only way to get caught is to cause interference with telkom's wireless network and/or to market the product on a large scale with the idea of earning cash, I don't see the community thing being such a problem, been doing it for almost 2 years now. Also, keep in mind that ICASA doesnt instantly send you to jail, they usually first conviscate your equipment, which is then usually when you stop.
The 2.4ghz band is unlicensed which means you can't get a license (a VANS license is about the best you could do), people using this technology in the "right" way as dictated by ICASA are not guaranteed that a charlie down the street also using the same technology isnt going to cause interference and render both networks inoperable.
For an idea on pricing, Vodacom paid R100 000 000.00 for the 900 MHz frequency band, so you can imagine what it would cost even if you could license 2.4ghz.
You see the beauty of my system is that once Icasa serves notice
to one of our very own community sponsored commercial WISP's, we
just change the name, change the directors ect.. I had great
difficulty in convincing people to start a community based thing.
They are scared stiff of Icasa's sabre rattling, but had absolutely
no problem with subscribing to www.gin.co.za or www.wisp.co.za
You can phone Andries if you like, he has taken legal action
against www.wisp.co.za ( he laid criminal charges) not against
the subscribers.
They wan't somebody else to take the legal blame, with our own
commercial WISP selling us the service at cost, we can.
I have fired of an email to Andries Matthysen explaining this to
him, so he can back off.
Highsites will remain a problem though, we just mount the
antenna's on a roof and add more nodes. Once ICASA comes knocking at your door , just show them the legal papers proving the Joe Soap
commercial wisp services installed the thing, say you are very sorry
you did not know....
take the thing off and place it somewhere else , rerouting the
signal.
to one of our very own community sponsored commercial WISP's, we
just change the name, change the directors ect.. I had great
difficulty in convincing people to start a community based thing.
They are scared stiff of Icasa's sabre rattling, but had absolutely
no problem with subscribing to www.gin.co.za or www.wisp.co.za
You can phone Andries if you like, he has taken legal action
against www.wisp.co.za ( he laid criminal charges) not against
the subscribers.
They wan't somebody else to take the legal blame, with our own
commercial WISP selling us the service at cost, we can.
I have fired of an email to Andries Matthysen explaining this to
him, so he can back off.
Highsites will remain a problem though, we just mount the
antenna's on a roof and add more nodes. Once ICASA comes knocking at your door , just show them the legal papers proving the Joe Soap
commercial wisp services installed the thing, say you are very sorry
you did not know....
take the thing off and place it somewhere else , rerouting the
signal.
An airship that carries wi-fi equipment. Imagine a wi-fi highsite a couple of km in the air. With just one of these airships the entire Gauteng area can be covered. It allows wireless roaming also which would be a threat to the Cellphone companies.
The end user on the ground simply aims his antenna towards the sky
where the stratelite sits 20km up in the stratosphere.
http://www.shorecliffcommunications.com/magazine/news.asp?news=1652
www.wirelessdevnet.com/news/2002/303/news5.html
www.eetimes.com/pressreleases/bizwire/134183
By linking these Stratellites accross the Atlantic ocean the fiberoptic link from South-Africa to Europe can be bypassed. An
entire IP network can be rolled out in the most undeveloped
country if only their goverments would allow it.
Quote..."
This will allow us to deploy a complete IP network in a country virtually overnight and greatly speed up the deployment of our Super Hub technology by solving the last mile issue that most countries face. Deploying Stratellites over the Atlantic corridor traveled by commercial airliners to provide uninterrupted phone and Internet service is one of many services that can be offered"
The airship wi-fi technology is patented by www.sanswire.com
802.16 provides Cellphone like roaming capabilities with extremely
high data rates. Current costs are R70 000 for a basestation and
R7000 for an enduser. These costs will come down as it is adopted.
The main ICASA busting feature is that where at present you need a
highsite (which Andries will confiscate), with 802.16 protocol your roof can be a highsite. The Fresnel zone effect is negated. The 802.16 uses advanced mathematical algorithms developed by Intel to elimenate interference from the signal hitting the ridge of an obstacle in the Fresnel zone of the signal.
This thread is beginning to worry Sentech. Got an email from one of
their resellers today Powerline Networks advising me that all this
stuff is 'illegal'. I asked him to refer me to one single ruling by
a judge that it is illegal....
The end user on the ground simply aims his antenna towards the sky
where the stratelite sits 20km up in the stratosphere.
http://www.shorecliffcommunications.com/magazine/news.asp?news=1652
www.wirelessdevnet.com/news/2002/303/news5.html
www.eetimes.com/pressreleases/bizwire/134183
By linking these Stratellites accross the Atlantic ocean the fiberoptic link from South-Africa to Europe can be bypassed. An
entire IP network can be rolled out in the most undeveloped
country if only their goverments would allow it.
Quote..."
This will allow us to deploy a complete IP network in a country virtually overnight and greatly speed up the deployment of our Super Hub technology by solving the last mile issue that most countries face. Deploying Stratellites over the Atlantic corridor traveled by commercial airliners to provide uninterrupted phone and Internet service is one of many services that can be offered"
The airship wi-fi technology is patented by www.sanswire.com
802.16 provides Cellphone like roaming capabilities with extremely
high data rates. Current costs are R70 000 for a basestation and
R7000 for an enduser. These costs will come down as it is adopted.
The main ICASA busting feature is that where at present you need a
highsite (which Andries will confiscate), with 802.16 protocol your roof can be a highsite. The Fresnel zone effect is negated. The 802.16 uses advanced mathematical algorithms developed by Intel to elimenate interference from the signal hitting the ridge of an obstacle in the Fresnel zone of the signal.
This thread is beginning to worry Sentech. Got an email from one of
their resellers today Powerline Networks advising me that all this
stuff is 'illegal'. I asked him to refer me to one single ruling by
a judge that it is illegal....
<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by TuRbO</i>
<br />depach wheres the site.........?
[8D][8D][8D]
[xx(][xx(][xx(]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
On its way
give it a day or 3
to err is human - to totally **** things up requires a pc.
<br />depach wheres the site.........?
[8D][8D][8D]
[xx(][xx(][xx(]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
On its way
give it a day or 3to err is human - to totally **** things up requires a pc.