A Coincidence Theorists Guide to 911

[Freshy-ZN]

Just thought I'd help refresh your memory - Your earlier posts claimed it was 3,000 pounds

http://www.mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=455749&postcount=90
http://www.mybroadband.co.za/vb/showpost.php?p=456591&postcount=119

So whats that? 3 Tons? I Loaded 2.5 tons of building rubble into a trailer with 2 llabourers in about 1 hour the other day. I dont see moving 3000 pounds of explosives as a problem if they had access to the basement area.

 

[bwana]

So whats that? 3 Tons? I Loaded 2.5 tons of building rubble into a trailer with 2 llabourers in about 1 hour the other day. I dont see moving 3000 pounds of explosives as a problem if they had access to the basement area.

But try doing it unseen in a 24/7 building. Surely explosives would have had to have been placed all over the building and not just the basement?

 

[Freshy-ZN]

But try doing it unseen in a 24/7 building. Surely explosives would have had to have been placed all over the building and not just the basement?

Eish im no explosives expert. But if the stories I referred to above are true and the place was closed down for maintenance the weekend before and all these people were coming and going as they pleased?

In a nutshell, the whole 911 thing for me just doesnt make sense. I was in the states the year before 911 and even though I am of European descent but with a funnt accent, I got sniffed, patted, searched and all sorts at aiports in the states. I went through JFK, Denver, Minneapolis/St Paul, Miami, Orlando, Aspen and let me tell you security was a nightmare BEFORE 911. How do arab types get onto planes with boxcutters??????????????

 

[craigsa]

Very slowly and carefully

 

[bwana]

Eish im no explosives expert. But if the stories I referred to above are true and the place was closed down for maintenance the weekend before and all these people were coming and going as they pleased?

In a nutshell, the whole 911 thing for me just doesnt make sense. I was in the states the year before 911 and even though I am of European descent but with a funnt accent, I got sniffed, patted, searched and all sorts at aiports in the states. I went through JFK, Denver, Minneapolis/St Paul, Miami, Orlando, Aspen and let me tell you security was a nightmare BEFORE 911. How do arab types get onto planes with boxcutters??????????????

Sorry but I cant realistically see the wtc being closed for maintenance but if you find the source or records of the evidence of strange maintenance you mentioned then I'll take a gander at it - there are offices there that need to run 24/7.

Airport security before 9/11 was defiantly lax compared to today. I used to carry my leatherman or other pocketknife in my pocket or in my hand luggage regularly. Pack one in a bag with enough other metallic gear/clutter/camoflage and it could easily slip past a security guard just going through the motions. Box cutters are also not all that threatening at a glance - not compared to say a bowie knife with a 12" blade.

 

[LoneGunman]

back again. well, I quoted the physics prof who worked it out - so if thats what was said, thats it then. That's not a lot of 'volume' of material for people to cart into a place, given the heavy weight of munitions themselves inherently. So we're talking probably the equiv of two or maybe three back-of-bakkie loads worth of actual quantity of materials. Its only civilians who need tons of fertiliser and other huge quantity methods for making things go boom.
The London bombings for instance, I think it was mentioned that they were military-grade munitions (which has never been explored) - point being, looking at the material damage done from what was easily carried on someone's back, which I'd imagine wasn't more than say 20 - 30 pounds or so, 3000 pounds of serious munitions placed correctly, would be probably quite ample.

EDIT - re WTC 'closed for maintenance' - nope, you misunderstand - the building as such wasnt ever closed down. Explosive sniffing dogs were pulled off briefly, there was some kind of 'security stand down' overall, power was turned off on a number of occasions, causing irritation to various companies on different floors, and the maintenance happened on a couple of very specific floors - all ahead of 911. Again, there's no requirement that every little thing had to have happened immediately ahead of 911, various parts could be in place for months if not years.

Also, re the box cutters story - that still doesnt explain how multiple aircraft in the air, at pretty much exactly the same time, had their transponders turned off, and also doesnt explain how supposed hijackers (I think 6 or more of whom are actually alive and rather angry at being listed as being the 911 hijackers) all managed to get into cockpits and stop the pilots from punching a 'we are being hijacked' code into their keyboards. Then there's all those cellphone calls, which technically couldn't really have been made at that time (various phone companies have only recently announced the 'new' facility allowing for cell calls to be made from airplanes, yet on 911, there was 'magic' in the air allowing scientifically impossible calls to be made without problems from apparent victims..)

But back to the current Charlie Sheen thing, where he quite accurately points to WTC 7 as being indicative of something bogus on 911 - here's the CNN piece: http://prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/230306Sheen_CNN.htm
(and keeping in mind the subsequent poll with over 50 000 people participating, and 83% agreeing with Sheen..)
Note the story with screenshots, detailing Google's brief attempt to censor the Sheen comments:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/230306googlecensoring.htm
more video's of the 47 storey building in question:
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html
And more interesting pix, and data: http://www.rense.com/general65/911m.htm

 

[bwana]

I'm sorry but apart from having an opinion and being blessed with an audience Charlie Sheen's credentials are what exactly?

 

[LoneGunman]

bwana v.9 - thats irrelevent. As Sheen himself said - 'debate me on the facts'.

As to 'who he is' - he's just high profile enough to be listened to. And that's sufficient. He's not claiming to be any expert - but he is, quite logically, stating 'debate me on the facts of the case that he raises'.

So asking what his credentials are, is to be avoiding the facts he raises, and trying to make it about who he is - as if only qualified people can raise issues where there's glaring contradictions in an official story. And that's not logical.

It is a technique used by people who CAN'T debate someone on the facts of a case, however - to try and divert from the facts raised. Either the facts are true, or they're not.
And good for Charlie Sheen, he's using his position to raise issues - like his dad before him, Martin Sheen, who's been an activist and prominent in protesting against the US training school for South American death squads, known as 'the School of the America's'.

 

[bwana]

I'm wading through the interview right now - boy does Alex Jones' voice irritate me .

Obviously I have a vested interest in the truth coming out and never have I denied that perhaps some things are being withheld from us but the rants of the 9/11 gone-bonkers brigade (as referred to by the NY Post) just lack credibility in my mind. So yes - that Charlie Sheen was unable to even graduate high school means something to me. An actor, a theologian, and a physicist havent convinced me regardless of the number of times they're paraded around. Perhaps some new, fresh evidence will and I eagerly await its arrival with an open mind. I also look forward to continue debating or even agreeing with you then.

Also despite what you say facts can only be true.

 

[Claymore]

LG, you claimed that the WTC buildings collapsed into their own footprints. Can you provide some evidence of this? I believe Loose Change claimed this, but they obviously missed all the debris scattered over a massive area.

 

[LoneGunman]

bwana v.9 - yeah, alex jones irritates the hell out of me.
Again. Let's patiently teach you how to learn something. Facts are facts, whether its a dancing chimp who says them, an actor or a theologian. Data is either TRUE, or NOT TRUE. If you're too lazy to check facts yourself - especially scientific data - and instead point towards the careers of people mentioning said facts, as if that has any relevance to the validity of the facts, them I'm sorry for you - and whoever taught you to think
I get the feeling you'd rather wait until some uber-human is born called 'a Super Duper Supreme Fact Lord' before you'd use some logic and LOOK AT THE FACTS themselves not the messengers

Claymore. You're actually serious?? Heheh - Well ahem, when a 110 storey building drops into their own footprint, there is obviously an overspill of debris.
Unless you honestly think 'drops into their own footprint' means the building folds up neatly and magically and doesnt extend beyond its own perimeter

And I'm not the 'only one who claims' they dropped into their own footprints, I think even a casual search online will provide you with thousands of links, news items, analysis.
-------------------------------
Here's part of a letter that Ed Asner, the only other high profile Hollywood celeb sofar to come out and challenge the official story, wrote in 2004.

Its worth reading, - naturally tho if you're into bwana-style 'logic', then please ignore the facts he mentions, and just sneer, because he happens to be an actor

"I would like to suggest to you emphatically that the 9-11 truth movement is the most pressing issue of the peace & justice movement today. Here is why. 9-11 has been used to justify "endless war" and a continual rollback in civil liberties that seems to have no end in sight. Yet, 9-11 remains the least examined tragedy in modern American history.

"Americans would have never agreed to the last two wars and the Patriot Act's disturbing policy . . . had it not been for 9-11.

"There are many disturbing issues around 9-11 that have yet to be examined in any meaningful way by our media, Congress, and even by the 9-11 Commission. These include accountability for the massive breakdown of air defense and plane intercept procedures as described in FAA and DOD regulations, which were violated on 9-11...

"This breakdown and astounding unpreparedness by U.S. domestic defense agencies is puzzling to say the least, given the detailed reports our government had of the coming attacks, that were bizarrely suppressed by key officials.
"For example, FBI Agent Coleen Rowley suggested that her offices' attempts to alert higher ups in the FBI of the pre 9-11 activities of Zacharias Moussaoui "seemed to have been consistently, almost DELIBERATELY thwart[ed] . . ." While George Tenet, Director of the CIA, had received a memo in August of 2001 (one month before the attacks of 9-11) on this report entitled, "Islamic Extremists Learn to Fly." Yet, Tenet took no action on this memo. The FBI agents responsible for the now famous "Phoenix Memo" regarding Osama Bin Laden sending students to the U.S. to attend civil aviation schools, also struggled to get their higher ups to act on this information.
"To date, no one has been held accountable for the massive defense failures on 9-11, nor for the bizarre suppression of critical warnings prior to 9-11. Furthermore, we still have no explanation for why the head of Pakistani intelligence, who was meeting with top Bush Administration officials in Washington on 9-11-2001, had wired lead hijacker Mohammed Atta $100,000.00 weeks before 9-11. We still do not know who made the insider stock trades in weeks and days leading up to 9-11, by betting "against" United and American Airlines stocks (the aircraft used as missiles on 9-11).

"What we DO KNOW is that $5 million of those insider stock trade "winnings" apparently by someone who had foreknowledge of the coming attacks, were made the day before 9-11 at AB Brown Trust. AB Brown Trust was headed until his induction into the CIA by Buzzy Krongard, who is now the Executive Director of the CIA. We also know that the current head of AB Brown Trust quietly resigned his position on 9-11, with no media scrutiny nor apparently government scrutiny. Lastly, and perhaps most bizarre is the fact that $2.5 million of those stock "winnings" against these airlines made at AB Brown Trust . . . remain unclaimed.

"We deserve to know why no one has been held accountable, and who made those insider stock trades. We also deserve to know why the Bush Administration allowed members of the Bin Laden family to quietly leave the U.S. after 9-11, with virtually no questioning by the FBI, and at a time when other Americans were not allowed to fly.

"There are many other profound, and bizarrely "unasked" questions around 9-11. I urge all to read "The New Pearl Harbor: Disturbing Questions About the Bush Administration and 9/11" by David Ray Griffin, and endorsed by Howard Zinn, and to view "The Great Deception" documentary by acclaimed Canadian television journalist Barry Zwicker. Peace & justice leaders and activists will find these works a great resource for getting current on the 9-11 truth issue, and can be great organizing tools to educate others.

"I fear that if the underlying issues of 9-11 truth are not demanded, that Iraq may be but a flame on an ocean of gasoline that may be used to ignite war after war after war. We cannot, as a peace & justice movement only address the flames. We must look at the fuel being used to justify the flames of war and repression at home and abroad. We must look deeply at the events leading up to, on and since 9-11. We must demand full 9-11 truth."

 

[LoneGunman]

Looping back to the security questions on WTC and pre 911

Heightened WTC Security Alert Had Just Been Lifted

The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday [September 11]. Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday [September 6], bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.
http://www.nynewsday.com/news/local/manhattan/wtc/ny-nyaler122362178sep12,0,6794009.story


Pre-9/11 World Trade Center Power-Down
On the weekend of 9/8, 9/9 there was a 'power down' condition in WTC tower 2, the south tower. This power down condition meant there was no electrical supply for approx 36 hrs from floor 50 up... "Of course without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors and many, many 'engineers' coming in and out of the tower."
http://69.28.73.17/thornarticles/powerdown.html


Gee, who'd have thought this? WTC surveillance tapes feared missing
Surveillance tapes and maintenance logs are among the missing evidence as investigators try to figure out why the World Trade Center collapsed, federal officials said Monday. ... The lost records probably contain vital information that could help answer questions, Sunder said. Investigators are trying to locate copies of many destroyed documents from the building's owners and city agencies.
http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/wtc/evidence/fortwayne_wtctapes.htm

and you have to ask - just who were the people telling WTC inhabitants not to leave the building..

Among the fortunate of those was Arturo Domingo of Morgan Stanley. The descent had been calm and orderly, much better than after the 1993 blast, he said. But when he reached the 44th floor, he said, a man with a megaphone told people there was no problem.

"His exact words were, `Our building is secure. You can go back to your floor. If you're a little winded, you can get a drink of water or coffee in the cafeteria,' " said Mr. Domingo. He and a group of other Morgan Stanley employees rode an elevator back up to the 60th floor and returned to their desks. "How stupid were we," he says.
http://www.sptimes.com/News/091301/Worldandnation/Decision_to_stay_doom.shtml

Jennifer joined the rush to safety, making it down to the 52nd floor when, as she put it, "Some jackass started yelling up at us through a bullhorn saying: 'This tower has been secured. You are in America. Return to your offices!'"
http://www.mrbellersneighborhood.com/sec9/shewason

John Howard, who works at Morgan Stanley, on the 60th floor of 2 World Trade Center, said the plane's crash into Building 1 shook his offices. During the evacuation, he said, there was a guy with a bullhorn telling them to stop.

"He was telling us, 'Don't panic!' saying that we we're safer in the building than leaving it," Howard said. "As he was saying that, there was a huge explosion right there. It was surreal. People were in a full-fledged panic. We all ran over the guy with the bullhorn to get out."
http://www.newsday.com/ny-nyeye122362105sep12.story

 

[Freshy-ZN]

Just stumbled upon this article quite by accident....wooooooah.

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?





By Steven E. Jones

Department of Physics and Astronomy

Brigham Young University

Provo, UT 84602





ABSTRACT



In this paper, I call for a serious investigation of the hypothesis that WTC 7 and the Twin Towers were brought down, not just by impact damage and fires, but through the use of pre-positioned cutter-charges. I consider the official FEMA, NIST, and 9-11 Commission reports that fires plus impact damage alone caused complete collapses of all three buildings. And I present evidence for the controlled-demolition hypothesis, which is suggested by the available data, testable and falsifiable, and yet has not been analyzed in any of the reports funded by the US government..............

 

[LoneGunman]

Freshy-ZN - heh, you missed all the fun a while back in this thread and another 911 thread - I had extensive warfare over the people who couldn't understand the science in that article - but yeah, that's one of the best essays on the WTC collapses ever.
The semi 'companion piece' to that essay is another scholarly essay titled:
The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True
http://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html

You might also want to browse through SCHOLARS FOR 911 TRUTH: http://www.st911.org/

Then for some interesting video footage: http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtcshake.mpg
(12 seconds before WTC1 collapse, the tripod shakes)

It corroborates with this:
video link: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3498980438587461603&q=eyewitness
(Time frame 52:50 - 55:10 , explosions can be heard roughly 12 seconds before WTC1 collapse + smoke rising from the streets)

Quick video (4meg) of a fireman stating in what looks like some sort of report/documentary, that when he was leaving the WTC building, there was some sort of shaking/rumbling, then as he turned the corner to go down the stairwell, smoke/debris/air flew UP the stairwell towards him. Then part of the floor he was on collapsed, and caused him to fall almost a full floor. This would indicate that somewhere BELOW him, the structural integrity of the building was compromised.
http://plaguepuppy.net/public_html/video archive/floor26th_firefighter_high_quality.wmv

 

[Urbanbeats]

Where do you hide the xplosives?
The best place to hide something is "in your face".Disquise is the word here.Change some "faulty" aircons or any electrical equipment,loaded with the xplosives.Why?Because then you don't need messy cables to detonate the xplosives,you do it thru the building's electrical wire.Audio and video signals can already be carried thru it.

When will you do this?
Anytime,during the day.Please note WTC was been evacuated several times before 9/11,maybe to test the signals.

How did they pull it off without anyone talking?
You only need 20-30 people at the top.Most of the groundwork is done by people in good faith that they are busy with there normal day job.Milltary people do their job on a need to know basis.

Note:That was ironically the day the US was on its most vurnable for an attack.The videos in those doccies are mostly from the live feeds of CNN,BBC,ect..so if you don't believe what you see you actually don't believe the official story.

OFF TOPIC:The claims in the NEW WORLD ORDER doccies about reducing the world's population by 80% is getting more attention now with the outbreak of birdflu.

 

[Freshy-ZN]

Freshy-ZN - heh, you missed all the fun a while back in this thread and another 911 thread - I had extensive warfare over the people who couldn't understand the science in that article - but yeah, that's one of the best essays on the WTC collapses ever.

I havent missed much I can tell you. Ive been studying the events of 911 for at least 2 years and have my own rather large reference library.

I have read this thread with much interest as its great to see new analysis and opinions of the same sticking points of the 'official' accounts.

I just dont know where you get the time..........get a job you hippy!

 

[Padded Mouse]

This information directly effects each and EVERY one of us

I'm busy watching a BBC documentary on channel 4 "dispatches: stealing your freedom" which clearly shows the same things which are happening in the USA, regarding the shift of power and the rise of Big Brother are VERY real.

Do you really think it doesn't have any impact on your life in South Africa ?
Think again.

It's your choice, either be educated or ignorant. When the chips are down and you find your civil liberties worthless, you will have only yourself to blame.

No man is an Island entire of himself ........ Every man's death diminishes me for I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee!

 

[Claymore]

Claymore. You're actually serious?? Heheh - Well ahem, when a 110 storey building drops into their own footprint, there is obviously an overspill of debris.
Unless you honestly think 'drops into their own footprint' means the building folds up neatly and magically and doesnt extend beyond its own perimeter

And I'm not the 'only one who claims' they dropped into their own footprints, I think even a casual search online will provide you with thousands of links, news items, analysis.[/I]

Proof, please.

Here's a diagram:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/collapses/mushrooming.html

 

[LoneGunman]

I would be highly suspicious of that site you choose to quote from, given its clear disinformation approach. Instead of focusing on the provable anomalies of 911, doesnt your 'desperately seeking proof that the official story is true' mind wonder why SO much of that site you quote from, is taken up with not only showing how most 911 theories aren't true, but goes so far as to make a list of what it calls 'false' websites - take for instance this deliberate listing of websites that 'it' feels are disinformation..
http://911review.com/disinfo/sites.html

911review goes further, its obvious rightwing bias (duh, I mean look at this article from it, effectively saying the 'the Left' are the ones who embrace any idea's of 911 veering from the official view'. Therefore, in case you cant join the dots - this site is extreme rightwing in nature. Its a US 'patriot site' disguised as a '911 truth' site)
http://911review.com/denial/gatekeepers.html

That site is a joke, its systematically trying to not only ignore and misrepresent photographic evidence, it bypasses the hundreds of 'coincidences' which the Gov wants to make folks believe all somehow happened at the same time on 911..
It bypasses all the official lies of 'no one could have expected this' that the Gov says - when facts show otherwise.

911review is bogus science for armchair debunkers. Look at this Pentagon hole page of theirs -
http://911review.com/errors/pentagon/smallhole.html

On the one hand, at left in the first paragraph they're saying "However, analysis of the available photographs shows that the debris outside the building is difficult to quantify.."
Yet at right, while trying to show that an airplane somehow sneaked through a 16ft wide hole, after folding its wings up neatly - there's TWO pix which clearly show a debris-free lawn..what happened to the 'debris field is difficult to quantify' statement?
And lower on the page, it uses a pic with firefighter foam spraying, and suggests that the 'bigger' hole is hidden horizontally behind the foam spray. LOL. That's reaching badly.
Point being that site goes back and forth, ignoring its own photographic evidence, in order to present whatever immediate debunking its trying to do.

 

[LoneGunman]

And Claymore, please explain - as regards 'the "mushrooming" effect:

1. How can a building be naturally 'mushrooming' and shooting debris UPWARDS while allegedly falling down? (heard of 'physics'? 'gravity'? If something's falling DOWN, for debris to be 'going up' during it, requires an energy and direction that isnt available naturally to the collapsing object. Please explain the steel girders that were shot sideways from WTC towers, with such force that they travelled parallel to the ground and stuck into nearby buildings like arrows?

2. How can free falling debris in the air, be falling SLOWER, then the building that is collapsing?

(my inference, in case you fall to grasp this anomaly, is that its not really possible for something to be 'naturally' collapsing FASTER than concrete and heavy objects in freefall in the air alongside it.

That's like dropping a fat man and a feather, and watching the feather fall faster than the fat man.

Therefore its not a natural collapse, its an artificial demolition wave of some kind. A natural collapse isn't going to be faster than tons of freefall debris. If it is, its not a 'pancaking' collapse - as there's NO TIME for floors to collapse onto floors.

Its great that you want to devote so much energy to supporting the official story - eventually you might notice you're expending more energy to retain your mainstream supporting story, than you'd expend if you accepted the paradigm shift of 911 being an artificial piece of State Terror