9/11 Debate: Watch as Popular Mechanics debunk LooseChange in person

[kilo39]

If there is a prevailing belief in the scientific community that the mechanics of the conspiracy theories are true, then its worth looking into the political aspects of it.

As LG says - it's more relevant to look at who pays the bills.

Scientific Poll: 84% Reject Official 9/11 Story
A monumental new scientific opinion poll has emerged which declares that only 16% of people in America now believe the official government explanation of the September 11th 2001 terror attacks.

According to the new New York Times/CBS News poll, only 16% of Americans think the government is telling the truth about 9/11 and the intelligence prior to the attacks:

"Do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?

I wonder which part of 16% the government sponsored scientists occupy?

 

[kilo39]

b) Name other structures with the same basic design as WTC1 or 2 (or 7, for that matter). Now name those that have been exposed to fire.

c) An insurance underwriter experienced in the field of WATER, not steel. Credible expert, huh?

SPANISH SKYSCRAPER FIRE RAISES
QUESTIONS ABOUT 9/11 COLLAPSES

By Christopher Bollyn
American Free Press

The fact that a Spanish skyscraper is still standing after an intense
fire consumed the steel and concrete tower for 24 hours provides real
world evidence that fire alone does not cause high-rise towers to
collapse.

As an intense fire consumed the 32-story Windsor Building in Madrid's
business district, the press reports all began with the words "fear
of collapse." After 24 hours, however, the tower, which was a similar
construction to the twin towers of the World Trade Center, remained
standing.
[source]

 

[kilo39]

I missed the bits that proved that

Money always leaves a trail.

Once again - do the people on this thread acually read the posts and give them any consideration - it seems not:

The declassified version of this finding tells the American people that our investigation developed ``information suggesting specific sources of foreign support for some of the September 11 hijackers while they were in the United States.''

Also - explain the share trades leading up to 911.

Not only did our military identify the Mohammed Atta cell; our military made a recommendation in September of 2000 to bring the FBI in to take out that cell, the cell of Mohammed Atta. So now, Mr. Speaker, for the first time I can tell our colleagues that one of our agencies not only identified the New York cell of Mohammed Atta and two of the terrorists, but actually made a recommendation to bring the FBI in to take out that cell

READ the posts!

 

[kilo39]

Why on earth would dark grey "dust" from WTC 1 or 2 be billowing extensively from the windows of WTC7? Are you sure you're looking at the right picture?

There is nothing "billowing extensively from the windows" - it is dust rising in the street from the collapse of WTC1,2.

Oh, so Dr Jones is now a chemist too? Quite multitalented, that man. Pity this "finding" does not seem to have been documented anywhere except in someone's blog. That certainly makes it credible

I can't comment on the qualifications of Dr Jones (though qualifications have been discussed somewhere on this thread?)

But - now all of a sudden 'my quoted blog' - is less than 'your quoted blog' - lauded by the debunkers on this thread.

Anyway - why do we bother - it is freely admitted on this thread - that the debunkers - don't watch the videos (pick one - there are recommendations) - or to any intent actually read the posts...

These dubunkers - won't/can't expend the bandwidth - but at the same time - expect us to do all the work - and make zero contribution - except pithy comments.

(and I note - you are not questioning the qualifications of the sources I quoted in terms of damaged steel.)

Further - this focus on experts - especially in regards the NIST faq I have posted numerous times - is as dubious a document as any... And since when - does nobody in the world have eyes, ears, a brain and some discernment in thought?

(but we just lap it up - it's the official story - and I am completely blind and deaf to any other - no matter what 'facts' or 'considerations' are posted)

 

[w1z4rd]

Some other interesting things about WTC7.. I watched a show by Alex Jones, called Martial Law.

The owner of WTC7 clearly says ON CAMERA that he gave the order to "pull" the building? This was caught on camera. Now its in debate? How can you argue against that after hearing that he gave the order to "pull" the building.

Now people think it burnt down? Hecitc.

Oh, and some other interesting bits of information.

- Brother Bush was in charge of the security until just before the attacks of the WTC`s
- The owner of WTC7 bought up most of the buildings in that area, and took out RECORD insurances... just before the attack.

After reading that article LGM posted in response to that stupid GOP video by Popular Mechanics... it brought some other interesting points up.

in the days preceding 9/11 someone had bought put options on shares likely to fall as a result of the use of American Airlines and United Airlines planes in the attacks (not just the shares of the airlines themselves but also of parent companies).

Now I see most of you are arguing about the pieces on the chessboard and about the players, but this is to be expected. However, for those of you who cant seem to get a clue its pretty simple.

How did weapon and oil stocks react after 9/11 until today? Now who controls those weapon and oil stocks? Who profited the most due to 9/11?

I can tell you now it wasnt Osama... though the rest of his family (who have very close relationships with the Bush's) may still be smiling.

 

[Claymore]

SPANISH SKYSCRAPER FIRE RAISES
QUESTIONS ABOUT 9/11 COLLAPSES

By Christopher Bollyn
American Free Press

The fact that a Spanish skyscraper is still standing after an intense
fire consumed the steel and concrete tower for 24 hours provides real
world evidence that fire alone does not cause high-rise towers to
collapse.

As an intense fire consumed the 32-story Windsor Building in Madrid's
business district, the press reports all began with the words "fear
of collapse." After 24 hours, however, the tower, which was a similar
construction to the twin towers of the World Trade Center, remained
standing.
[source]

I repeat the question: Name other structures with the same basic design as WTC1 or 2 (or 7, for that matter). Now name those that have been exposed to fire.

(The Windsor building, BTW, was concrete-cored and concrete framed, and had a very different design, with technical floors to provide strength).

There is nothing "billowing extensively from the windows" - it is dust rising in the street from the collapse of WTC1,2.

I dunno...are we on the same page here? This does not look like dust "rising in the street".

http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11images/fig3.jpg

 

[bwana]

Once again - do the people on this thread acually read the posts and give them any consideration - it seems not:

The declassified version of this finding tells the American people that our investigation developed ``information suggesting specific sources of foreign support for some of the September 11 hijackers while they were in the United States.''

Do you read the posts? Foreign - not CIA.

Also - explain the share trades leading up to 911.

Not only did our military identify the Mohammed Atta cell; our military made a recommendation in September of 2000 to bring the FBI in to take out that cell, the cell of Mohammed Atta. So now, Mr. Speaker, for the first time I can tell our colleagues that one of our agencies not only identified the New York cell of Mohammed Atta and two of the terrorists, but actually made a recommendation to bring the FBI in to take out that cell

READ the posts!

You mentioned shares? How does that tie into the recommendation that the FBI should get involved?

 

[icyrus]

The owner of WTC7 clearly says ON CAMERA that he gave the order to "pull" the building? This was caught on camera. Now its in debate? How can you argue against that after hearing that he gave the order to "pull" the building.

Quick point: I could be mistaken but I believe the quote was "pull it" and he was refering to the operations by the firefighters in the building. Its a popular quote to be used out of context.

 

[Claymore]

The owner of WTC7 clearly says ON CAMERA that he gave the order to "pull" the building? This was caught on camera. Now its in debate? How can you argue against that after hearing that he gave the order to "pull" the building.

Did he say "Pull the building"? Nope, he didn't. He didn't even use the same terminology the demolition people use.

Quote:
in the days preceding 9/11 someone had bought put options on shares likely to fall as a result of the use of American Airlines and United Airlines planes in the attacks (not just the shares of the airlines themselves but also of parent companies).

Correct. Of course, this may have had something to do with the airlines releasing their results just then, no?

 

[Claymore]

Oh, LoneGunman...nice page you have: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lone_Gunmen

I especially like the mention of your involvement in 9/11...

 

[morebroadband]

There seem to be so many questions unanswered it is difficult to no where to start, so I will lay some of the facts that have been delivered in the few videos & documents for debate.

1. The week-end before 911, the whole trade Center was shut down, with no power. This in affect meant there was no security.

2. Security had been running in 2 shifts, for 24 hours, but was pulled before 911.

3. Some blue chip companies were moved from there offices, before 911. Once they were out there was heavy construction noises (like jackhammer) coming from there very floors that had been emptied, but when an IT director who had been working overtime, due to no power, went to have a look the floors were empty. Yet he still heard the noises. You need to watch the video for this one.

4. Larry Silverstein took over the lease of the buildings 6 weeks before 911.
He insured the buildings for against terrorist acts for $3.5 Billion for each act.

5. The day 911 took place a lot of people in power were told not to travel by air.

6. Of the 19 Highjackers initially named by US government, 9 have been found to be alive.

7. There was approx. $1 Billion in gold bullion stored in WTC on the day. Only $200 million was recovered, and get this, it had already been loaded onto trucks, with escort cars, and was in the tunnel to Building number 5. It had been moved before the buildings collapsed!

8. Tower 1 & 2 both fell to earth in 10 sec. Numerous people have discussed how would have been impossible in a normal open fire fuelled mostly by jet fuel, of which most burnt off in the initial explosion/contact. The steel, if compromised, would have only buckled where there was fire ( even though some people say the fire did not get hot enough). Why then did the whole building suddenly buckle. Again you need to check the video, because a lot of points are addressed by the engineers and scientists.

There was evidence of thermite discovered. Thermite aids in melting steel at very high temp. The was also Sulphur found, which helps speed up the thermite process. None of these should have been there.

35 Soil samples were taken around the site, and found to be radioactive. The steel and rubble in the holes remained molten for up to 8 weeks after 911. What caused this?

9. Numerous explosions were felt in the basement of the building quite some time before the collapse, and there were systematic explosions just before the buildings collapsed. Just like a controlled demolition

10. In the days leading up to 911 various futures were traded in the companies who would be both negatively and positively affected by the events. Some of the volumes were 45 times higher than on any average day.

11. The Petagon attacks have raised some startling questions. No bodies were recovered. Not one piece of wreckage was found to prove beyond doubt that it was a commercial airliner.

12. The hole left by the plane, hitting the Petagon was only 16 ft in diameter, yet it travelled through 3 levels of building. No engines (which contain most steel) were found. The reason given was that the fire got so hot, and melted everything YET the windows either side of the 16ft hole were not even broken, let alone melted!

13. The video tapes from the petrol station opposite Petagon were seized by FBI, within minutes after the explosion, and have never been released. They had a perfect view of the plane. The same with video tapes from Sheraton hotel. Employees were warned not to talk about what was on the tapes.

14. The aircraft that crashed in Pensylvania had no recognizable parts. No Engines, No Black Boxes! the coroner found not one drop of blood, and not one body part.

15. 911 is the first time in USA domestic history that no black boxes have been found recovered from a plane accident, and there were 4 ?

I could go on, but these are a few reasons why I have gone to work to try and debunk the conspiracy theorists, yet I can not come up with any logical reason not to believe the public were lied to! There are so many holes in the official story told, that it is actually terrifying to think about.

PS all the above is out of my memory, as I did not take any notes, when reading docs or watching videos. If you doubt anything above I urge you to read or watch some the videos.

 

[Claymore]

Morebroadband, a lot of those are pure urban legend or myth.

Off the top of my head:
4: Only one of the two WTC1/2 buildings was insured. Noone ever expected both to be involved in a disaster.
6: Sounds like rubbish to me...
8: Steel, being a metal, is very heat conductive. As for the thermite...no-one found any evidence of thermite, except for Dr Jones. And suplhur is a component of gypsum, used for the stairway shielding and in other places.
10: American Airlines had just released (or were about to release) their annual results. Stock trading was high on other occasions in the past, for the same reason.
11: The bodies were identified. Large parts of wreckage were found - most notable being the landing gear.
12: The 16' hole was on the *inner* ring, and was made by the nose gear. The unbroken windows were made of reinforced glass, designed to resist explosions. The Pentagon is a seriously reinforced building, far stronger than the aluminium of an airliner.
14: Standard debris was found, the black box was found, and most of the bodies were identified.
15: Dunno about the WTC ones, but both the other black boxes were found, and the Flight 93 cockpit voice recorder transcripts have provided a lot of evidence.

 

[snoopy_inc]

http://www.wellinformed.co.za/forum/index.php?topic=192.0

You might find that a really interesting read.


Information on this topic has drawn alot of interest. Amazing how we are drawn to something that is not explained with evidence

 

[LoneGunman]

Claymore - you really should do more research than scanning posts to work out how to dismiss posters statements as quickly as possible..

so Item 1/2/3 you either agree with, or cant disprove..

4. (only one of the WTC buildings was insured..)
"In February of 2002 Silverstein Properties won $861 million from Industrial Risk Insurers to rebuild on the site of WTC 7. Silverstein Properties' estimated investment in WTC 7 was $386 million. So: This building's collapse resulted in a profit of about $500 million...
After the attack, Silverstein Properties commenced litigation against its insurers, claiming it was entitled to twice the insurance policies' value because, according to a spokesman for Mr. Silverstein, "the two hijacked airliners that struck the 110-story twin towers Sept. 11 were separate 'occurrences' for insurance purposes, entitling him to collect twice on $3.6 billion of policies." This was reported in the Bloomberg News less than one month after the attack. 10
In December 2004, a jury ruled in favor of the insurance holders' double claim. " http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/background/owners.html

6 (hijackers still alive) you say 'sounds like rubbish'..
gee, a casual google brings up the BBC report, detailing that at least 4 are still alive..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
(read through http://911review.org/Wiki/HijackersAliveAndWell.shtml

8. you write ' steel, being a metal, is very conductive..'
well you cant have your physics both ways - either its conductive, in which case it conducted the heat away from the fire and dispersed it (because its conductive after all) or else it stuck around and mysteriously heated up to a point beyond its scientific ability, to somehow 'weaken' the steel structure of the building (in which case it would have bent over and fallen - not conveniently suffered catastrophic collapse at hundreds of points at the same time, making it fall straight down. One building might do that, but three?
As for thermite - again, explain and give examples of any other building fire where molten steel was found BELOW building debris..

ie> if it was 'naturally' heated steel - it should have been found ABOVE the debris.. how did steel become superheated 100 floors below a fire, to the point where it burned for a month beneath rubble? Give just one example of this happening someplace else in architectural history?

10. (you say nothing strange re insider trading and 'put' options-
then explain away
"SUPPRESSED DETAILS OF CRIMINAL INSIDER TRADING LEAD DIRECTLY INTO THE CIA's HIGHEST RANKS
http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/10_09_01_krongard.html
and
"“Further details of the futures trades that netted such huge gains in the wake of the hijackings have been disclosed. To the embarrassment of investigators, it has also emerged that the firm used to buy many of the "put" options – where a trader, in effect, bets on a share price fall – on United Airlines stock was headed until 1998 by "Buzzy" Krongard, now executive director of the CIA.” http://web.archive.org/web/20040213074245/www.propagandamatrix.com/archiveprior_knowledge#trading


16. (you say the 12: The 16' hole was on the *inner* ring, and was made by the nose gear...")

Er no, firstly - the supposed hole on the outer wall, is still not wide enough to allow an entire plane to fold itself up and disappear inside. Also, if the hole is barely 16 feet wide on the exterior., its obviously not going to be any bigger INSIDE.. and
the nose gear is a very soft fibreglass cone - and simply not strong enough to plough through 3 meters of reinforced concrete. Sorry
Especially not if the wall area was specifically and RECENTLY reinforced to prevent exactly what supposedly happened. (Another 'coincidence')

I'd love to see 'reinforced glass' that can withstand a 400mile an hour 40 ton airplane wing, which then mysteriously a) doesnt break the glass, and b) then equally mysteriously either folds itself up to go into a 16 foot wide hole, or is somehow 'burned up' without leaving any substantial traces of itself.
Look at the pix: http://911review.org/Wget/investigate911.batcave.net/pentagon1.html as you can see, the airplane seemed to somehow go onside the building, while leaving no wings of the airplane, luggage, seat parts..

Wanna show me any other crash pictures of an airplane where so little debris is visible? (I guess this is just another 'coincidence' to add to the list of the official 'coincidence theorists' belief system - in order to swallow the official story of 911)

re your last points re the black boxes..how innocent does the Government behaviour sound when you read
9/11 "black box" cover-up at Ground Zero?
http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/extra/archives/001139.html

"9/11: Missing Black Boxes in World Trade Center Attacks Found by Firefighters, Analyzed by NTSB, Concealed by FBI "
http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff12202005.html

 

[Syndyre]

Can't watch all the videos etc. till I'm back home on ADSL but just have a look at Operation Northwoods, which was approved by the joint chiefs of staff and called for attacks against civilian targets to be staged and used as justification for the invasion of Cuba. And that at least is undeniable fact. Not hard to see the parallels.

 

[Highflyer_GP]

I'm starting to get tired of all this 9/11 stuff, I say let each man believe what he wants to. It seems as though nobody's opinions will be swayed, and at the end of the day it happened 5 years ago, we can't go back in time to change anything.

 

[Claymore]

so Item 1/2/3 you either agree with, or cant disprove..

Couldn't be bothered to read up on them...

4. (only one of the WTC buildings was insured..)
"In February of 2002 Silverstein Properties won $861 million from Industrial Risk Insurers to rebuild on the site of WTC 7. Silverstein Properties' estimated investment in WTC 7 was $386 million. So: This building's collapse resulted in a profit of about $500 million...
After the attack, Silverstein Properties commenced litigation against its insurers, claiming it was entitled to twice the insurance policies' value because, according to a spokesman for Mr. Silverstein, "the two hijacked airliners that struck the 110-story twin towers Sept. 11 were separate 'occurrences' for insurance purposes, entitling him to collect twice on $3.6 billion of policies." This was reported in the Bloomberg News less than one month after the attack. 10
In December 2004, a jury ruled in favor of the insurance holders' double claim. " http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/background/owners.html

So I was correct, then? Only by litigation did he get money for both towers.

6 (hijackers still alive) you say 'sounds like rubbish'..
gee, a casual google brings up the BBC report, detailing that at least 4 are still alive..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1559151.stm
(read through http://911review.org/Wiki/HijackersAliveAndWell.shtml

From less than two weeks after the events? How about some more recent confirmations, eh?

8. you write ' steel, being a metal, is very conductive..'
well you cant have your physics both ways - either its conductive, in which case it conducted the heat away from the fire and dispersed it (because its conductive after all) or else it stuck around and mysteriously heated up to a point beyond its scientific ability, to somehow 'weaken' the steel structure of the building (in which case it would have bent over and fallen - not conveniently suffered catastrophic collapse at hundreds of points at the same time, making it fall straight down. One building might do that, but three?

What makes you think that heat was "dispersed"? Bear in mind that below the impact areas, the steel columns were covered in insulation. And if you think steel doesn't weaken when heated, you need to do a little reading on the properties of metals. It's well known that wood trusses often handle fires better than steel trusses do, due to the weakening and sudden failure of steel.

As for thermite - again, explain and give examples of any other building fire where molten steel was found BELOW building debris..

Relevance to thermite? Also, how about proof of molten steel.

ie> if it was 'naturally' heated steel - it should have been found ABOVE the debris.. how did steel become superheated 100 floors below a fire, to the point where it burned for a month beneath rubble? Give just one example of this happening someplace else in architectural history?

And you're saying thermite did it? How long exactly does thermite keep burning? And why has *no-one* except Dr Jones found evidence of thermite?

16. (you say the 12: The 16' hole was on the *inner* ring, and was made by the nose gear...")

Er no, firstly - the supposed hole on the outer wall, is still not wide enough to allow an entire plane to fold itself up and disappear inside. Also, if the hole is barely 16 feet wide on the exterior., its obviously not going to be any bigger INSIDE.. and
the nose gear is a very soft fibreglass cone - and simply not strong enough to plough through 3 meters of reinforced concrete. Sorry
Especially not if the wall area was specifically and RECENTLY reinforced to prevent exactly what supposedly happened. (Another 'coincidence')

Try viewing pictures that actually show the entire outside hole, not just the upper portion of it. There are pics showing a massive gash there. And the 16' is the inner ring hole, not the outer.

For someone who has done so much research here, you're strangely ignorant of aircraft. "Nose gear" consist of the very strong landing gear (you know, the metal bits that have wheels on them) at the front of the plane; a "nose cone" is the soft front of the aircraft. There are pictures of the nose gear there.

I'd love to see 'reinforced glass' that can withstand a 400mile an hour 40 ton airplane wing, which then mysteriously a) doesnt break the glass, and b) then equally mysteriously either folds itself up to go into a 16 foot wide hole, or is somehow 'burned up' without leaving any substantial traces of itself.

Er...dunno if you noticed...those windows were not directly hit. Now take a look at the pictures you link to, and count the window rows from the top, bearing in mind that the Pentagon has five floors above ground. Yup, that makes those windows on the 4th level! And all the conspiracy nuts point to those pics and say "Look at the tiny hole on the outside!" without bothering to count the floors, or take into account the dip in the terrain before the building; they're looking at the hole on the *second* level, not the huge gash on the bottom level, which is obscured by the terrain and by smoke.

 

[Claymore]

I'm starting to get tired of all this 9/11 stuff, I say let each man believe what he wants to. It seems as though nobody's opinions will be swayed, and at the end of the day it happened 5 years ago, we can't go back in time to change anything.

Indeed. The political stuff is really up in the air; the physical evidence, though, is very well documented. Conspiracy theorists, however, without actually coming up with any theories of their own, are using misguided "evidence" from amateurs to suggest a great conspiracy, even when these bits of "evidence" are blatantly incorrect, make no sense, or disagree completely with each other.

 

[Nod]

Indeed. The political stuff is really up in the air; the physical evidence, though, is very well documented. Conspiracy theorists, however, without actually coming up with any theories of their own, are using misguided "evidence" from amateurs to suggest a great conspiracy, even when these bits of "evidence" are blatantly incorrect, make no sense, or disagree completely with each other.

Why was the steel sold of to Japan so soon after the collapse, before investigators could have a proper look at it? Would it not have made more sense to do a proper forensic investigation, get your results, verify it with independent investigators, and only then think of selling the evidence, especially considering the magnitude of the event?

 

[bwana]

Why was the steel sold of to Japan so soon after the collapse, before investigators could have a proper look at it? Would it not have made more sense to do a proper forensic investigation, get your results, verify it with independent investigators, and only then think of selling the evidence, especially considering the magnitude of the event?

Why on earth would you expect them to do that? Has any government ever been expected to verify results?