9/11 Debate: Watch as Popular Mechanics debunk LooseChange in person

Claymore

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icyrus - the building is 110 stories high - mostly steel construction... now I do have the figures here somewhere of exactly how much steel that is - but take my word - it is hundreds of thousands of pounds - verse 24000 pounds of aviation fuel. It is not physically possible for 24000 pds of fuel to significantly weaken hundreds of thousands of pounds of steel.

Firstly, only the core steel columns needed to be weakened. Secondly, it wasn't 24000lb of fuel, it was 24000 gallons (91 cubic metres). Thirdly, office contents are pretty inflammable too; the fuel was not the only thing burning.
 

Claymore

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No claymore - you are sidestepping the issue. Tell me about the shop dummy. And I am not repeating things over and over - if I am it is only because you refuse to acknowledge any of the EVIDENCE, ie, no modelling of the bottom third, molten metal not germane - woman mysteriously alive - when all should be in pain or DEAD. But no - its a shop dummy.

So what do *you* say happened? That there wasn't a fire? The NIST explanation seems quite credible to me.

Pilot episode "predicts" 9/11
In a foreshadowing of the September 11, 2001 attacks, subsequent conspiracy theories, and the 2003 invasion of Iraq, the plot of the March 4, 2001 pilot episode of the series depicts a secret U.S. government agency plotting to crash a Boeing 727 headed for Boston into the World Trade Center via remote control for the purpose of increasing the military defense budget and blaming the attack on foreign "tin-pot dictators" who are "begging to be smart-bombed." This episode aired in Australia less than two weeks before the 9/11 attacks, on August 30.

So? Were the producers interrogated?
 
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kilo39

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Firstly, only the core steel columns needed to be weakened. Secondly, it wasn't 24000lb of fuel, it was 24000 gallons (91 cubic metres). Thirdly, office contents are pretty inflammable too; the fuel was not the only thing burning.

Claymore - you really do seem to live in an alternate reality. Steel core weakened? Yeah right - for 110 stories - um, I don't think so. Read the NIST faq - carefully - when you get right down to it - they don't really tell you how it collapsed. It just sort of mysteriously vapourised - as it wasn't a pancake !!!! LOL Oh ya, typo - whichever - 24000 gallons of fuel will not weaken hundreds of thousands of TONS of steel. Oooh ya, office desks, files burning made the metal weak. !!!!!!!!!! Pleaze. LOL (and lets remember the building was designed for the impact of a 707 - 20% smaller than the 767 - probably with similar fuel load - but not so significantly different that it should cause concrete to pulverise to dust - and a top to bottom collapse of a 110 story building x 2.)

So what do *you* say happened? That there wasn't a fire? The NIST explanation seems quite credible to me.

If it is so credible explain how the woman is alive - as their own report says she shouldn't be.

And re: my comments NIST report above.

So? Were the producers interrogated?

Alternate reality? It is YOUR qoute (re: lonegunman episode) Oh I see - sarcasm?!

- and I would really not like to get into mind games:

I listened to him and I prayed to Allah to help him. Another person told me that last year he saw, but I didn't understand and I told him I don't understand. He said, “I saw people who left for jihad...and they found themselves in New York...in Washington and New York.” I said, “What is this?” He told me the plane hit the building. That was last year. We haven't thought much about it. But, when the incidents happened he came to me and said, “Did you see...this is strange.” I have another man...my god...he said and swore by Allah that his wife had seen the incident a week earlier. She saw the plane crashing into a building...that was unbelievable, my god.

UBL: The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn’t know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded the planes.

13 December 2001
TRANSCRIPT OF USAMA BIN LADEN VIDEO TAPE

They knew about it. They assisted it. And with all this - where is the jet at the pentagon? And nosewheel gear, an engine and something else that looks suspiciously like a nose cone - just don't cut it. And - where was NORAD and any action from USAF - as is standard operating procedure - for over an hour!!

And - as I've mentioned a dozen times - if they had nothing to hide - then why not release the video tape - and spare us the parking ticket machine videos.

Please.
 

Claymore

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Claymore - you really do seem to live in an alternate reality. Steel core weakened? Yeah right - for 110 stories - um, I don't think so.


It didn't need to fail all along the length, as I'm sure you could figure out if you played with a strip of metal. Damage the middle, and the entire thing is compromised. Strangely, that's what these reports say...

LOL Oh ya, typo - whichever - 24000 gallons of fuel will not weaken hundreds of thousands of TONS of steel. Oooh ya, office desks, files burning made the metal weak. !!!!!!!!!! Pleaze. LOL

Ever been in a building fire? *Everything* burns! Some things more than others - PCs, anything plastics, etc. And, as mentioned, only portion of the steel needed to be weakened.

(and lets remember the building was designed for the impact of a 707 - 20% smaller than the 767 - probably with similar fuel load - but not so significantly different that it should cause concrete to pulverise to dust - and a top to bottom collapse of a 110 story building x 2.)

I was waiting for you to mention that. Yes, there was a 707 in mind in the building specs. However, the 707 in mind was a plane coming in for landing (i.e. very little fuel), moving very slowly in poor weather conditions. By comparison, the WTC planes were larger aircraft, fully loaded, and rammed into the towers deliverately at 800 and 950kph. Big difference, *very* big difference.

If it is so credible explain how the woman is alive - as their own report says she shouldn't be.

As they say - must have been an area where no fire. If she was there, though, she was there; why not try to figure out why, instead of saying she couldn't have been?

They knew about it. They assisted it. And with all this - where is the jet at the pentagon? And nosewheel gear, an engine and something else that looks suspiciously like a nose cone - just don't cut it. And - where was NORAD and any action from USAF - as is standard operating procedure - for over an hour!!

The jet at the Pentagon was there, clearly visible, in lots of little fragments. Or do you think the firemen brought a 6-ton engine along with them to sneak into the rubble? And who was it who came along and broke a number of the light pole in the flight path at that time, if there wasn't an aircraft?

By the way, you asked earlier about Predator drone and cruise missile powerplants. No, neither use huge Roll-Royce turbofans; the Predator has a four-cylinder Rotax engine developing 101hp, and most US cruise missiles in the US seem to run the pretty tiny Williams International F107 or 112 cruise-turbofans with solid rocket boosters. The Predator has a top speed of under 200kph, and the Tomahawk cruise missile, at 880kph, is slower than an airliner; I'm sure people would have noticed them if they were the cause.

As for NORAD; any idea how busy US airlanes are? Now imagine civilian aircraft with their transponders switched off - damn near impossible to find and track. And as for aircraft - they were permitted only subsonic intercepts at that time, even if they could find the airliners. Bear in mind that the airliners at speed are pretty damn fast - they can run less than 100kph lower than supersonic. Imagine a subsonic jet trying to catch that...

And - as I've mentioned a dozen times - if they had nothing to hide - then why not release the video tape - and spare us the parking ticket machine videos.

I agree, that stuff should be released.
 

icyrus

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LOL Oh ya, typo - whichever - 24000 gallons of fuel will not weaken hundreds of thousands of TONS of steel. Oooh ya, office desks, files burning made the metal weak. !!!!!!!!!! Pleaze. LOL (and lets remember the building was designed for the impact of a 707 - 20% smaller than the 767 - probably with similar fuel load - but not so significantly different that it should cause concrete to pulverise to dust - and a top to bottom collapse of a 110 story building x 2.)

Thought this would be relevant (from wikipedia):

"The buildings had in fact been designed to withstand the impact of the largest airliner of the day, the Boeing 707-320, in the event one was lost in fog while looking to land. The modeled aircraft weighed 263,000 lb (119 metric tons) with a flight speed of 180 mph (290 km/h), as in approach and landing.[2] As energy increases with the square of speed, the 767s that hit the towers had a kinetic energy more than seven times greater than the modeled impact."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collapse_of_the_World_Trade_Center

About the "concrete dust", I suspect it wasn't all concrete. The buildings where more than just concrete and steal plus I would expect the energy from that much weight falling would be enough to turns large amounts of concrete into dust.
 

kilo39

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Claymore quotes:

It didn't need to fail all along the length, as I'm sure you could figure out if you played with a strip of metal. Damage the middle, and the entire thing is compromised. Strangely, that's what these reports say...

Um, no - that's now how it worked at all - the hits were in the upper sections - a failure - and any subsequent collapse should not have brought down the whole building - and certainly not in free-fall, ie, zero resistance.

Ever been in a building fire? *Everything* burns! Some things more than others - PCs, anything plastics, etc. And, as mentioned, only portion of the steel needed to be weakened.

Re: my comments above - and no - 110 stories - everything burning not - destruction in a localised area (leaving some alive) does not equal catastrophic failure over 110 floors - concrete pulverised - free-fall. (Um, show me some resistance please.)

I was waiting for you to mention that. Yes, there was a 707 in mind in the building specs. However, the 707 in mind was a plane coming in for landing (i.e. very little fuel), moving very slowly in poor weather conditions. By comparison, the WTC planes were larger aircraft, fully loaded, and rammed into the towers deliverately at 800 and 950kph. Big difference, *very* big difference.

Mmmm - so now we're discussing issues of landing and takeoff speeds - my goodness. 800, 950kph? I think not - maybe at altitude trimmed these airliners would reach those speeds - but in a low altitude fully laden state as you argue - not. Also I would think advances in safety features in terms of anti-fire technology on the jet would more than make up for increased fuel load - not necessarily kinetic energy - but these jets were not moving at the speeds you propose.

As they say - must have been an area where no fire. If she was there, though, she was there; why not try to figure out why, instead of saying she couldn't have been?

Not IF (so now the photo is lying?) Why? Because the fires weren't as extreme as described in the nist report - this substantiated by the fire brigades voice recordings - they were on the impact floor.

The jet at the Pentagon was there, clearly visible, in lots of little fragments. Or do you think the firemen brought a 6-ton engine along with them to sneak into the rubble? And who was it who came along and broke a number of the light pole in the flight path at that time, if there wasn't an aircraft?

Ag please - where are the fragments? Counted on the fingers of one hand? Show me a tail section - or more than one engine - and lets remember how big these engines are (on a widebody) - from what I remember of the photo this engine - or bits that size were nowhere near this - and tailfins and engines are usually the most indestructible parts of the jet - where are they? Where is the 6 ton engine? I think not - and this is exactly the problem. Without looking too far here are photos of the engine bits - look like 6 tons to you? Um no - looks quite predator size to me - and if you look at the photo - you can clearly see the scale. [source]

edit// ah - now that I look closer at this url I see it is actually a debunkers site - seems debunkers sites are on the ascendancy (on this issue anyway) - and in reference to this - let's be realistic - those scales do not seem to fit a 757. And on the subject of debunker sites - here is another: 9-11 Loose Change Second Edition Viewer Guide - 5 pictures down the page - the purported skid marks... now compare this to the satellite photo of the same day: http://www.spaceimaging.com/gallery/9-11/default.htm# - pentagon set - 2nd image - show me the skid mark... and looking at the debunker skid mark - that looks like a 'doctored' image if ever there was one. Whoaa - debunkers sites masquerading as conspiracists sites - what is the world coming to?

and the Tomahawk cruise missile, at 880kph, is slower than an airliner; I'm sure people would have noticed them if they were the cause.

Ooh ya - the (government) witness's you previously mentioned.

As for NORAD; any idea how busy US airlanes are? Now imagine civilian aircraft with their transponders switched off - damn near impossible to find and track. And as for aircraft - they were permitted only subsonic intercepts at that time, even if they could find the airliners. Bear in mind that the airliners at speed are pretty damn fast - they can run less than 100kph lower than supersonic. Imagine a subsonic jet trying to catch that...

The official policy of NORAD and the FAA is to scramble fighter jets the moment any airplane veers off its flight path by even a minor degree. The scrambling of the jets requires absolutely no input from the President or anybody else. It is an automatic, routine, and well-practiced exercise that was carried out on 67 occasions between September 2000 and June 2001. One of these occasions was even covered in Sports Illustrated because it involved the private jet of pro-golfer Payne Stewart. The contrast between the events surrounding the Stewart incident and the events of 9/11 are illuminating. When Payne’s small, private jet deviated only slightly from its flight plan, the FAA/NORAD acted as follows:
1. Scrambled fighters immediately;
2. Once scrambled, the fighters proceeded to Payne’s jet at full speed.
In contrast, when four large passenger jets were simultaneously hijacked and taken radically off their flight plans on 9/11, the FAA/NORAD acted as follows:
1. Waited 75 minutes to scramble aircraft;
2. Once scrambled, the fighters proceeded at one quarter of their top speed


I agree, that stuff should be released.

Okay - now ask yourself the most simple question - considering the conspiracists are baying at the door (and only 16% of americans now agree) - WHY DON'T THEY?
 
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Claymore

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Um, no - that's now how it worked at all - the hits were in the upper sections - a failure - and any subsequent collapse should not have brought down the whole building - and certainly not in free-fall, ie, zero resistance.

Really? I didn't realise you were a structural engineer? Or is that how you think it *should* work because you watched some video clips? What happens when the spine of the building, tensioned vertically (compression), fails anywhere on its length? Yup, the whole thing fails catastophically.

Mmmm - so now we're discussing issues of landing and takeoff speeds - my goodness. 800, 950kph? I think not - maybe at altitude trimmed these airliners would reach those speeds - but in a low altitude fully laden state as you argue - not. Also I would think advances in safety features in terms of anti-fire technology on the jet would more than make up for increased fuel load - not necessarily kinetic energy - but these jets were not moving at the speeds you propose.

800 and 950kph are the officially quoted speeds. If you have different numbers, please produce proof.

And no, "anti-fire"" technology on the airliners would make basically no difference at all in such an impact. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.

Ag please - where are the fragments? Counted on the fingers of one hand? Show me a tail section - or more than one engine - and lets remember how big these engines are (on a widebody) - from what I remember of the photo this engine - or bits that size were nowhere near this - and tailfins and engines are usually the most indestructible parts of the jet - where are they? Where is the 6 ton engine? I think not - and this is exactly the problem. Without looking too far here are photos of the engine bits - look like 6 tons to you? Um no - looks quite predator size to me - and if you look at the photo - you can clearly see the scale. [source]

The pictures are easily findable anywhere - you can get pics of debris all over the damn place. Have you seen video clips of aircraft going into concrete blocks? It's not pretty - the aircraft basically disappear.

Since when does a four-cylinder piston engined Predator engine (i.e. about the same size and config of a typical 2.0 litrer car engine) look like a great big Roll-Royce turbofan? Are you saying this in order to make the conspiracy theorists look like idiots, or do you actually believe it? Or do you think someone went to the effort of making a scale model of a turbofan, figuring that scale wouldn't be apparent in pictures?

Ooh ya - the (government) witness's you previously mentioned.

Civilian witnesses, you mean - hundreds of them, many of whom made public statements, identifying the type of aircraft and its markings; but then, maybe someone dressed up a Predator in American Airlines colours, managed to get it going 4 times its maximum speed, and somehow managed to get it, though weighing less than my car, through reinforced concrete walls, while carrying a whole bunch of 757 parts to provide suitable debris. That definitely sounds believable. Oh yeah, then the government tracked down all witnesses within minutes, and persuaded them to say it was a Boeing.

You know, I think you should lay off the Pentagon crash; it's not good for your credibility.

The official policy of NORAD and the FAA is to scramble fighter jets the moment any airplane veers off its flight path by even a minor degree. The scrambling of the jets requires absolutely no input from the President or anybody else. It is an automatic, routine, and well-practiced exercise that was carried out on 67 occasions between September 2000 and June 2001. One of these occasions was even covered in Sports Illustrated because it involved the private jet of pro-golfer Payne Stewart. The contrast between the events surrounding the Stewart incident and the events of 9/11 are illuminating. When Payne’s small, private jet deviated only slightly from its flight plan, the FAA/NORAD acted as follows:


As I'm sure you know, Payne's jet has been the only aircraft intercepted in recent years - and it was on autopilot, in areas without masses of other aircraft, with transponder working, and it still took well over an hour for F-16s to get to it.
 
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kilo39

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800 and 950kph are the top speeds of the jets - at altitude - they can't be doing this speed at low altitude - it is physically impossible. Pentagon maybe (after a dive) - but WTC - not.

And no, "anti-fire"" technology on the airliners would make basically no difference at all in such an impact. Anyone who thinks otherwise is naive.

Isn't it amazing how you bandy these terms around - but at the same time refuse to acknowledge anybody else's points - for instance the live woman in the impact hole - or the smoke/fires at WTC7 - or the safety properties in modern jet fuels or modern airliners (as posted previously.)

The pictures are easily findable anywhere - you can get pics of debris all over the damn place. Have you seen video clips of aircraft going into concrete blocks? It's not pretty - the aircraft basically disappear.

And here you are again - ignoring any previous posts: show me the skid marks on the satellite photo - show me the tailplane - show me pictures of the engine where the apparent size does not seem a blatant lie.

Civilian witnesses, you mean - hundreds of them, many of whom made public statements, identifying the type of aircraft and its markings; but then, maybe someone dressed up a Predator in American Airlines colours, managed to get it going 4 times its maximum speed, and somehow managed to get it, though weighing less than my car, through reinforced concrete walls, while carrying a whole bunch of 757 parts to provide suitable debris. That definitely sounds believable. Oh yeah, then the government tracked down all witnesses within minutes, and persuaded them to say it was a Boeing.

Well - amazing how they managed to track down all video within an hour. Suitable debris - where? I am using the predator as an example - who will ever know - because they won't release the video tape. Tell me one good reason, why?

You know, I think you should lay off the Pentagon crash; it's not good for your credibility.

I at least have posted sources - all you have done is more hysterical debunking - with zero consideration of evidence - or lack of it before your eyes.

As I'm sure you know, Payne's jet has been the only aircraft intercepted in recent years - and it was on autopilot, in areas without masses of other aircraft, with transponder working, and it still took well over an hour for F-16s to get to it.

Ooh ya - I post source material - where is yours? And why should I post false public claims - easily verifiable?

Try backing up some of your diatribe - for a change.

Really? I didn't realise you were a structural engineer? Or is that how you think it *should* work because you watched some video clips? What happens when the spine of the building, tensioned vertically (compression), fails anywhere on its length? Yup, the whole thing fails catastophically.

Ooh, the great debunker. The height of civil engineering - a smoking hole - ja - it failed catastrophically - exactly as I thought - PLEAZE.
 
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Claymore

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800 and 950kph are the top speeds of the jets - at altitude - they can't be doing this speed at low altitude - it is physically impossible. Pentagon maybe (after a dive) - but WTC - not.

Firstly, provide proof of those being top speeds (I stated they were impact speeds). Second, as it happens, both aircraft were in dives, having descended from 29000'.

Isn't it amazing how you bandy these terms around - but at the same time refuse to acknowledge anybody else's points - for instance the live woman in the impact hole - or the smoke/fires at WTC7 - or the safety properties in modern jet fuels or modern airliners (as posted previously.)

You stated that modern jet fuels had "anti-fire" properties. That's incorrect - they need to be inflammable in order to work. In fact, they have *reduced volatility*, which does help reducing easy ignition of fumes. Reduced volatility is of little help in such an incident. Modern airliners do have safety features, which could well help in certain types of accidents...but not high-speed collisions with buildings in fueled-up aircraft.

As for the live woman: give some context. When was that taken? What did the surrounding areas look like at the time?

And here you are again - ignoring any previous posts: show me the skid marks on the satellite photo - show me the tailplane - show me pictures of the engine where the apparent size does not seem a blatant lie.

The engine size seems fine to me. As for the tailplane: it often does survive accidents better. But then, why would it survive *this* incident? As it happens, witnesses have stated seeing parts of the tailplane, still emblazoned with American Airlines logos. And skid marks...why would there be skid marks, considering the plane didn't hit the ground first? (It did clip a car aerial and a generator truck on the way in though).

I at least have posted sources - all you have done is more hysterical debunking - with zero consideration of evidence - or lack of it before your eyes.

Sources? What sources? Gimme a source showing evidence of a Predator, or a cruise missile, or anything other than a 757. And while you're at it, explain where the 757 and its passengers disappeared to.

Ooh ya - I post source material - where is yours? And why should I post false public claims - easily verifiable?

Source material for that? Where? Please provide sources stating the number of successful intercepts of civilian aircraft over North America.

Here's my source: http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11.html

Ooh, the great debunker. The height of civil engineering - a smoking hole - ja - it failed catastrophically - exactly as I thought - PLEAZE.

Thanks for agreeing on that one.

Now, I'm still waiting for an actual theory of what you think happened on 9/11. So far I can glean that you do not believe a 757 hit the Pentagon, and that the aircraft impacts and resulting fires did not bring down the towers, and that fires and damage from the towers did not bring down WTC.

What do you think *really* happened, in detail?
 

Claymore

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I found a nice opinion piece that makes clear how daft some of the conspiracy theories are, and addresses my point about the conspiracy theorists actually coming up with a theory.

Part 1
(Edited for nanny filter)

I, Left Gatekeeper

Why the "9/11 Truth" movement makes the "Left Behind" sci-fi series read like Shakespeare
Matt Taibbi

A few weeks ago I wrote a column on the anniversary of 9/11 that offhandedly dismissed 9/11 conspiracy theorists as "clinically insane." I expected a little bit of heat in response, but nothing could have prepared me for the deluge of f-you mail that I actually got.

Apparently every third person in the United States thinks George Bush was behind the 9/11 attacks.

"You're just another MSM-whore left gatekeeper paid off by corporate America," said one writer. "What you do isn't journalism at all, you dck," said another.

"You're the one who's clinically insane," barked a third, before educating me on the supposed anomalies of physics involved with the collapse of WTC-7.
I have two basic gripes with the 9/11 Truth movement. The first is that it gives supporters of Bush an excuse to dismiss critics of this administration. I have no doubt that every time one of those Loose Change dckwads opens his mouth, a Republican somewhere picks up five votes. In fact, if there were any conspiracy here, I'd be far more inclined to believe that this whole movement was cooked up by Karl Rove as a kind of mass cyber-provocation, along the lines of Gordon Liddy hiring hippie peace protesters to piss in the lobbies of hotels where campaign reporters were staying.

Secondly, it's bad enough that people in this country think Tim LaHaye is a prophet and Sean Hannity is an objective newsman. But if large numbers of people in this country can swallow 9/11 conspiracy theory without puking, all hope is lost. Our best hope is that the Japanese take pity on us and allow us to serve as industrial slaves in their future empire, farming sushi rice and assembling robot toys.

I don't have the space here to address every single reason why 9/11 conspiracy theory is so shamefully stupid, so I'll have to be content with just one point: 9/11 Truth is the lowest form of conspiracy theory, because it doesn't offer an affirmative theory of the crime.

Forget for a minute all those Internet tales about inexplicable skyscraper fires, strange holes in the ground at Shanksville and mysterious flight manifestoes. What is the theory of the crime, according to the 9/11 Truth movement? Strikingly, there is no obvious answer to that question, since for all the many articles about "Able Danger" and the witnesses who heard explosions at Ground Zero, there is not -- at least not that I could find -- a single document anywhere that lays out a single, concrete theory of what happened, who ordered what and when they ordered it, and why.

There obviously is such a theory, but it has to be pieced together by implication, by paying attention to the various assertions of 9/11 lore (the towers were mined, the Pentagon was really hit by a cruise missile, etc.) and then assembling them later on into one single story. But the funny thing is, when you put together all of those disparate theories, you get the dumbest story since Roman Polanski's Pirates.

The specifics vary, but the basic gist of what They Say Happened goes something like this:

A group of power-hungry neocons, led by Dck Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Bush and others and organizationally represented by groups like the Project for the New American Century, seeks to bring about a "Pearl-Harbor-like event" that would accelerate a rightist revolution, laying the political foundation for invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Your basic Reichstag fire scenario, logical enough so far. Except in this story, the Reichstag fire is an immensely complicated media hoax; the conspirators plot to topple the World Trade Center and pin a series of hijackings on a group of Sunni extremists with alleged ties to Al Qaeda. How do they topple the Trade Center? Well, they make use of NORAD's expertise in flying remote-control aircraft and actually fly two such remote-control aircraft into the Towers (in another version of the story, they conspire with Al Qaeda terrorists to actually hijack the planes), then pass the planes off as commercial jetliners in the media. But it isn't the plane crashes that topple the buildings, but bombs planted in the Towers that do the trick.

For good measure -- apparently to lend credence to the hijacking story -- they then fake another hijacking/crash in the Pentagon, where there actually is no plane crash at all but instead a hole created by a cruise missile attack, fired by a mysterious "white jet" that after the attack circles the White House for some time, inspiring the attention of Secret Service agents who point at it curiously from the ground (apparently these White House Secret Service agents were not in on the plot, although FBI agents on scene at Ground Zero and in Shanksville and elsewhere were).

Lastly, again apparently to lend weight to the whole hijacking cover story, they burn a big hole in the ground in Pennsylvania and claim that a jet went down there, crashed by a bunch of brave fictional civilians who fictionally storm the fictional plane cabin. The real-life wife of one of the fictional heroes, Lisa Beamer, then writes a convincingly self-serving paean/memoir to her dead husband, again lending tremendous verisimilitude to the hijacking story. These guys are good!
 

Claymore

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Part 2
(Edited for nanny filter)

Just imagine how this planning session between Bush, Rummy and Cheney must have gone:

BUSH: So, what's the plan again?

CHENEY: Well, we need to invade Iraq and Afghanistan. So what we've decided to do is crash a whole bunch of remote-controlled planes into Wall Street and the Pentagon, say they're real hijacked commercial planes, and blame it on the towelheads; then we'll just blow up the buildings ourselves to make sure they actually fall down.

RUMSFELD: Right! And we'll make sure that some of the hijackers are agents of Saddam Hussein! That way we'll have no problem getting the public to buy the invasion.

CHENEY: No, Dck, we won't.

RUMSFELD: We won't?

CHENEY: No, that's too obvious. We'll make the hijackers Al Qaeda and then just imply a connection to Iraq.

RUMSFELD: But if we're just making up the whole thing, why not just put Saddam's fingerprints on the attack?

CHENEY: (sighing) It just has to be this way, Dck. Ups the ante, as it were. This way, we're not insulated if things go wrong in Iraq. Gives us incentive to get the invasion right the first time around.

BUSH: I'm a total idiot who can barely read, so I'll buy that. But I've got a question. Why do we need to crash planes into the Towers at all? Since everyone knows terrorists already tried to blow up that building complex from the ground up once, why don't we just blow it up like we plan to anyway, and blame the bombs on the terrorists?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, you don't understand. It's much better to sneak into the buildings ourselves in the days before the attacks, plant the bombs and then make it look like it was exploding planes that brought the buildings down. That way, we involve more people in the plot, stand a much greater chance of being exposed and needlessly complicate everything!

CHENEY: Of course, just toppling the Twin Towers will never be enough. No one would give us the war mandate we need if we just blow up the Towers. Clearly, we also need to shoot a missile at a small corner of the Pentagon to create a mightily underpublicized additional symbol of international terrorism -- and then, obviously, we need to fake a plane crash in the middle of fscking nowhere in rural Pennsylvania.

RUMSFELD: Yeah, it goes without saying that the level of public outrage will not be sufficient without that crash in the middle of fscking nowhere.

CHENEY: And the Pentagon crash -- we'll have to do it in broad daylight and say it was a plane, even though it'll really be a cruise missile.
BUSH: Wait, why do we have to use a missile?

CHENEY: Because it's much easier to shoot a missile and say it was a plane. It's not easy to steer a real passenger plane into the Pentagon. Planes are hard to come by.

BUSH: But aren't we using two planes for the Twin Towers?

CHENEY: Mr. President, you're missing the point. With the Pentagon, we use a missile, and say it was a plane.

BUSH: Right, but I'm saying, why don't we just use a plane and say it was a plane? We'll be doing that with the Twin Towers, right?

CHENEY: Right, but in this case, we use a missile. (Throws hands up in frustration) Don, can you help me out here?

RUMSFELD: Mr. President, in Washington, we use a missile because it's sneakier that way. Using an actual plane would be too obvious, even though we'll be doing just that in New York.

BUSH: Oh, OK.

RUMSFELD: The other good thing about saying that it was a passenger jet is that that way, we have to invent a few hundred fictional victims and account for a nonexistent missing crew and plane. It's always better when you leave more cover story to invent, more legwork to do and more possible holes to investigate. Doubt, legwork and possible exposure -- you can't pull off any good conspiracy without them.

BUSH: You guys are brilliant! Because if there's one thing about Americans -- they won't let a president go to war without a damn good reason. How could we ever get the media, the corporate world and our military to endorse an invasion of a secular Iraqi state unless we faked an attack against New York at the hands of a bunch of Saudi religious radicals? Why, they'd never buy it. Look at how hard it was to get us into Vietnam, Iraq the last time, Kosovo?

CHENEY: Like pulling teeth!

RUMSFELD: Well, I'm sold on the idea. Let's call the Joint Chiefs, the FAA, the New York and Washington, D.C., fire departments, Rudy Giuliani, all three networks, the families of a thousand fictional airline victims, MI5, the FBI, FEMA, the NYPD, Larry Eagleburger, Osama bin Laden, Noam Chomsky and the fifty thousand other people we'll need to pull this off. There isn't a moment to lose!

BUSH: Don't forget to call all of those Wall Street hotshots who donated $100 million to our last campaign. They'll be thrilled to know that we'll be targeting them for execution as part of our thousand-tentacled modern-day bonehead Reichstag scheme! After all, if we're going to make martyrs -- why not make them out of our campaign paymasters?
****, didn't the Merrill Lynch guys say they needed a refurbishing in their New York offices?

RUMSFELD: Oh, they'll get a refurbishing, all right. Just in time for the "Big Wedding"!

ALL THREE: (cackling) Mwah-hah-hah!

You get the idea. None of this stuff makes any sense at all. If you just need an excuse to assume authoritarian powers, why fake a plane crash in Shanksville? What the hell does that accomplish? If you're using bombs, why fake a hijacking, why use remote-control planes? If the entire government apparatus is in on the scam, then why bother going to all this murderous trouble at all -- only to go to war a year later with a country no one even bothered to falsely blame for the attacks? You won't see any of this explored in 9/11 Truth lore, because the "conspiracy" they're describing is impossible everywhere outside a Zucker brothers movie -- unbelievably stupid in its conception, pointlessly baroque and excessive in its particulars, but flawless in its execution, with no concrete evidence left behind and tens of thousands keeping their roles a secret forever.

We are to imagine that not one of Bush's zillions of murderous confederates would slip and leave real incriminating evidence anywhere along the way, forcing us to deduce this massive crime via things like the shaking of a documentary filmmaker's tripod before the Towers' collapse (aha, see that shaking -- it must have been a bomb planted by the president and his ten thousand allies!). Richard Nixon was a hundred times smarter than Bush, and he couldn't prevent leaks and cries of anguished pseudo-conscience from sprouting among a dozen intimately involved conspirators -- but under the 9/11 conspiracy theory, even the lowest FBI agent used to seal off the crime scene never squeaks. It's absurd.

I challenge a 9/11 Truth leader like Loose Change writer Dylan Avery to come up with a detailed, complete summary of the alleged plot -- not the bits and pieces, but the whole story, put together -- that would not make any fifth grader anywhere burst out in convulsive laughter. And without that, all the rest of it is bosh and bunkum, on the order of the "sonar evidence" proving the existence of the Loch Ness monster. If you can't put all of these alleged scientific impossibilities together into a story that makes sense, then all you're doing is jerking off -- and it's not like no one's ever done that on the Internet before.

Whenever anyone chooses to dismiss 9/11 conspiracy theorists, accusations fly; the Internet screams that you've aided and abetted George Bush. I disagree. To me, the 9/11 Truth movement is, itself, a classic example of the pathology of George Bush's America. Bush has presided over a country that has become hopelessly divided into insoluble, paranoid tribes, one of which happens to be Bush's own government. All of these tribes have things in common; they're insular movements that construct their own reality by cherry-picking the evidence they like from the vast information marketplace, violently disbelieve in the humanity of those outside their ranks, and lavishly praise their own movement mediocrities as great thinkers and achievers. There are as many Thomas Paines in the 9/11 Truth movement as there are Isaac Newtons among the Intelligent Design crowd.

There's not a whole lot of difference, psychologically, between Sean Hannity's followers believing liberals to be the same as terrorists, and 9/11 Truthers believing even the lowest soldier or rank-and-file FAA or NORAD official to be a cold-blooded mass murderer. In both cases you have to be far gone enough into your private world of silly tribal bullsh1t that the concept of "your fellow citizen" has ceased to have any meaning whatsoever. It may be that America has become too big and complicated for most people to deal with being part of. People are longing for a smaller, stupider reality. Some, like Bush, sell a prepackaged version. Others just make theirs up out of thin air. God help us.
 

kilo39

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What balls Claymore - you have the audacity to post that double post here - why not simply provide the link (you took it off) - or are you too 'frightened' what will be found at that link (towards your point of view.) I request that you remove that bandwidth hog - post a summary with links - and save us all some time. Also - is this the best you can do? Where are any material facts in that article for instance "a raging inferno over multi-floors," etc. Now - you post some brain dead debunker article - but it is a thumbsuck - accusing the conspiracists of living in a alternate reality - but providing no germane facts as to why it is bullsh#t. I have shown multi-times on this thread that the the NIST faq is "not worth the paper it is written on" - but here you have the fear/balls/cheek - to post that garbage while supposedly debunking my FACTS from the NIST report (the governments OWN voice.)

I would think you found the article here (and I read this article weeks ago) - and here is the home page for those who would like to know. So I ask you - why did you see fit to post the whole article - waste everyones bandwidth - and post no link? FOR WHAT REASON? (and I suggest you look into your soul.)

Here for those that are interested (and the article above is a mirror) - are the comments made regarding the article - from the original: Rolling Stone

And - once again - we have some dweeb debunker article - and the trolls on this thread immediately start baying 'hooray' - catch a wakeup and look at the world around you - and truly try give it some thought.

Here (quickly) are some germane questions/points/observations:

Who blew 9/11?
It's high time to follow up on the startling discoveries of the Senate and House's joint inquiry, back in December 2002, on pre-9/11 intelligence. In reconstructing the hijackers' trail, the inquiry's staff discovered that the FBI had failed to report, and had later balked at making public, information showing that it knew that a bureau informant in the San Diego Muslim community had socialized with two of the hijackers, and that another man who had been investigated by the FBI had rented an apartment to one of them. Both of the future hijackers had been closely followed by the CIA as they made their way from the Middle East to Malaysia; the agents lost track of the men before they boarded a plane to California, where they then lived openly, with driver's licenses and a phone book listing in their own names. So far, no one has been able to discover how they escaped detection by the FBI -- and why the bureau refused to let Congress find out what happened.
 
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bwana

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I found a nice opinion piece that makes clear how daft some of the conspiracy theories are, and addresses my point about the conspiracy theorists actually coming up with a theory.

Part 1
(Edited for nanny filter)
Interesting posts Claymore.

For future ref though would you care to share the url?
 

kilo39

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Here is my earlier rebuke (unposted) in response 2 claymore's earlier post - before the bandwidth hit of a double post with no urls:

Firstly, provide proof of those being top speeds (I stated they were impact speeds). Second, as it happens, both aircraft were in dives, having descended from 29000'.

I watched the 2nd jet go into the tower - there is no way - it had dived from 29000 feet (info on this should be out there - why don't you look for a link for a change) - it did a slow, practically lumbering turn - probably more like 230 knots -.

And no - the pentagon jet flight path was from altitude - not WTC either jet.

Cruising speed: 540 mph (868 km/h) 530 knots (982 km/h) - this would be at optimum altitude. As I probably don't have to elucidate - these speeds are not possible at low altitude. [source]

You stated that modern jet fuels had "anti-fire" properties. That's incorrect - they need to be inflammable in order to work. In fact, they have *reduced volatility*, which does help reducing easy ignition of fumes. Reduced volatility is of little help in such an incident. Modern airliners do have safety features, which could well help in certain types of accidents...but not high-speed collisions with buildings in fueled-up aircraft.

Claymore - I am sure (I certainly hope -though your record on this thread says otherwise) - that you have seen video on this. What do you see? What does the fire department record say? The video shows major combustion outside the building (on impact) - the firefighter reports - state - no fire on the impact floor - or a 2 hose or however it was described, ie, it was easily manageable - which would stand to reason with a fire retardant interior on the jet - and numerous (I'm sucking) safety features built into fuel tanks, fuel systems and the like - exactly to stop fire - in any event. When last did you see a racing car explode on impact with the barrier at 320k? A long, long, time ago... commercial jets don't extend to self-sealing tanks and the rest - but fire retardant features are numerous... so what are we left with? Ooh, computers, files and the lunch sandwiches - (do I even need to tut?)

As for the live woman: give some context. When was that taken? What did the surrounding areas look like at the time?

Please - let's not fence: when was that taken? You're kidding right? It was taken within the hour of the buildings collapse - so where are the raging infernos over multi-floors as described in the nist report - um, can't be seen - um perhaps the woman is a shop dummy... um no - it is a relatively close in shot - but do you see smoke - do you see a raging inferno? Um no - the fire was out - or manageable. I don't even want to look at the nist report - again! - why don't you verify if for a change - the report states - anybody on or near the impact floor - should either be in too much pain to move (from the flash fire) - or dead. There were no interminable fires - that weakened the structure.

Here is the nist report (faq) - directly and verbatim - they never actually tell you what happened - why millions(?) of tons of concrete - and 110 stories of steel mysteriously vaporised - here it is:

Based on this comprehensive investigation, NIST concluded that the WTC towers collapsed because: (1) the impact of the planes severed and damaged support columns, dislodged fireproofing insulation coating the steel floor trusses and steel columns, and widely dispersed jet fuel over multiple floors; and (2) the subsequent unusually large jet-fuel ignited multi-floor fires (which reached temperatures as high as 1,000 degrees Celsius) significantly weakened the floors and columns with dislodged fireproofing to the point where floors sagged and pulled inward on the perimeter columns. This led to the inward bowing of the perimeter columns and failure of the south face of WTC 1 and the east face of WTC 2, initiating the collapse of each of the towers. Both photographic and video evidence—as well as accounts from the New York Police Department aviation unit during a half-hour period prior to collapse—support this sequence for each tower.

NIST’s findings do not support the “pancake theory” of collapse, which is premised on a progressive failure of the floor systems in the WTC towers (the composite floor system—that connected the core columns and the perimeter columns—consisted of a grid of steel “trusses” integrated with a concrete slab; see diagram below). Instead, the NIST investigation showed conclusively that the failure of the inwardly bowed perimeter columns initiated collapse and that the occurrence of this inward bowing required the sagging floors to remain connected to the columns and pull the columns inwards. Thus, the floors did not fail progressively to cause a pancaking phenomenon.


-> the bit in bold is all they've got to say. (here is the NIST faq original)

Oh - isn't that all very neat and tidy - like we are not talking the release of massive forces - no - these massive forces fall straight down into a neat pile - it wasn't a pancake - no - this tremendous energy was somehow mysteriously released - to cause a free-fall... no resistance or conservation of momentum - and it wasn't a pancake - now tell me - what causes a massive unleashing of energy - 12 stories collapsing above? Maybe. 24000 thousand gallons of fuel - not. Okay - so 12 stories collapsing above - but it all fell down in a neat straight line - in 11 seconds. Into its own footprint - dang - not even humpty dumpty did it so neat.

The engine size seems fine to me. As for the tailplane: it often does survive accidents better. But then, why would it survive *this* incident? As it happens, witnesses have stated seeing parts of the tailplane, still emblazoned with American Airlines logos. And skid marks...why would there be skid marks, considering the plane didn't hit the ground first? (It did clip a car aerial and a generator truck on the way in though).

The tailplane would survive this accident because - we have a nice soft jet impacting a reinforced building - oh it disappeared inside - oh, it fell off and got consumed in the fire - does this really not sound outlandish to you? I mentioned skid marks in relation to this debunker article here - their skidmarks invisible on the satellite photo - and if you believe there were no skid marks - then we're back to astroturf - and an amazing zero altitude approach (not even the best fighter jock in the usaf could match it) - that just magically disappears inside the building... with a few pieces to be found on the lawn. Really Claymore - is this stuff credible to you? Obviously so. (shakes head.)

Sources? What sources? Gimme a source showing evidence of a Predator, or a cruise missile, or anything other than a 757. And while you're at it, explain where the 757 and its passengers disappeared to.

I don't know where they disappeared to. We have astroturf and a few pieces - the rest disappeared inside the building or mysteriously vapourised or were consumed in the fire - and we've seen the photies - no jet and few pieces - where is the usual mess? Also - it doesn't seem a very big fire - and at that same debunker site - they seem to be spraying water - when do they ever spray water on an aircraft crash/fire? You ask for a link showing a predator - why don't you post a link showing a 757.

Source material for that? Where? Please provide sources stating the number of successful intercepts of civilian aircraft over North America.

Your quote came from skeptic.com: my quote came from Peak Oil - a pdf document - something you should read - but unknown where it is on the site (maybe for sale?)

Here's my source: http://www.skeptic.com/eskeptic/06-09-11.html

Skeptic.com is exactly that - a thumbsuck debunker site as reliable as a snowflake. (And reference my speeds above - which in your post come off skeptic.com)

Now, I'm still waiting for an actual theory of what you think happened on 9/11. So far I can glean that you do not believe a 757 hit the Pentagon, and that the aircraft impacts and resulting fires did not bring down the towers, and that fires and damage from the towers did not bring down WTC.

What do you think *really* happened, in detail?

I will make a post regarding what I think happened (just as soon as I put it together.) Thank you for your post of support bwana.
 
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Claymore

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What balls Claymore - you have the audacity to post that double post here - why not simply provide the link (you took it off) - or are you too 'frightened' what will be found at that link (towards your point of view.) I request that you remove that bandwidth hog - post a summary with links - and save us all some time.

I'd be delighted to share the URL with you. It's "C:\Documents and Settings\Claymore\Desktop\9.11_Conspiracies.pdf". Happy?

(Yes, it was a PDF I received by email).

"Also - is this the best you can do? Where are any material facts in that article for instance "a raging inferno over multi-floors," etc. Now - you post some brain dead debunker article - but it is a thumbsuck - accusing the conspiracists of living in a alternate reality - but providing no germane facts as to why it is bullsh#t. I have shown multi-times on this thread that the the NIST faq is "not worth the paper it is written on" - but here you have the fear/balls/cheek - to post that garbage while supposedly debunking my FACTS from the NIST report (the governments OWN voice.)"

It's an OPINION piece - perhaps you missed that. It doesn't ask for material facts, it's ASKING for a real theory.

So, are you up to it?
 
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kilo39

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Messages
5,425
I'd be delighted to share the URL with you. It's "C:\Documents and Settings\Claymore\Desktop\9.11_Conspiracies.pdf". Happy?

(Yes, it was a PDF I received by email).

It's an OPINION piece - perhaps you missed that. It doesn't ask for material facts, it's ASKING for a real theory.

So, are you up to it?

:D I be thinking:

(and BTW - in regard to your bandwidth/free thought hog - I first took it as a sign you can at least use a seach engine - but not - you posted from a pdf - of which a short search would have found the original.)
 
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Claymore

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I watched the 2nd jet go into the tower - there is no way - it had dived from 29000 feet (info on this should be out there - why don't you look for a link for a change) - it did a slow, practically lumbering turn - probably more like 230 knots -. And no - the pentagon jet flight path was from altitude - not WTC either jet.

Ah, so now a TV armchair expert is the best qualified on providing impact speeds and altitudes? Why didn't the NTSB call you up, since you're obviously in a better position to evaluate it.

Since you like links so much, check these out.

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc03.pdf, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_11
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB196/doc01.pdf, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_175

Both of those show flight altitude profiles. I think that should make it pretty clear what altitude they were coming in from. Flight 11 came from 29000' or so in 10 minutes, 3200' per minute. Flight 175 descended from 28500' in 5 minutes.

Cruising speed: 540 mph (868 km/h) 530 knots (982 km/h) - this would be at optimum altitude. As I probably don't have to elucidate - these speeds are not possible at low altitude. [source]

Firstly, you quote a cruising speed. You do not quote *maximum* speeds.
Secondly, you don't quote any max speeds at low level, beyond your opinion, never mind speeds at the terminal point of a dive.
Thirdly, you give me a link to the Wikipedia Boeing 757 page, which is completely irrelevant, since no Boeing 757s hit the towers.

Also, you seem to be working on the assumption that the pilots would be careful to observe FAA speed regulations and aircraft operating parameters and thus not exceed stick to cruise speeds. Do you think they were worried about damage occurring to the aircraft?

"Lay off the throttles, Mohamed! You want to get us killed?"

FWIW, a Boeing 767 can definitely read Mach 0.99 at 22000', as demonstrated by Egyptair flight 990. http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2002/AAB0201.htm

Claymore - I am sure (I certainly hope -though your record on this thread says otherwise) - that you have seen video on this. What do you see? What does the fire department record say? The video shows major combustion outside the building (on impact) - the firefighter reports - state - no fire on the impact floor - or a 2 hose or however it was described, ie, it was easily manageable - which would stand to reason with a fire retardant interior on the jet - and numerous (I'm sucking) safety features built into fuel tanks, fuel systems and the like - exactly to stop fire - in any event. When last did you see a racing car explode on impact with the barrier at 320k? A long, long, time ago... commercial jets don't extend to self-sealing tanks and the rest - but fire retardant features are numerous... so what are we left with? Ooh, computers, files and the lunch sandwiches - (do I even need to tut?)

Er...I feel as though I shouldn't need to point this out, but safety features in fuel tanks, and fire retardant on engines is of absolutely no use if the fuel is no longer *in* the tanks, and the tanks are shattered. Similarly, aircraft interior materials that are fire resistant are not going to last long when immolated.

Oh - isn't that all very neat and tidy - like we are not talking the release of massive forces - no - these massive forces fall straight down into a neat pile - it wasn't a pancake - no - this tremendous energy was somehow mysteriously released - to cause a free-fall... no resistance or conservation of momentum - and it wasn't a pancake - now tell me - what causes a massive unleashing of energy - 12 stories collapsing above? Maybe. 24000 thousand gallons of fuel - not. Okay - so 12 stories collapsing above - but it all fell down in a neat straight line - in 11 seconds. Into its own footprint - dang - not even humpty dumpty did it so neat.

If the support goes, the building goes. Structural engineers far more more qualified than I am seem happy with that.

As for the "own footprint" thing - let's see some proof of that. I've seen different: http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/collapses/mushrooming.html

The tailplane would survive this accident because - we have a nice soft jet impacting a reinforced building - oh it disappeared inside - oh, it fell off and got consumed in the fire - does this really not sound outlandish to you? I mentioned skid marks in relation to this debunker article here - their skidmarks invisible on the satellite photo - and if you believe there were no skid marks - then we're back to astroturf - and an amazing zero altitude approach (not even the best fighter jock in the usaf could match it) - that just magically disappears inside the building... with a few pieces to be found on the lawn. Really Claymore - is this stuff credible to you? Obviously so. (shakes head.)

Actually, yes, a fair number of small pieces found on the lawn, including pieces of the tail. I don't see a problem with the approach - after all, it's not like the pilot was worried about *hitting* anything, was he? And as for low-level high speed approaches...you've never been to airshows, have you?

I don't know where they disappeared to. We have astroturf and a few pieces - the rest disappeared inside the building or mysteriously vapourised or were consumed in the fire - and we've seen the photies - no jet and few pieces - where is the usual mess? Also - it doesn't seem a very big fire - and at that same debunker site - they seem to be spraying water - when do they ever spray water on an aircraft crash/fire? You ask for a link showing a predator - why don't you post a link showing a 757.

Cool it with the dashes; it breaks up your writing rather badly.

Er...there certainly was a big mess of pieces in the pics. Go view them again. The link I posted does include identified pics of 757 parts, incidentally.

Regarding the fire suppression: it looks like foam to me. Even if it was water, what's the problem with that? Normal fire response vehicles don't carry foam, so they may well have used water, which was at hand.

Your quote came from skeptic.com: my quote came from Peak Oil - a pdf document - something you should read - but unknown where it is on the site (maybe for sale?)

Convenient...

Skeptic.com is exactly that - a thumbsuck debunker site as reliable as a snowflake. (And reference my speeds above - which in your post come off skeptic.com)

Incidentally, your link in the debunker article also quoted similar speeds.
 

kilo39

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Ah, so now a TV armchair expert is the best qualified on providing impact speeds and altitudes? Why didn't the NTSB call you up, since you're obviously in a better position to evaluate it.

So I'm a "armchair expert?" What then are you? I at least do some research - after many posts - you eventually get off your backside and do the same - good for you.

Since you like links so much, check these out.

If you are going to post pdf's - post a small relevant clip - and the link - do not expect me to download your pdf's for you to prove a point. Also - spend some more time investigating; you would find that wikipedia on this subject is open to obscuration and ill intent. (see LG's earlier post.)

Both of those show flight altitude profiles. I think that should make it pretty clear what altitude they were coming in from. Flight 11 came from 29000' or so in 10 minutes, 3200' per minute. Flight 175 descended from 28500' in 5 minutes.

Re: above - and whichever: I saw the second plane approach - it was on a level, not in a dive - it may have dived but on impact they were on level approach.

Firstly, you quote a cruising speed. You do not quote *maximum* speeds.
Secondly, you don't quote any max speeds at low level, beyond your opinion, never mind speeds at the terminal point of a dive.
Thirdly, you give me a link to the Wikipedia Boeing 757 page, which is completely irrelevant, since no Boeing 757s hit the towers.


You really need to use some lateral thinking and a little gray matter; for one I am obviously aware I posted 'cruising speed' - cruising speed in an airliner is optimum flight - top speed is not far off - trimmed for fuel efficiency and flight profile - in this context there is little difference. 757, 767 are same family and flight profiles exactly similar; and please, don't bore me on this subject; I could as easily have quoted boeings own site (but didn't for clarity and cohesion.)

Also, you seem to be working on the assumption that the pilots would be careful to observe FAA speed regulations and aircraft operating parameters and thus not exceed stick to cruise speeds. Do you think they were worried about damage occurring to the aircraft?

Their primary objective was to get to the target; speed is beside the point. And fact: a zero altitude approach to the pentagon, to hit as described, is practically a physical impossibility.

"Lay off the throttles, Mohamed! You want to get us killed?"

Ag, sis.

FWIW, a Boeing 767 can definitely read Mach 0.99 at 22000', as demonstrated by Egyptair flight 990. http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2002/AAB0201.htm

Note mach number, which as any neophyte will tell you is dependent on altitude: exactly why 800 or 900 k's is impossible at low altitude with WTC.

Er...I feel as though I shouldn't need to point this out, but safety features in fuel tanks, and fire retardant on engines is of absolutely no use if the fuel is no longer *in* the tanks, and the tanks are shattered. Similarly, aircraft interior materials that are fire resistant are not going to last long when immolated.

Claymore - look at the damage, look at the unleashing of forces: do you really think this is due to aircraft impact?

If the support goes, the building goes. Structural engineers far more more qualified than I am seem happy with that.

You seem happy with a lot oh blind mouse.

As for the "own footprint" thing - let's see some proof of that. I've seen different: http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/collapses/mushrooming.html

Without looking at the document: mushrooming?! YES, exactly; what level of forces causes "mushrooming?"

Actually, yes, a fair number of small pieces found on the lawn, including pieces of the tail. I don't see a problem with the approach - after all, it's not like the pilot was worried about *hitting* anything, was he? And as for low-level high speed approaches...you've never been to airshows, have you?

What you don't know.

Cool it with the dashes; it breaks up your writing rather badly.

Unfortunately(?) dashes seem part of my style, I will try keep it in mind. (Anybody else have an opinion on this?)

Er...there certainly was a big mess of pieces in the pics. Go view them again. The link I posted does include identified pics of 757 parts, incidentally.

Oh yes; was it a bit of unidentified engine?

Regarding the fire suppression: it looks like foam to me. Even if it was water, what's the problem with that? Normal fire response vehicles don't carry foam, so they may well have used water, which was at hand.

Whichever; there they are - supposedly standing in the middle of an aircrash on a pristine lawn. Oh God is Great.

Convenient...

I must try find the pdf on the web but haven't managed to date. At least I reference a site which is a lot more than you do; and i have searched for the pdf which is more than you did with your "I, Left Gatekeeper" article.

Incidentally, your link in the debunker article also quoted similar speeds.

Exactly. What does "cruising" in reference to airliners mean to you: it means optimum altitude, optimum speed, ie, speeds of 800, 900k. Therefore how can these speeds be used in reality; when they are the exact speeds referenced for cruising. Debunker = exact speeds quoted on wikipedia for cruising.

Double jeopardy: cruising, mushrooming, mach number, debunker sites.
 
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Claymore

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pert?" What then are you? I at least do some research - after many posts - you eventually get off your backside and do the same - good for you.

I'm an armchair expert too. The difference is that what I'm saying is backed by experts.

If you are going to post pdf's - post a small relevant clip - and the link - do not expect me to download your pdf's for you to prove a point. Also - spend some more time investigating; you would find that wikipedia on this subject is open to obscuration and ill intent. (see LG's earlier post.)

I would love to post clips, but this BB does not permit the posting of graphics; those PDFs are scans, and of graphics, at that.

Re: above - and whichever: I saw the second plane approach - it was on a level, not in a dive - it may have dived but on impact they were on level approach.

So where did the the accumulated speed and momentum go? Did it just "disappear"? When something dives and levels out, that accumulated energy (conversion of potential energy into kinetic energy - i.e. momentum and speed) is still there!

You really need to use some lateral thinking and a little gray matter; for one I am obviously aware I posted 'cruising speed' - cruising speed in an airliner is optimum flight - top speed is not far off - trimmed for fuel efficiency and flight profile - in this context there is little difference. 757, 767 are same family and flight profiles exactly similar; and please, don't bore me on this subject; I could as easily have quoted boeings own site (but didn't for clarity and cohesion.)

Cruising speed is a optimum speed suitable for efficiency, reliability, and business requirements - none of which was applicable here.

Their primary objective was to get to the target; speed is beside the point.

So the damage caused was not a concern to them?

And fact: a zero altitude approach to the pentagon, to hit as described, is practically a physical impossibility.

Really? Proof, please.

Note mach number, which as any neophyte will tell you is dependent on altitude: exactly why 800 or 900 k's is impossible at low altitude with WTC.

I'm still waiting for proof of this. You keep saying it's impossible, but you have not shown anything to demonstrate this.

Incidentally, 950kph at low altitude is Mach 0.77. (Mach 1 is 1225kph). The reason jets fly at high altitude is primarily for efficiency reasons, not speeed reasons; jet engines are very inefficient (ITO fuel consumption) at low altitude.

Claymore - look at the damage, look at the unleashing of forces: do you really think this is due to aircraft impact?

Solely, no. Consequential, yes.

Without looking at the document: mushrooming?! YES, exactly; what level of forces causes "mushrooming?"

Quite a lot, all tied up nicely in the potential energy of the building.

Unfortunately(?) dashes seem part of my style, I will try keep it in mind. (Anybody else have an opinion on this?)

Sorry, it just makes things seem a little disjointed. I've been trying to wean myself off them too.

Oh yes; was it a bit of unidentified engine?

Nope, it was identified as a Rolls-Royce RB211.

Exactly. What does "cruising" in reference to airliners mean to you: it means optimum altitude, optimum speed, ie, speeds of 800, 900k. Therefore how can these speeds be used in reality; when they are the exact speeds referenced for cruising. Debunker = exact speeds quoted on wikipedia for cruising.

Really? The debunking articles have quoted 700 or 800kph for one aircraft, and 950kph for the other. Wikipedia's cruise speed is quoted as 870kph. What makes you think that 700, 800 or 950 are exactly the same as 870kph?

Incidentally, max cruise speed is around 5% faster than most efficient cruise speed, but comes at a 1% increase in fuel consumption; the increase is generally considered worth it, so that's what airlines fly.
 

kilo39

Executive Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2005
Messages
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Claymore - on the issue of speed: unknown/can't now find your original reference, besides this:

By comparison, the WTC planes were larger aircraft, fully loaded, and rammed into the towers deliverately at 800 and 950kph. Big difference, *very* big difference.

Looked at skeptic.com but didn't find speed.

I argue speed because speed is dependent on altitude - higher altitude equals faster speeds, and wikipedia uses the speeds you quoted as "cruising speed." Point being that high altitude cruising speed is higly unlikely to equal similar speed close to the ground.

At sea level, at a temperature of 15 °C (59 °F) and under normal atmospheric conditions, the speed of sound is 344 m/s (1225 km/h or 761 mph).
[source]

So, you are trying to tell me these jets were doing close to the speed of sound when they hit the towers - blatantly false because any video evidence (of the 2nd jet for instance, obviously is travelling nowhere near the speed of sound, and yes, I've been to some of the world's top airshows and am fully aware of what the speed of sound looks like at low level.) The lumbering jet that hit the second tower was doing nowhere near the speed of sound, I would think it was doing the usual speed in a low altitude configuration, ie, about 230 knots or less, and we also should know, these jets have low landing speeds, under 200 knots.

I notice boeing doesn't post a "maximum speed," it is irrelevant in terms of airlines (load, thrust, range, cruise, etc, being more important.)

But I do find this:
Boeing 767 Maximum Speed: 583 mph [source]

So your max quoted above of 800-950kph is plainly impossible as this would be maximum speed at altitude, ie, the only place where true maximum speed would be attained.

Your post:

I'm an armchair expert too. The difference is that what I'm saying is backed by experts.

Where? The NIST faq is shown to be not worth the paper it is written on (explain concrete pulverizing to dust, even explain mushrooming.) Explain the woman alive in the impact hole (which you still haven't managed to do.) Explain the firefighters reports of being on the impact floor. All directly in contrast to the NIST faq, the ULTIMATE authority on these events.

So where did the the accumulated speed and momentum go? Did it just "disappear"? When something dives and levels out, that accumulated energy (conversion of potential energy into kinetic energy - i.e. momentum and speed) is still there!

So you are not disagreeing that on impact the jets were in level flight. I speak the 2nd jet because I saw this with my own eyes (tv). It made a slow turn. A turn at the speeds you describe, once again, is something an experienced pilot would have a problem executing in an airliner but this is a cessna pilot, obviously a natural ace in your estimation.

On the hit to the pentagon and astroturf: I did find info on this and I don't feel like searching for it again; simply, rules of ground effect and plain pilot overload at that speed at low altitude make this a difficult maneuver for even the most experienced pilot.

Solely, no. Consequential, yes.

So, the building mysteriously vapourised due to the impact of the jet and floors collapsing. Do you really think it would be so neat and leave such a neat pile x 2 buildings?

Quite a lot, all tied up nicely in the potential energy of the building.

Do you really have any clue what you're talking about. This is not a sprung elastic band; it is a 110 story building, the height of engineering. But no, pulverised to dust. Thousands of tons of steel and concrete a smoking hole in the ground. Fairy dust never had it so good.

Nope, it was identified as a Rolls-Royce RB211.

Please point to one link where this was verified. Or rather, don't know where you got the boeing reference from but I found this:

Chicago's Museum of Science and Industry displays the Pratt & Whitney JT8D. These photos show that JT8D matches the Pentagon engine photographed at the crash site.
[source]

Note that url comes off rense, and what with upsurging debuker sites (this one referenced by NIST) then who knows anymore.

Really? The debunking articles have quoted 700 or 800kph for one aircraft, and 950kph for the other. Wikipedia's cruise speed is quoted as 870kph. What makes you think that 700, 800 or 950 are exactly the same as 870kph?

And here you are posting speeds again, speeds that are plainly impossible at low altitude especially insofar as my max speed quoted above.
 
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