A dangerous number of South African IT professionals are leaving

noxibox

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Finding good ones....that is difficult. We have been recruiting since end last year to form a new team and it's been tough going.
That is pretty much exactly what the article says.

Yes....and no. What happens is they get headhunted for ever bigger salaries. What you then get is CV's where the candidate spends time at a company for roughly 6-12 months before leaving.
This has a negative effect on their experience because they never get to see the results of their work, never learn from their mistakes (i.e never stick around long enough to maintain their work and learn what not to do next time)
You can definitely get to see results of work and learn from mistakes within 12 months.

So while salaries may appear on paper as going up especially for experienced folk and niche skills, it doesn’t cover the work life balance deficit nor the responsibility and level contribution one needs to make to keep things afloat.
You simply enforce that yourself. What's the company going to do if you insist reasonable levels of work and hours?

[qupte]Of course this has an additional impact that managers take less risk.. so if you come out of varsity without industry tooling experience you at a significant disadvantage. It appears like the industry now thinks everyone is an idiot for the most part and only trusts what you done ie treating a graduate like a code monkey.[/quote]
So nothing has changed? That pretty much describes the world of being a programmer at most companies at time in the history of programming.

Is there still a large corporate in RSA who hasn't outsourced their IT to India ?
Only someone who has never had any experience dealing with outsourcing would say something like this.

If you are white, management positions will not open up to you. Have a family member in a senior position at a very large corporate. They are not permitted to promote or employ anymore whites unless with specific approval to do so. Maybe work will be easy to come by through consulting. Don't expect to climb any career ladder.
It isn't really necessary to work for a large corporate. In fact it is often a bad idea for people who are really skilled in the field and want to be rewarded well, because corporates still tend to use the outdated model of managers being senior to and paid more than the engineers.
 

noxibox

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Problem is that old farts need not apply...
That's another issue. There are still companies using outdatd ideas like mandatory retirement. Not just in South Africa either.

And no one in SA has these skills?
They do, but are already employed. They'll also be picky who they work for. That means if some boring corporate is sending out job specs these guys are probably throwing them straight into the bin.
 

ToxicBunny

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A contractor at R500/h, which is hardly the upper end, is already at R1m/year. So "millions" doesn't sound that impressive.
Salaried employees get paid very differently from contractors..... Also a contractor being billed out at 500 per hour is generally earning maybe a quarter of that rate from the contracting house...
 

biometrics

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Salaried employees get paid very differently from contractors..... Also a contractor being billed out at 500 per hour is generally earning maybe a quarter of that rate from the contracting house...
1/4? Lol, no man. That's what they earn. Agencies add on top. Unless you mean a software house and drone employees.

Anyway, let's rephrase: a freelancer. No agency.
 

r00igev@@r

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They do, but are already employed. They'll also be picky who they work for. That means if some boring corporate is sending out job specs these guys are probably throwing them straight into the bin.
My experience is that corporates communicate poorly and won't hire for innovation.
 

Messugga

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Salaried employees get paid very differently from contractors..... Also a contractor being billed out at 500 per hour is generally earning maybe a quarter of that rate from the contracting house...
Yeah, no. No way. Maybe in some consulting firms, those are the sort of markups you'd see. When I was still doing consulting work, the firm did a lot of cross-subsidization so it was hard to get a real markup on a single individual. We did bill out people at two or three times their salary, but those were typically individuals in a team and we gave the client junior staff at or below cost.
With contracting houses, the markups definitely aren't that high. The contractors on my current team run at around 20-30% markup.
 

Cloner

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Tremendous opportunity for those willing to brave it out, Yet this IT resource is overlooked for cheaper resources from ASIA, and this article is not totally correct.
 

biometrics

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Tremendous opportunity for those willing to brave it out, Yet this IT resource is overlooked for cheaper resources from ASIA, and this article is not totally correct.
Are you skilled and unemployed? Or underpaid?
 

RoboJedi

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Those who talk about the opportunity, what language?

When ever i see job ads it list a string of various.
 

ToxicBunny

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Yeah, no. No way. Maybe in some consulting firms, those are the sort of markups you'd see. When I was still doing consulting work, the firm did a lot of cross-subsidization so it was hard to get a real markup on a single individual. We did bill out people at two or three times their salary, but those were typically individuals in a team and we gave the client junior staff at or below cost.
With contracting houses, the markups definitely aren't that high. The contractors on my current team run at around 20-30% markup.
Fair enough at the higher end... but the R500 per hour guys are generally lower end from consulting firms... and the markups are quite high...

But the point about Contracting Staff being paid differently to Salaried staff stands, and the high end guys who are salaried are earning in the millions (not R1m, but significantly more than that, R3m or more)...

Also Freelance guys who charge out at R500/h are not necessarily being contracted out for 8 full hours a day for the whole year.
 

Emjay

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It isn't really necessary to work for a large corporate. In fact it is often a bad idea for people who are really skilled in the field and want to be rewarded well, because corporates still tend to use the outdated model of managers being senior to and paid more than the engineers.
Managers in my company are fully qualified engineers with additional business qualifications. I don't think that is an outdated model, but rather a better approach.

Engineers are also paid based on their demand. The top level engineers on our team command salaries of 7 figures.
 
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noxibox

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Managers in my company are fully qualified engineers with additional business qualifications. I don't think that is an outdated model, but rather a better approach.
It's been recognised as a faulty model for sometime now. Some are even starting to recognise that technical people are more key to success than managers.
 

Emjay

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It's been recognised as a faulty model for sometime now. Some are even starting to recognise that technical people are more key to success than managers.
Would never work in my environment. Maybe in a small development team it will work nicely. In an environment with bigger teams with multiple priorities and across different platforms, it will not work. Someone should still be held accountable and have the final say.
 

DMNknight

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Would never work in my environment. Maybe in a small development team it will work nicely. In an environment with bigger teams with multiple priorities and across different platforms, it will not work. Someone should still be held accountable and have the final say.
My father told me this after getting his Engineering Degree and ended up being appointed to a position where he was eventually hiring engineers for the department.

Getting a degree is like getting an education on how a ship is built, why it was built that way, what to use to build a ship and how everything works together. However, the knowledge does not equate to skill in sailing the ship, even though the degree'd person has all the requisite knowledge.

The trademan who goes into the profession from school (or earlier) and likely follow in some kind of mentorship (father, uncle, brother etc). This person will be highly skilled in running the ship and have certain intuitive understandings about running the ship that an engineer will not have.

Pound for pound, a newbie artisan who has worked for the numbers of years the engineer has studied, is far more value out of the blocks than a university graduate. They have an eagerness to learn, a humility that comes with being a student all the time and often come up with solutions that work that don't fit within the framework of education.

That's not to say a degree is not valuable, because after a certain amount of time, a good engineer who unlearns certain aspects of education, removes the "ego" of having a degree, will eventually become the master of the tradesman because of the superior background of knowledge.
However, a Tradesman given the drive of continuous learning can equal a qualified engineer of equal years in most cases.

A good quote from "The Resident" - "Medical schools are great at teaching you many ways how to save a patient, what they don't teach you is how many ways there are to harm one"
I find this to be true of most education.

It is good that what works for your company, works. Doesn't mean it's a monosolution that will work always.
 
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GoB

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Would never work in my environment. Maybe in a small development team it will work nicely. In an environment with bigger teams with multiple priorities and across different platforms, it will not work. Someone should still be held accountable and have the final say.
You said that your managers are fully qualified engineers though.

Where the model is flawed from my experience is where the managers actually barely have a technical background or could not make it as a developer.
Also the managers who make decisions based on their limited technical experience from decades ago.
They become an obstacle to those who should have more influence.

Anyway to your point of quite a dramatic block on white male employment or promotion - this is happening.
I won't whine about how this affects me if it did, but it does create an unpleasant and unfair environment.
Whether it's reality or not, I value fairness in a work environment.
 

Emjay

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My father told me this after getting his Engineering Degree and ended up being appointed to a position where he was eventually hiring engineers for the department.

Getting a degree is like getting an education on how a ship is built, why it was built that way, what to use to build a ship and how everything works together. However, the knowledge does not equate to skill in sailing the ship, even though the degree'd person has all the requisite knowledge.

The trademan who goes into the profession from school (or earlier) and likely follow in some kind of mentorship (father, uncle, brother etc). This person will be highly skilled in running the ship and have certain intuitive understandings about running the ship that an engineer will not have.

Pound for pound, a newbie artisan who has worked for the numbers of years the engineer has studied, is far more value out of the blocks than a university graduate. They have an eagerness to learn, a humility that comes with being a student all the time and often come up with solutions that work that don't fit within the framework of education.

That's not to say a degree is not valuable, because after a certain amount of time, a good engineer who unlearns certain aspects of education, removes the "ego" of having a degree, will eventually become the master of the tradesman because of the superior background of knowledge.
However, a Tradesman given the drive of continuous learning can equal a qualified engineer of equal years in most cases.

A good quote from "The Resident" - "Doctor schools are great at teaching you many ways how to save a patient, what they don't teach you is how many ways there are to harm one"
I find this to be true of most education.

It is good that what works for your company, works. Doesn't mean it's a monosolution that will work always.
Of course different solutions work for different environments. The workplace is however not a democracy, and a certain level of oversight will always be required. How those decisions get made can be done in a number of different ways, all with varying levels of pros and cons.
 
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