A Muslim journey through Creationism and Evolution

SoulTax

Executive Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
6,121
Sounds like you wanna start your own religion,maybe you'll call it "atheism".There are two types of atheist and I have been fortunate enough to meet many of both types,those that see it as religion and want the whole world to convert because then they would feel better about themselves and they preach atheism therefore making it a religion(take for example this very thread how you have hijacked a thread related to Islam and evolution to further your atheist beliefs) and then you get actual atheists who realize "hey look I don't know whats out there and I don't wanna go follow religion x and y because they sound far fetched to me so I'll go on with my life and enjoy it until I find the truth if ever."

Its not a "CLAIM",I don't CLAIM to know the existence of GOD as a fact,I simply believe there is a GOD.Belief is personal not scientific or a claim or factual.I think thats what you are failing to grasp.
I am going to ignore the first paragraph of this post as it is evidently just meant to insult and is actually quite false in its presumptions. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here that we can actually keep this civil.

Anyway, it is never that cut and dry on the two types of Atheists out there. There are many types. Just like there are not only two types of Muslims. The terrorist bombers, and the westernised ones that do not enforce Shiria law to the letter.

As PorchRat has already said, no matter how much time and effort I spend on awakening people to Atheism, it is never a religion. Everyone is born Atheist, I am merely championing our return to the default state. The state where man made tales have not warped our understanding of the world around us.

As I have said many times before, I really don't mind what people believe in the privacy of their own minds or homes. But the moment that belief starts to impact on others in a negative way. Like not accepting Evolution in its entirety, simply because it conflicts with your religious tenets. Or not allowing Homosexuals to marry because your scripture opposes it, instead of analysing it with an objective mind and realising that it does you no harm. When it does these things, and is capable of doing these things and worse, then its questionable positive impact on the world is completely overshadowed by the undoubted negative impact that it has, and it should be opposed by anyone willing and able.
 

falcon786

Executive Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Messages
9,958
Terrorist bombings, Crusades, Inquisitions, Female Oppression, Scientific Oppression, Fake Faith Healings that suck the money out of honest yet gullible patrons, Stances on: Condoms as a preventative measure for aids, Gay Rights, Abortion, Genetic Experimentation, Stem cell research, Stoning Apostates.
The inability to find peace in the middle east because of differing religions, the list goes on.

All of these can be linked to Religion. Care to deny them?
Almost everyone of your examples above have an equivalent in history perpetrated by atheists and some even worst,human kind is like that,I can accept that,but if you want to claim that religion is the cause of it then please do QUANTIFY it with actual figures vs numbers of believers then research every act of violence caused by atheists vs numbers of atheists and lets see what you come up with.

I don't believe it but I think you've basically thumb sucked that notion with no valid scientific evidence.Unless you can get a proper complete study on this based on actual figures throughout the ages,you will have to conceded that in fact your statement was just an opinion and a very unscientific one at that.

If you ask me I can give you my opinion and I wont pretend to be able to quantify it with facts since I will admit from the onset that it is simply my opinion and not scientific,religion has given people direction and purpose,it has shown them the right path and given them the ability to step out of barbarism and into organized society.People were killing and harming each other without the need for religion and to believe otherwise would be naive.

Even chimpanzees organize into groups and go about massacring each other,its primate/human nature buddy,you're just looking to blame it on something and so religion came to the fore for you personally.

On that note maybe we should get this thread back on the topic,that humans came from primates what do you guys think?
 
Last edited:

Unhappy438

Honorary Master
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
19,772
Almost everyone of your examples above have an equivalent in history perpetrated by atheists and some even worst,human kind is like that,I can accept that,but if you want to claim that religion is the cause of it then please do QUANTIFY it with actual figures vs numbers of believers then research every act of violence caused by atheists vs numbers of atheists and lets see what you come up with.
The difference is all those acts were done in the name of religion, im unaware of atrocities done in the name of atheism.
 

SoulTax

Executive Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
6,121
Almost everyone of your examples above have an equivalent in history perpetrated by atheists and some even worst,human kind is like that,I can accept that,but if you want to claim that religion is the cause of it then please do QUANTIFY it with actual figures vs numbers of believers then research every act of violence caused by atheists vs numbers of atheists and lets see what you come up with.

I don't believe it but I think you've basically thumb sucked that notion with no valid scientific evidence.Unless you can get a proper complete study on this based on actual figures throughout the ages,you will have to conceded that in fact your statement was just an opinion and a very unscientific one at that.

If you ask me I can give you my opinion and I wont pretend to be able to quantify it with facts since I will admit from the onset that it is simply my opinion and not scientific,religion has given people direction and purpose,it has shown them the right path and given them the ability to step out of barbarism and into organized society.People were killing and harming each other without the need for religion and to believe otherwise would be naive.

Even chimpanzees organize into groups and go about massacring each other,its human nature buddy,you're just looking to blame it on something and so religion came to the fore for you personally.
Sure it is human nature in many ways. Actually that is wrong, it is nature in many ways, because we are simply the most intelligent form of nature on this planet, evolved over millions of years to this state.

I challenge you to find those equivalents in history of Atheists perpetrating these acts. There may be one or two genuine examples here or there. But no other institution in the world, other than religion, can lay claim to the extreme level of mass genocide and violence over the last 2000 years. I am supported by facts on this. Your deflection may be your opinion, but my examples are facts. Sorry to be so blunt and burst your bubble buddy.

And you just have to look today, in the middle east, where two religions are fighting it out for land. Without religion that particular fight would not be happening. So it is a complete and utter fact that religion is showing a negative impact there. In modern times. Where you claim that religion enlightened people and pulled them out of barbarism, yet the most barbaric things happening today are in the name of religion. Stoning rape victims that will not marry their rapist. To name another.
 

falcon786

Executive Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Messages
9,958
I am going to ignore the first paragraph of this post as it is evidently just meant to insult and is actually quite false in its presumptions. I am giving you the benefit of the doubt here that we can actually keep this civil.
It was just my observation of your thoughts in that particular instance,not meant to be insulting just trying to get you to think about it differently,apologies if it came out as insulting,yes we can keep it civil.:)
 

porchrat

Honorary Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
30,104
As PorchRat has already said, no matter how much time and effort I spend on awakening people to Atheism, it is never a religion. Everyone is born Atheist, I am merely championing our return to the default state. The state where man made tales have not warped our understanding of the world around us.

As I have said many times before, I really don't mind what people believe in the privacy of their own minds or homes. But the moment that belief starts to impact on others in a negative way. Like not accepting Evolution in its entirety, simply because it conflicts with your religious tenets. Or not allowing Homosexuals to marry because your scripture opposes it, instead of analysing it with an objective mind and realising that it does you no harm. When it does these things, and is capable of doing these things and worse, then its questionable positive impact on the world is completely overshadowed by the undoubted negative impact that it has, and it should be opposed by anyone willing and able.
I don't agree that religion should be "opposed by anyone willing and able". I will only oppose it when it does harm. It doesn't always do harm.

This is like banning cars because some people run others over with them.

EDIT: having said that when it comes to thing like homophobia then it does usually do harm. I don't think anyone would deny that religion fuels homophobia.
 
Last edited:

falcon786

Executive Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Messages
9,958
The difference is all those acts were done in the name of religion, im unaware of atrocities done in the name of atheism.
Yeah and when chimpanzees massacre each other in whose name is that?The tree I'm sure.......
 

SoulTax

Executive Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
6,121
The difference is all those acts were done in the name of religion, im unaware of atrocities done in the name of atheism.
That famous saying springs to mind. Bad people will do bad things, Good will do Good, but if you want to get good people to do bad things, for that you need religion.

As you say, those people did not do bad things in the name of atheism. The fact that they had no religion was merely circumstantial. But those things that I listed are not done by people who happen to be religious, they are done by people because they are/were religious and they believe that they have God on their side. They actively state that themselves, so this cannot be refuted with mere opinions, it is a fact.
 

SoulTax

Executive Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
6,121
Yeah and when chimpanzees massacre each other in whose name is that?The tree I'm sure.......
It doesn't have to be in anythings name. It can be self serving, as nature dictates. I am not quite sure where you are going with this.
 

Unhappy438

Honorary Master
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
19,772
Yeah and when chimpanzees massacre each other in whose name is that?The tree I'm sure.......
Im not sure how this is supposed to be defending your argument? People clearly commit atrocities in the name of religion, they deny gay marriage and cite the bible as the reason. Are you now trying to say its actually because they are acting like chimpanzees? Your comment makes no sense.
 

SoulTax

Executive Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
6,121
I don't agree that religion should be "opposed by anyone willing and able". I will only oppose it when it does harm. It doesn't always do harm.

This is like banning cars because some people run others over with them.

EDIT: having said that when it comes to thing like homophobia then it does usually do harm. I don't think anyone would deny that religion fuels homophobia.
I don't think that cars and religion are quite the same thing in this instance. Assuming for this example that the car has no mechanical defects, it has no active responsibility in the killing of someone. However, if the car itself somehow spoke to you and enraged you to kill the heathen pedestrians, even if only 10% of the drivers were effected by this. It would be enough that we would need to scrap cars and find another less consciously destructive form of transportation.
 

falcon786

Executive Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Messages
9,958
Sure it is human nature in many ways. Actually that is wrong, it is nature in many ways, because we are simply the most intelligent form of nature on this planet, evolved over millions of years to this state.

I challenge you to find those equivalents in history of Atheists perpetrating these acts. There may be one or two genuine examples here or there. But no other institution in the world, other than religion, can lay claim to the extreme level of mass genocide and violence over the last 2000 years. I am supported by facts on this. Your deflection may be your opinion, but my examples are facts. Sorry to be so blunt and burst your bubble buddy.

And you just have to look today, in the middle east, where two religions are fighting it out for land. Without religion that particular fight would not be happening. So it is a complete and utter fact that religion is showing a negative impact there. In modern times. Where you claim that religion enlightened people and pulled them out of barbarism, yet the most barbaric things happening today are in the name of religion.
You haven't burst my bubble because you haven't presented any facts yet.You just claim to have them lol again very unscientific buddy.You have not quantified anything in your posts.I thought you want proof of everything or else its null and void?Wheres your facts?Show them to us.

Stoning rape victims that will not marry their rapist. To name another.
Oh please stop reading tabloids.Please show us the proof where a court of law had ruled this had happened.The modimolle monsters maintain until now that they were innocent so I guess you believe them over the court also?:wtf:At this rate your'e pulling things out from thin air it seems.Where oh where is the science/facts/proof.
 

falcon786

Executive Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Messages
9,958
It doesn't have to be in anythings name. It can be self serving, as nature dictates. I am not quite sure where you are going with this.
Self serving people don't always state their intentions they can use religion as an excuse.Those types of people are bad by default the fact that they were "religious" or claimed to be is circumstantial.Its swings both ways buddy.
 

falcon786

Executive Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Messages
9,958
I don't think that cars and religion are quite the same thing in this instance. Assuming for this example that the car has no mechanical defects, it has no active responsibility in the killing of someone. However, if the car itself somehow spoke to you and enraged you to kill the heathen pedestrians, even if only 10% of the drivers were effected by this. It would be enough that we would need to scrap cars and find another less consciously destructive form of transportation.
Maybe the person driving misinterpreted the usage of the car then what?Scrap cars since it does seem that millions of people don't know how to use them properly hence accidents.
 

Unhappy438

Honorary Master
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
19,772
Self serving people don't always state their intentions they can use religion as an excuse.Those types of people are bad by default the fact that they were "religious" or claimed to be is circumstantial.Its swings both ways buddy.
So you are sort of agreeing with us that religion is used as a reason for committing atrocities. Now i want to know what other excuse is their for denying gay marriage besides religious scripture?
 

SoulTax

Executive Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
6,121
You haven't burst my bubble because you haven't presented any facts yet.You just claim to have them lol again very unscientific buddy.You have not quantified anything in your posts.I thought you want proof of everything or else its null and void?Wheres your facts?Show them to us.

Oh please stop reading tabloids.Please show us the proof where a court of law had ruled this had happened.The modimolle monsters maintain until now that they were innocent so I guess you believe them over the court also?:wtf:At this rate your'e pulling things out from thin air it seems.Where oh where is the science/facts/proof.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda

You will notice that all of them have religion in common. If you want links to all the others that I posted, a little wiki or google searching will get you plenty. But I have given 3. Now either refute them or find me Atheist equivalents in the name of atheism or stop this incessant claiming that I have no proof. All those things that I linked are widely known facts. Just like I don't need to link to an article on gravity just to have my claim of gravity taken seriously. Common knowledge is what keeps debates from being an endless deconstruction of each and every claim down to the proof of the language you are using to make that claim.

If you do not posses the common/general knowledge in this area, then I suggest an evening of Google and wikipedia to get yourself up to speed.
 

Unhappy438

Honorary Master
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
19,772
Maybe the person driving misinterpreted the usage of the car then what?Scrap cars since it does seem that millions of people don't know how to use them properly hence accidents.
The fact remains is that certain people have used religion to commit atrocities , you can say they have misinterpreted the scripture or they arent a true muslim/christian etc, however they can also turn around and say the exact same thing about you. Religion has so many variations and inconsistencies that no single party can claim they have the "one true" interpretation of scriputure.
 

SoulTax

Executive Member
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
6,121
Self serving people don't always state their intentions they can use religion as an excuse.Those types of people are bad by default the fact that they were "religious" or claimed to be is circumstantial.Its swings both ways buddy.
No, they did it in the name of religion, and only got the immense numbers of followers that they did, because those followers thought that it was their religious duty. The crusades were not about killing people for giggles, it was about killing people of another religion and reclaiming the holy land. Sure there were side objectives in Politics and Economics that possibly drove some of the other self serving leaders to join ranks. But most of the people went there because they were told by the catholic church that it was their holy duty.
 
Top