8 Years of Bush

[Glock26]

The threat will always be there, but don't be silly in thinking that it didn't make a difference.
At least 16 planned terrorist attacks in various regions were thwarted by the USA's "rampant disregard for civil liberties"
WTF does that mean anyways? I thought that applied more to places like the UK with cameras following a person's every move in the streets, or the removal of the right to self defence, or the law allowing interception and reading of all main and email?
Most the USA laws are practiced worldwide. And the fact that there hasn't been a single attack on US soil since 9/11 proves that the methods they do employ work.
Some of you are way to young to remember what it was like to be scared to go out to a Wimpy or church for fear of not coming home.
If you had 9/11 happen here, I think most of the liberals here would be crying hysterically like babies and begging someone to please do something.

G26

 

[LazyLion]

The threat will always be there, but don't be silly in thinking that it didn't make a difference.
At least 16 planned terrorist attacks in various regions were thwarted by the USA's "rampant disregard for civil liberties"
WTF does that mean anyways? I thought that applied more to places like the UK with cameras following a person's every move in the streets, or the removal of the right to self defence, or the law allowing interception and reading of all main and email?
Most the USA laws are practiced worldwide. And the fact that there hasn't been a single attack on US soil since 9/11 proves that the methods they do employ work.
Some of you are way to young to remember what it was like to be scared to go out to a Wimpy or church for fear of not coming home.
If you had 9/11 happen here, I think most of the liberals here would be crying hysterically like babies and begging someone to please do something.

G26

+1 I remember the days of being searched when entering the Mall... and seeing those bomb bags under a glass case in case someone found a bomb. Pictures of people blown to bits in the newspapers. People whine about their "civil liberties" and "freedom"... but when it comes to dealing with the threats countries like the US and Israel lead the way. Nobody likes them when they do it... but show me a better plan?

 

[Hosehead]

The threat will always be there, but don't be silly in thinking that it didn't make a difference.
At least 16 planned terrorist attacks in various regions were thwarted by the USA's "rampant disregard for civil liberties"
WTF does that mean anyways? I thought that applied more to places like the UK with cameras following a person's every move in the streets, or the removal of the right to self defence, or the law allowing interception and reading of all main and email?
Most the USA laws are practiced worldwide. And the fact that there hasn't been a single attack on US soil since 9/11 proves that the methods they do employ work.
Some of you are way to young to remember what it was like to be scared to go out to a Wimpy or church for fear of not coming home.
If you had 9/11 happen here, I think most of the liberals here would be crying hysterically like babies and begging someone to please do something.

G26

Ohhh. Well so you know for sure that there were 16 more attacks attempted. Wow. Did you have access to classified info or did you take the spoon fed drivel you were fed so the Administration could justify the millions spent.
9/11 was the ONLY attack on US soil- There was never one in modern history outside Pearl harbour. The only reason US antiterror laws are practiced in some countries is because if they want to send their airliners to the US they have no choice but to comply with security standards.
many of us might be too young to remember the fear of random terror attacks, but 9//11 was but one single event. there are some of us who lived in constant fear of bombings (eg. During the IRA campaigns in London and Northern Ireland- remember Omagh) These frequent random attacks ate away at the core of peoples psyche- which is what terrorists want. (look at the Basques ETA today and several groups worldwide)
I don't recall liberals crying like babies. They took it in stride.
That there hasn't been an attack on US soil since 9/11 does NOT conclusively prove that the methods "they" employ work. With all the mexicans streaming over the all but open borders and the open borders with Canada to the north, if the Jiadists or whatever the US call them surely would have no problem sending in suicide bombers - but for the grace of god, that hasn't happened.

 

[Albereth]

Bush only achieved Police State status for America at the cost and rampant disregard for civil liberties. And forget the sugarplum notion that any difference has been made by the Administration to thwart Global Terrorism. Terrorism has always existed- long before America was founded and always will be with us in a myriad of forms. The US Policies have made not an iota of diffference in dealing with terrorism. The threat will always be there.

Yep - that threat will always remain. And I suppose that I could have added the cynical view that now the USA has made itself the target of choice which gives us respite in the good old ZA.

And we'll never know if terrorism levels have been reduced but I do believe that Iraq was a wake up call to the rogue states that the USA will thump them if there is even a hint of support for terrorism.

 

[Albereth]

JFK did OK in the Cuban Missile Crisis.

The closest the world has ever been to a nuclear war? Thank goodness the Russians blinked.

 

[Slootvreter]

So what if only 3% think he wasn't one of the greatest ever..that is meaningless. More importanly...if 46% say he was poor, then 54% probably think he was good. And he was. GB was a victim of a liberal media that needs a story every now and then and does the same thing that they do to any celebs in the USA and the world.

+1. They voted him in twice, after all.

 

[Glock26]

Ohhh. Well so you know for sure that there were 16 more attacks attempted. Wow. Did you have access to classified info or did you take the spoon fed drivel you were fed so the Administration could justify the millions spent.

.***deleted***
Btw..here are just some of the ones that are public knowledge. (Not including 16 others mentioned) Not all on American soil, but many of those aren't mentioned for obvious reasons.
You guys seem to think that because it isn't spoonfed to you via the media, it doesn't happen.
You might want to ask your own SA govt about ***deleted****
Oh wait...wasn't published, so never happened, right?

• May 2003, Iyman Faris: American citizen charged with plotting to use blowtorches to collapse the Brooklyn Bridge.

• June 2003, Virginia Jihad Network: Eleven men from Alexandria, Va., trained for jihad against American soldiers, convicted of violating the Neutrality Act, conspiracy.

• August 2004, Dhiren Barot: Indian-born leader of terror cell plotted bombings on financial centers (see additional images).

• August 2004, James Elshafay and Shahawar Matin Siraj: Sought to plant bomb at New York's Penn Station during the Republican National Convention.

• August 2004, Yassin Aref and Mohammed Hossain: Plotted to assassinate a Pakistani diplomat on American soil.

• June 2005, Father and son Umer Hayat and Hamid Hayat: Son convicted of attending terrorist training camp in Pakistan; father convicted of customs violation.

• August 2005, Kevin James, Levar Haley Washington, Gregory Vernon Patterson and Hammad Riaz Samana: Los Angeles homegrown terrorists who plotted to attack National Guard, LAX, two synagogues and Israeli consulate.

• December 2005, Michael Reynolds: Plotted to blow up natural gas refinery in Wyoming, the Transcontinental Pipeline, and a refinery in New Jersey. Reynolds was sentenced to 30 years in prison.

• February 2006, Mohammad Zaki Amawi, Marwan Othman El-Hindi and Zand Wassim Mazloum: Accused of providing material support to terrorists, making bombs for use in Iraq.

• April 2006, Syed Haris Ahmed and Ehsanul Islam Sadequee: Cased and videotaped the Capitol and World Bank for a terrorist organization.

• June 2006, Narseal Batiste, Patrick Abraham, Stanley Grant Phanor, Naudimar Herrera, Burson Augustin, Lyglenson Lemorin, and Rotschild Augstine: Accused of plotting to blow up the Sears Tower.

• July 2006, Assem Hammoud: Accused of plotting to bomb New York City train tunnels.

• August 2006, Liquid Explosives Plot: Thwarted plot to explode ten airliners over the United States.

• March 2007, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed: Mastermind of Sept. 11 and author of numerous plots confessed in court in March 2007 to planning to destroy skyscrapers in New York, Los Angeles and Chicago. Mohammedalso plotted to assassinate Pope John Paul II and former President Bill Clinton.

• May 2007, Fort Dix Plot: Six men accused of plotting to attack Fort Dix Army base in New Jersey. The plan included attacking and killing soldiers using assault rifles and grenades.

• June 2007, JFK Plot: Four men are accused of plotting to blow up fuel arteries that run through residential neighborhoods at JFK Airport in New York.

• September 2007, German authorities disrupt a terrorist cell that was planning attacks on military installations and facilities used by Americans in Germany. The Germans arrested three suspected members of the Islamic Jihad Union, a group that has links to Al Qaeda and supports Al Qaeda's global jihadist agenda.

 

[Glock26]

Captured an al Qaeda operative named Ali Salih al-Mari in the United States who we believe was targeting water reservoirs, the New York Stock Exchange, and United States military academies.
· Al-Mari offered himself as a martyr to Khalid Sheikh Mohammad (the mastermind of 9/11) who sent him to the U.S. after he received training in poisons at an al Qaeda camp.

· May 2002, Jose Padilla ‘Dirty Bomb’ Plot
·American citizen accused of seeking radioactive-laced “dirty bomb” to use in an attack against America.
·Padilla was convicted of conspiracy in August, 2007
· 2002 Aviation Plots
· Al Qaeda leader in Southeast Asia known as Hambali recruited Jemaah Islamiyah of Asian origin (less conspicuous)
· Plot derailed in early 2002 with international cooperation.
· Library tower is the tallest building west of the Mississippi (1,018’)
· Among the 25 tallest buildings in the world.
· September 2002, Lackawanna Six
· FBI Thwarted the locally recruited terrorist cell the “Lackawanna 6” by the capture of Juma al-Dosari in Afghanistan and subsequent interrogation while imprisoned at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
· Six American citizens of Yemeni origin convicted of supporting Al Qaeda after attending jihadist camp in Pakistan.
· Five of six were from Lackawanna, N.Y.
· Summer/Fall 2001: FBI agents in New York receive anonymous tips from Yemeni-American community in New York that a local group of men is conspiring and training with Al Qaeda to commit acts of terrorism against the U.S.
· Several implicated men are put on the FBI terrorist watch list and detained upon return from Pakistan.
· Al Dosari is captured in Afghanistan in November 2001 and subsequently reveals the greater plot in New York to recruit.
· “Lackawanna 6” were arrested and convicted of supporting Al Qaeda and plotting terrorist acts.
· May 2003, Brooklyn Bridge Plot

· American citizen Iyman Faris was charged with plotting to use blowtorches to collapse the Brooklyn Bridge.

· After being introduced to Al Qaeda operatives, NY & federal authorities intercepted a plan to collapse the Brooklyn Bridge by cutting suspension cables as well as potentially derailing a train en route to Washington, D.C.

· Faris was arrested by the FBI after they intercepted a phone call to Al Qaeda operatives in Pakistan

· Faris was offered and accepted a deal to work as a double-agent for the U.S., helping the FBI with their anti-terrorist intelligence collection.

· June 2003, Virginia Jihad Network

· 11 men from Alexandria, VA, trained for jihad against American soldiers, convicted of violating the Neutrality Act, conspiracy.

· 11 Muslim men were charged in U.S. District Court in Alexandria with training with and fighting for Lashkar-i-Taiba (a group fighting the Indian government that the U.S. government considers a terrorist organization.

· Several members of the group were found to have trained for future attacks by using paintball facilities in the Northern Virginia area.

· August 2004, Financial Centers Plot

· Dhiren Barot Indian-born leader of terror cell plotted bombings on financial centers.

· Barot plotted a “memorable black day of terror” via a dirty bomb that targeted financial institutions in NY, D.C. and Newark.

· Barot was arrested at his home in Pakistan with the cooperation and help of U.S. and U.K. anti-terror authorities.

August 2004, Penn Station Plot

· James Elshafay and Shahawar Matin Siraj sought to plant a bomb at New York’s Penn Station near Madison Square Garden during the Republican National Convention.

· The New York City Police Departments Intelligence Division helped to conduct an investigation leading to the arrests.

· An undercover agent infiltrated the group, provided information to authorities, and later testi fied against Elshafay and Siraj.

· August 2004, Pakistani Diplomat Assasination Plot

· Two leaders of an Albany, New York, mosque Yassin Aref and Mohammed Hossain, were charged with plotting to purchase a shoulder-fired grenade launcher to assassinate a Pakistani diplomat.

· An investigation by the FBI, the Trea sury Department’s Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms, and the local police contributed to the arrest.

· With the help of an informant, the FBI was able to set up a sting that lured Mohammed Hos sain into a fake terrorist conspiracy. Hossain brought Yassin Araf, a Kurdish refugee, as a wit*ness. The informant offered details of a fake terror ist plot, claiming that he needed the missiles to murder a Pakistani diplomat in New York City. Both agreed to help.

· June 2005, Father and son Terror Camp Plot

· In California, Pakistani immigrants Umer Hayat and Hamid Hayat, father and son, were arrested in June 2005 after allegedly lying to the FBI about the son’s attendance at an Islamic terrorist training camp in Pakistan.

· Umer and Hamid Hayat were charged with attending terrorist camp training in Pakistan and later found guilty of sup porting terrorism and customs violations.

· The son, Hamid Hayat, was sentenced to 24 years for supporting terrorism while the father, Umer Hayat, was convicted of customs violations including an attempt to carry $28,000 into Pakistan.

· August 2005, Orange County, California, Terror Plot

· In August 2005, Kevin James, Levar Haley Washington, Gregory Vernon Patterson and Hammad Riaz Samana were arrested in Los Angeles, California, and charged with conspiring to attack Los Angeles National Guard facilities, syna gogues, and other targets in the Orange County area.

· Kevin James allegedly founded a radical Islamic prison group and converted Levar Wash ington and others to the group, which was known as J.I.S., short for Jamiyyat Ul-Islam Is-Saheeh

· The J.I.S. allegedly planned to finance their operations by robbing gas stations.

· After Washington and Patter son were arrested for robberies, police and federal agents began a terrorist investigation when a search of Washington’s apartment revealed a suspicious target list.

· December 2005, Gas Lines Plot

· Michael C. Reynolds was arrested by the FBI in December 2005 and charged with being involved in a plot to blow up a Wyoming natural gas refinery; the Transcontinental Pipeline, a natural-gas pipeline stretching from the Gulf Coast to New York and New Jersey; and a New Jersey Standard Oil refinery.

· He was arrested trying to pick up the $40,000 owed him for planning the attack.

· His purported contact, Shan nen Rossmiller, was a Montana judge who was working with the FBI.

· The FBI later found explo sives in a locker in his home town, Wilkes-Barre, PA.

· Reynolds claimed that he was working as a private citizen to find terrorists.

· Reynolds was convicted of providing material support to terrorists, soliciting a crime of violence, unlawful distribution of explosives, and unlawful possession of a hand grenade and sentenced to 30 years in prison.

· February 2006, Iraq Bomb Building Plot

· In Toledo, Ohio, Mohammad Zaki Amawi, Mar wan Othman El-Hindi, and Wassim Mazloum were arrested in February 2006 for “conspiring to kill or injure people in the Middle East” and providing material support to terrorist organizations.

· They allegedly intended to build bombs to be used in Iraq.

· The investigation was begun through the help of an informant who was approached to help train the group.

More to follow

 

[Glock26]

· April 2006, U.S. Capitol & World Bank Plot

· Syed Haris Ahmed and Ehsanul Islam Sadequee from Atlanta, Georgia, were accused of conspiracy, having discussed terrorist targets with alleged ter rorist organizations.

· They allegedly met with Islamic extremists and received training and in struction in how to gather videotape surveillance of potential targets in Washington area.

· They videotaped places such as the U.S. Capitol and the World Bank headquarters as potential targets and sent the videos to a London extremist group.

· They were indicted for providing material support to terrorist organizations and have pled not guilty.

· June 2006, Sears Tower Plot

· Narseal Batiste, Patrick Abraham, Stanley Grant Phanor , Naudimar Herrera, Burson Augustin, Lyglenson Lemorin, and Rotschild Augstine were arrested in Miami and Atlanta in June 2006 for allegedly being in the early stages of a plot to blow up the Sears Tower in Chicago, as well as the FBI offices and other buildings.

· The arrests resulted from an investigation involving an FBI informant. It is alleged that Narsearl Batiste was the leader of the group and first suggested attacking the Sears Tower in December 2005.

· July 2006, New York City Train Tunell Plot

· Eight suspects, including Assem Hammoud, an al-Qaeda loyalist living in Lebanon, were arrested for plotting to bomb New York City train tunnels.

· Conducting on-line surveillance of chat rooms, the FBI discovered a plot to attack underground transit links with New Jersey.

· Ham moud was a self-proclaimed operative for al-Qaeda and admitted to the plot. He is currently in cus tody in Lebanon, and his case is pending. Two other suspects are in custody in other locations, and investigators continue to hunt down the other five suspects.

· August 2006, Liquid Explosives Plot

· Planned to blow up as many as 12 U.S.-bound passenger jets using liquid explosives hidden in carryon luggage.

· U.S./British authorities had the group under surveillance for many months.

· Many of the suspects were British citizens of Pakistani origin.

· March 2007, Skyscraper Plot

· Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, mastermind of Sept. 11 and author of numerous plots confessed in court in March 2007 to planning to destroy skyscrapers in New York, Los Angeles and Chicago.

· Mohammed also plotted to assassinate Pope John Paul II and former President Bill Clinton.

· May 2007, Fort Dix Plot

· Result of a 16 month investigation by Justice Dept and FBI .

· Tipped off by an alert citizen (a video processing worker) .

· Suspects had taken an incriminating video to the store to be transferred to DVD.

· Video showed calls for jihad and radical and violent ranting in Arabic, included images of the men firing assault weapons.

· “The Ft. Dix Six” thought to be a leaderless, homegrown cell of immigrants from Jordan, Turkey and Yugoslavia (not believed to be tied to Al Qaeda).

· All six suspects were convicted in December 2008.

· June 2007, JFK Plot

· Suspects planned to hit fuel farms and a 40-mile aviation fuel supply pipeline.

· Specifically, they targeted the symbolism of JFK, seeking to invoke an emotional reaction saying “It’s like killing the man twice.”

· Suspects were tied to extremists groups in South America and Caribbean, specifically Guyana and Trinidad .

· One suspect was a former airport cargo worker.

· September 2007, Americans Terrorists in Germany

· German authorities disrupted a terrorist cell that was planning attacks on military installations and facilities used by Americans in Germany.

· The Germans arrested three suspected members of the Islamic Jihad Union, a group that has links to Al Qaeda and supports Al Qaeda’s global jihadist agenda.

Enough?

 

[Hosehead]

...........
The first.

Btw..here are just some of the ones that are public knowledge. (Not including 16 others mentioned) Not all on American soil, but many of those aren't mentioned for obvious reasons.
You guys seem to think that because it isn't spoonfed to you via the media, it doesn't happen.
You might want to ask your own SA govt about those 4 little backpack nukes sitting on the table in that underground hanger that have never been mentioned in any "SA nuclear disarmament" claims.
Oh wait...wasn't published, so never happened, right?

Well, a quick look at the first three incidents on the list is much ado about nothing I'm sure if one spent time and researched all the other incidents one would find no imminent threat.

(Sears tower bombing accused)
"At the time of the arrests, federal agents said the group's plans were "aspirational rather than operational," and posed no real threat because they had neither al Qaeda contacts nor the means of carrying out attacks."


US Capitol Plot
"In March 2005, Sadequee and Ahmed both traveled to Toronto aboard a Greyhound bus, to meet with Fahim Ahmad Jahmaal James and another youth,[5] who they had spoken to online about their mutual interpretations about Islam and jihad.[6] While the group discussed hypothetical scenarios in which North America was attacked, the government noted there was "no imminent danger".Police informant Mubin Shaikh later stated that he believed the two Americans had been asking whether they would be able to hide in Canada if they were to carry out attacks in the United States.[6]

Ahmed was arrested after videotaping "significant commercial buildings"[7] and charged with providing material support to a terrorist group,[8] to which he pleaded not guilty. Initially, all documents in the case were sealed at the joint request of the government and Ahmed, but the following month, the indictment was unsealed at the government's request. In a bail hearing for the other U.S. resident charged in the matter, Ehsanul Islam Sadequee, prosecutors alleged that Ahmed and Sadequee traveled to Washington, D.C. to make "casing videos" of the United States Capitol building, the World Bank, a Masonic temple, and a fuel depot, and that Sadequee had then sent the video to London propagandist Irhabi007.[5]

After several men were arrested in Toronto in June 2006 on charges of terrorism, Ahmed was publicly named as being suspected of being a colleague of theirs

As of dec 2008 they are still awaiting trial"


Hudson River Bomb plot

"On July 7, 2006, the FBI announced that they had foiled a plot that was in its "talking phase" by foreign militants to detonate explosives in tunnels connecting New Jersey with Manhattan and drown the New York financial district with a torrent of water. This was unfeasible because the tunnel is embedded in bedrock, and the target is above sea level.[1] The report, however, made international news.[2] The government initially protested about how the story was leaked to the New York Daily News.[3]"

 

[Glock26]

..And forget the sugarplum notion that any difference has been made by the Administration to thwart Global Terrorism.

So first you say that no difference has been made, and then when they thwart any plots before they are carried out, you say they are much ado about nothing? Have you read that list? I am sure the families of some of the people in areas where these were planned are a little more grateful.
We all know you would much rather have them actually carried out...but please try and keep that to yourself, thanks. Much appreciated.

G26

 

[Hosehead]

So first you say that no difference has been made, and then when they thwart any plots before they are carried out, you say they are much ado about nothing? Have you read that list? I am sure the families of some of the people in areas where these were planned are a little more grateful.
We all know you would much rather have them actually carried out...but please try and keep that to yourself, thanks. Much appreciated.

G26

Have you got a brain? The plots that I listed, could hardly be called "thwarted" if the government admitted there was no imminent threat The perps got locked up because of changes brought about by the new anti-terror legislation which makes it easy to lock up anybody remotely suspected of commiting nefarious acts which probably includes talking about or even thinking of them.
The point is not so much about simple liberties taken away but the fact that the current administration, using 9/11 as an excuse, have trampled all over the US Constitution with an air of disdain.
Americans have gone a bit far with this "terrism" paranoia and for you to state that , in your words, "We all know you would much rather have them actually carried out..."I don't know which Royal "we" you are referring to, but you would not only be an idiot, to really think that, but you come across as a bible waving, button down collared, high fiving, fundamentalist loony.

 

[rwenzori]

One point is that many of these so-called "terrorist" plots could have, should have, and probably would have been discovered without the need to ride roughshod over the American constitution if the relevant agencies were doing their jobs properly.

Another point is that there is probably also a lot of counter-propaganda at work. WMDs and all that cr@p.

Yet another is that the heavy-handed militaristic approach to the whole issue, including a little war or two, merely makes the problem worse. It addresses the symptoms not the causes.

Barack says he is going to shut down Gitmo soonest - let's hope he does.

 

[LazyLion]

Barack says he is going to shut down Gitmo soonest - let's hope he does.

What do you suggest should be done with international terror suspects? Should they be given the same legal treatment as a citizen of the United States? Be tried in a civilian court? even though some of them have tried to wage war on the United States? Just wondering what your viewpoint is.

I think Gitmo was a fair place to detain these guys. The problem was not with the place... it was with the methods used. They blew it by not following the Geneva convention on the treatment of war prisoners.

I do NOT think they should start with civilian trials... that just becomes a media cricus. Clinton started that with the suspects in the first World Trade Center bombing. Those guys should have been tried in a military court. They were not citizens of the USA and they tried to wage war on the US. They do not deserve the same rights as citizens of the US.

 

[Slootvreter]

I think Gitmo was a fair place to detain these guys. The problem was not with the place... it was with the methods used. They blew it by not following the Geneva convention on the treatment of war prisoners.

The problem I have with this is that it doesn't seem to matter what atrocities were committed by the suspects and how they did it with no remorse, the rest of the world still expect that they be wrapped in cotton.

 

[Glock26]

Have you got a brain? The plots that I listed, could hardly be called "thwarted" if the government admitted there was no imminent threat The perps got locked up because of changes brought about by the new anti-terror legislation which makes it easy to lock up anybody remotely suspected of commiting nefarious acts which probably includes talking about or even thinking of them.
The point is not so much about simple liberties taken away but the fact that the current administration, using 9/11 as an excuse, have trampled all over the US Constitution with an air of disdain.
Americans have gone a bit far with this "terrism" paranoia and for you to state that , in your words, "We all know you would much rather have them actually carried out..."I don't know which Royal "we" you are referring to, but you would not only be an idiot, to really think that, but you come across as a bible waving, button down collared, high fiving, fundamentalist loony.

Now now....take a pill or something.
3 Examples of non-critical issues doesn't invalidate the entire list. You said there were NONE thwarted.
Please go away and come back when you have refuted every one of the ones on the list. Then I will give you some of the others that aren't publicized and see if you can dispute those too.

Oh, and while you are at it, please post exact examples of all these rights that have been taken away, that no other countries are doing as part of their regular daily anti-terrorism measures?

Care to play?

G26

PS - Sorry, I don't do the bible. I hate high button collars (t-shirts are much more comfortable)
I have been known to high five someone occasionally though. Fundamentalist? Learn that on CNN?
Loony? Absolutely! I live in SA!

 

[LazyLion]

The problem I have with this is that it doesn't seem to matter what atrocities were committed by the suspects and how they did it with no remorse, the rest of the world still expect that they be wrapped in cotton.

Ja, but I guess there has to be some kind of line drawn by "civilised countries" where they will at least try to treat all suspects with common decency and fairness. I would say that "extreme methods" should only be used on those suspects who have been clearly captured while performing terror acts for which the evidence is clear, documented and undeniable. Then they should be fair game for the extraction of information. But remember... this is a two-way street. The moment that the US starts treating their prisoners of war that way... they can expect that any US soldiers who are captured might face the same treatment. The old adage still rings true... in war as well... treat others as you would have them treat you.

 

[Slootvreter]

Ja, but I guess there has to be some kind of line drawn by "civilised countries" where they will at least try to treat all suspects with common decency and fairness. I would say that "extreme methods" should only be used on those suspects who have been clearly captured while performing terror acts for which the evidence is clear, documented and undeniable. Then they should be fair game for the extraction of information. But remember... this is a two-way street. The moment that the US starts treating their prisoners of war that way... they can expect that any US soldiers who are captured might face the same treatment. The old adage still rings true... in war as well... treat others as you would have them treat you.

How do they get treated?

 

[Albereth]

Have you got a brain? The plots that I listed, could hardly be called "thwarted" if the government admitted there was no imminent threat The perps got locked up because of changes brought about by the new anti-terror legislation which makes it easy to lock up anybody remotely suspected of commiting nefarious acts which probably includes talking about or even thinking of them.
The point is not so much about simple liberties taken away but the fact that the current administration, using 9/11 as an excuse, have trampled all over the US Constitution with an air of disdain.
Americans have gone a bit far with this "terrism" paranoia and for you to state that , in your words, "We all know you would much rather have them actually carried out..."I don't know which Royal "we" you are referring to, but you would not only be an idiot, to really think that, but you come across as a bible waving, button down collared, high fiving, fundamentalist loony.

Nobody has claimed that terrorists are the most brilliant minded people in the world but they do have the ability to learn. The plot to destroy the twin towers using the car bomb failed so the next lot used aircraft.

So maybe the blowtorch would be fairly useless against the cables on the bridges. But they may well learn how to access the cables and the next time they arrive with something that can bring the bridges down.

And the really cool thing about the Homeland Protection Act is that it applies in the USA. It doesn't impact me directly. Another 9/11 and the shutting down of the world's airlines - well that just may impact on me.

 

[The_Right_Honourable_Brit]

Ja, but I guess there has to be some kind of line drawn by "civilised countries" where they will at least try to treat all suspects with common decency and fairness. I would say that "extreme methods" should only be used on those suspects who have been clearly captured while performing terror acts for which the evidence is clear, documented and undeniable. Then they should be fair game for the extraction of information. But remember... this is a two-way street. The moment that the US starts treating their prisoners of war that way... they can expect that any US soldiers who are captured might face the same treatment. The old adage still rings true... in war as well... treat others as you would have them treat you.

Well the Muslim terrorist groups - especially Al Qaeda and the like - already proudly behead Westerners on camera and show it off to the world. You can't really get worse than that, can you? But I do agree with your point that the civilised countries like the US and UK musn't stoop down to the level of the terrorists otherwise it makes them as bad as the people they are trying to ridicule.