A Muslim journey through Creationism and Evolution

greenbean32

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According to my little knowledge, that is what the God of the Quran also do. Reward the good with good and the bad with bad . Just you have to wait for the reward, however sometimes like in the Quran/Bible it was paid in cash.
 

porchrat

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In my home I am god of the Internet.

Everyone has free and open Internet (free will) until the evil one (late teen visitor nephew) hogged all the bandwidth with selfish downloading).

After counseling yielded little positive results, the evil one was throttled to 64kb, the good ones are not throttled.

I am a good and responsible god of the home Internet
This analogy would be valid if the deity actually stepped in to stop the evil in this life then way you stepped in to stop the bandwidth hog destroying everyone's enjoyment of the Internet.

While you actively stopped the abuse, the deities of the various religions don't. They allow the rape and murder to continue. They don't step in and stop it despite having the power to do so. I must conclude that you, in directly acting to stop what you saw as abuse, albeit a minor form of abuse, demonstrated that you are morally superior to the deities described by religions... the Abrahamic ones anyway.


According to my little knowledge, that is what the God of the Quran also do. Reward the good with good and the bad with bad . Just you have to wait for the reward, however sometimes like in the Quran/Bible it was paid in cash.
I disagree. If you have to wait for the reward/punishment then it isn't the same thing at all. In the analogy given the punishment happened quickly within the physical world.
 

AfricanTech

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This analogy would be valid if the deity actually stepped in to stop the evil in this life then way you stepped in to stop the bandwidth hog destroying everyone's enjoyment of the Internet.

While you actively stopped the abuse, the deities of the various religions don't. They allow the rape and murder to continue. They don't step in and stop it despite having the power to do so. I must conclude that you, in directly acting to stop what you saw as abuse, albeit a minor form of abuse, demonstrated that you are morally superior to the deities described by religions... the Abrahamic ones anyway.



I disagree. If you have to wait for the reward/punishment then it isn't the same thing at all. In the analogy given the punishment happened quickly within the physical world.
Yup, precisely my point.

A living deity who is all powerful should be able to do on a universal scale what I am able to do on a local scale.

The reward / punishment in the afterlife is a promise with no ability to verify.
 

wayfarer

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Thanks for the insightfull post Wayfarer ,I have not really given evolution much thought ,but this post really put alot of things in perspective.
Keep up the good work.:)
Thanks for your comments. I am glad one of my posts was useful to someone.

@African Tech ,would you not contradict yourself if you gave free will and then want to intervene when you see one or more is not good.
Why give free will in the first place? ,why not create all ten like angels with only inclanation to good.
Good point. Free will will be pointless. God commands against evil, but when we will it, it is God, through his Power that, enacts it (We are responsible for willing/choosing/intending). However, He is the final adjudicator and will institute ultimate justice.

So does He never intervene, ever? Because if He does then that negates free will, as you say.

No miracles then, unfortunately. And when did He give us free will, before or after the tales in the Quran, Bible and Torah? Because there's pretty clear intervention claimed there.
Conflating power with will is a common error. If you read the post which you claim to have read, you would know that God enacts every single action in every single place - not only the miracles. We have free will, but not absolute power.

In my home I am god of the Internet.

Everyone has free and open Internet (free will) until the evil one (late teen visitor nephew) hogged all the bandwidth with selfish downloading).

After counseling yielded little positive results, the evil one was throttled to 64kb, the good ones are not throttled.

I am a good and responsible god of the home Internet
Exactly. God grants everyone free will in this world. Some misuse this free will. God provides counseling through his prophets, saints and Books. It has been reported that Barnabas records Jesus Christ saying:

Blessed be the holy name of God, who with mercy looked upon his creatures, and therefore sent them his holy prophets, that they might walk in truth and righteousness before him...

God grants respite, and the opportunity for self-correction, self-reform and self-disciplining. We are challenged to willingly strive to fulfill purpose. After counseling yields little positive results, the reprobates are throttled to alienation from Him (excluding themselves from His Mercy), while the righteous behold the Beauty and Greatness of His Countenance.
 
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porchrat

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Exactly. God grants everyone free will in this world. Some misuse this free will. God provides counseling through his prophets, saints and Books. It has been reported that Barnabas said:
A book that arguably contains some morally questionable content.


God grants respite, and the opportunity for self-correction, self-reform and self-disciplining. We are challenged to willingly strive to fulfill purpose. After counseling yields little positive results, the reprobates are devestatingly throttled to alienation from Him, while the righteous behold the Beauty and Greatness of His Countenance.
Again this is not comparable to the Internet example. There swift and measurable action was taken against the transgressor by the one who has the power to prevent harm while in your religion this doesn't occur.

In your religion Al basically sits back and says "OK, I'm going to let you finish raping that woman and the next 50 or so after that but when you are done whooo boy am I going to punish you!". If I had the power to stop a rape I would. Having the power to stop a rape and instead doing nothing is, IMO, immoral.
 

Sodan

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Disclaimer upfront: I'm no expert (in fact, I know very little about religions in general), so this is probably wrong, but here we go anyway.

If, as religions claim, there is a Hereafter, and that is the True Life (i.e. this life is but a "testing ground", so to speak, in which human souls are tested), then I don't really see anything wrong with permitting all kinds bad things to happen in this "testing ground" (really, I need a better term for this). I figure that if you're prevented from doing wrong, how could you possibly be tested?

In the case of throttling someone's internet access, we could say that that person was "raping" the internet connection. God of the Household stepped in and Throttled the person. But guess what, the person had already committed the "rape".

But let's say the person was somehow mindcontrolled (or whatever) such that s/he could not make excessive use of the internet connection. How would you test his/her level of self-restraint? IMHO, you wouldn't be able to.

In fact, a place where no-one does any wrong very much reminds of what the religious folk refer to as Heaven (except we have accidents and illnesses here, but I mean besides that).

My conclusion is that (specifically wayfarer's) description of God and the Islamic beliefs, and the reality of atrocious deeds on Earth appear to be internally consistent. Feel free educate me if I am wrong.

ps: sorry for rambling, I am at work and am quickly scribbling this
 

porchrat

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Disclaimer upfront: I'm no expert (in fact, I know very little about religions in general), so this is probably wrong, but here we go anyway.

If, as religions claim, there is a Hereafter, and that is the True Life (i.e. this life is but a "testing ground", so to speak, in which human souls are tested), then I don't really see anything wrong with permitting all kinds bad things to happen in this "testing ground" (really, I need a better term for this). I figure that if you're prevented from doing wrong, how could you possibly be tested?

In the case of throttling someone's internet access, we could say that that person was "raping" the internet connection. God of the Household stepped in and Throttled the person. But guess what, the person had already committed the "rape".

But let's say the person was somehow mindcontrolled (or whatever) such that s/he could not make excessive use of the internet connection. How would you test his/her level of self-restraint? IMHO, you wouldn't be able to.

In fact, a place where no-one does any wrong very much reminds of what the religious folk refer to as Heaven (except we have accidents and illnesses here, but I mean besides that).

My conclusion is that (specifically wayfarer's) description of God and the Islamic beliefs, and the reality of atrocious deeds on Earth appear to be internally consistent. Feel free educate me if I am wrong.

ps: sorry for rambling, I am at work and am quickly scribbling this
A deity that is omnipotent and omniscient would surely be able to know the intent of the transgressor and then step in to prevent the act. There is therefore no need for mind control and the "testing" can still easily occur without the actual deed needing to occur. Heck even our own mortal legal systems are able to demonstrate intent to commit a crime, prevent it, and then introduce penalties. Sure we aren't morally corrupt enough to punish someone for eternity but if we humans can achieve something that simple surely a deity can.

Instead the deity has the power to stop the act, knows the intention of the transgressor, but then sits back and does nothing to stop the rape instead mumbling about punishing that individual later.

Again, to me, if you have the power to stop a rape, knowing full well that stopping it poses no risk of harm to you, and you instead choose to do nothing then you are immoral.
 
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OrbitalDawn

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Conflating power with will is a common error. If you read the post which you claim to have read, you would know that God enacts every single action in every single place - not only the miracles. We have free will, but not absolute power.
Apparently you haven't read what I wrote properly, either. I told you those replies had nothing to do with free will.

This current post, however, does. I was responding to greenbean, and following his reasoning. But okay, you say God enables our will to be carried out, because He has absolute power and we don't. So does He always enact what we will, or does He sometimes decide not to, thus intervening? On what basis does He do this? Should I brace myself for a 'mysterious ways' answer?

Given the reward/punishment angle. Does He punish someone who's will he 'enacted' and who subsequently committed an evil act? What about people who will evil, but who's actions are not 'enacted'? Do they not get punished?

How can you not see how it makes our 'free' will essentially pointless, as it's arbitrarily decided by God what we can and can't do anyway.

Is our will not also ultimately determined by Him, anyway?
 

greenbean32

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So does He never intervene, ever? Because if He does then that negates free will, as you say.

No miracles then, unfortunately. And when did He give us free will, before or after the tales in the Quran, Bible and Torah? Because there's pretty clear intervention claimed there.
Strangely it seems ,you answer your own question.
That for me is the intervention and miracle/s.

Free will with only restrictions on evil would be pointless ,however it does not say there is not any consequences.

On the internet comparison side ,it would be like saying this is a "true" uncapped product ,but you get throttled at x amount of gigs.
 

OrbitalDawn

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Strangely it seems ,you answer your own question.
That for me is the intervention and miracle/s.
So He does intervene then, negating free will, as per your reasoning?

greenbean32 said:
Free will with only restrictions on evil would be pointless ,however it does not say there is not any consequences.
Consequences for who? Do you mean punishment? If someone shoots someone else in the head, you're saying there will be consequences for that person, right? He'll get punished for it. Well that doesn't stop the person from getting shot in the head and dying. So how does it help him?
 

greenbean32

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God grants respite, and the opportunity for self-correction, self-reform and self-disciplining. We are challenged to willingly strive to fulfill purpose. After counseling yields little positive results, the reprobates are devestatingly throttled to alienation from Him, while the righteous behold the Beauty and Greatness of His Countenance.
Much better said, than I ever could have.

However if you want to interpret " that " intervention as infringement on your free will , you are free to .:D

I don't however.
 

AfricanTech

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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand...... We're back at belief.

Which requires only that you believe.

Ouroboros
 

Sodan

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A deity that is omnipotent and omniscient would surely be able to know the intent of the transgressor and then step in to prevent the act. There is therefore no need for mind control and the "testing" can still easily occur without the actual deed needing to occur.
So if this life is meant to be a test, what you're saying is that we should just completely skip this life, move on to the next, and receive our rewards/punishment for deeds we didn't actually do?

Heck even our own mortal legal systems are able to demonstrate intent to commit a crime, prevent it, and then introduce penalties. Sure we aren't morally corrupt enough to punish someone for eternity
Though we can punish them for the rest of their lives (which is pretty much the same that the deity is doing... "for the rest of their (After) lives") , or even terminate it for good.

but if we humans can achieve something that simple surely a deity can.
Again, without even ever existing on this Earth, we get punished/rewarded for stuff we didn't actually do.
EDIT: consider that many of us don't believe that any deity exists. How many of us do you think will believe that this deity is correct, i.e. that we actually would have enacted whatever deeds we are alleged of? Wouldn't our (atheistically & agnostically - don't know if these are real words) inclined minds want... wait for it... wait for it... PROOF?!

Instead the deity has the power to stop the act, knows the intention of the transgressor, but then sits back and does nothing to stop the rape instead mumbling about punishing that individual later.
Like when you write an exam, and you're about to make a mistake, your lecturer should stop you and instead tell you what the right answer is?

Again, to me, if you have the power to stop a rape, knowing full well that stopping it poses no risk of harm to you, and you instead choose to do nothing then you are immoral.
Only if you believe this life to be all there is, and not a test for some After life...thing (my vocabulary fails me, sorry). The religious folk, however, do not believe this (or so I understand), and within their belief system, it appears logical to me that their deity would permit the exam-takers to answer questions incorrectly, sometimes even very, very incorrectly.
 
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porchrat

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So if this life is meant to be a test, what you're saying is that we should just completely skip this life, move on to the next, and receive our rewards/punishment for deeds we didn't actually do?
That wasn't what I was saying but that is a question that invariably pops up in the back of my mind whenever people try to tell me that their deity knows everything including knowing, in advance, the choices you are going to make in this life.

What I was saying is that before the rape actually occurs sure an omniscient deity would, at that point, be capable of discerning the intent of the transgressor and at that point a kind and loving entity, a good entity, should feel morally obligated to, knowing that a rape is about to occur, step in and stop the rape from occurring.


Though we can punish them for the rest of their lives (which is pretty much the same that the deity is doing... "for the rest of their (After) lives") , or even terminate it for good.
Be honest. The rest of your life is not the same thing as eternity mate.


Again, without even ever existing on this Earth, we get punished/rewarded for stuff we didn't actually do.
EDIT: consider that many of us don't believe that any deity exists. How many of us do you think will believe that this deity is correct, i.e. that we actually would have enacted whatever deeds we are alleged of? Wouldn't our (atheistically & agnostically - don't know if these are real words) inclined minds want... wait for it... wait for it... PROOF?!
This is all just a thought exercise to me dude.

What you would or would not have believed, and what actions would have flown from that, would be known by a truly omniscient deity. That is not my point but it is one to consider I suppose and it is interesting that you brought it up.


Like when you write an exam, and you're about to make a mistake, your lecturer should stop you and instead tell you what the right answer is?
For fscks sake did you just attempt to compare making a mistake in an exam to rape?!?!? :wtf:

Obviously rape results in one person inflicting horrific harm on another human being and making a mistake in an exam does not. For that reason the arguments for whether or not someone is morally obligated to hop in and prevent an error in an exam are nowhere close to the arguments involved in stopping a rape. Jeepers man.


Only if you believe this life to be all there is, and not a test for some After life...thing (my vocabulary fails me, sorry).
No that doesn't change it at all really. If you are morally good you should want to prevent all the suffering you possibly can when you have an opportunity to do so (I suppose this is debatable and dependant upon the harm it is going to do to you but "harm" is not something an Abrahamic deity need concern itself with). If you have the power to prevent suffering and instead you do nothing then you are, through your inaction, agreeing with suffering. That doesn't strike me as a very moral stance to take.


The religious folk, however, do not believe this (or so I understand), and within their belief system, it appears logical to me that their deity would permit the exam-takers to answer questions incorrectly, sometimes even very, very incorrectly.
Again please don't compare exam questions to rape. To do so is a tremendous slap in the face to all of those who have had to deal with the pain associated with that terrible act.
 
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Unhappy438

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Yeah, making comparisons between rape and exam questions is a very strange one indeed.
 

Sodan

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What I was saying is that before the rape actually occurs sure an omniscient deity would, at that point, be capable of discerning the intent of the transgressor
I think the deity is able to know way before that, but wayfarer can enlighten us here.

and at that point a kind and loving entity, a good entity, should feel morally obligated to, knowing that a rape is about to occur, step in and stop the rape from occurring.
And I agree with you 100%, if there was no such thing as an After life in the religious system.

Be honest. The rest of your life is not the same thing as eternity mate.
Again, agreed. The rest of one's Earthly life is only analogous to the rest of one's After life, but it is definitely not the same thing.

This is all just a thought exercise to me dude.
And yet when taken into account, it seems quite necessary that the deity provides us with proof of our actions by actually permitting us to perform them (both good and bad actions).

What you would or would not have believed, and what actions would have flown from that, would be known by a truly omniscient deity.
Agreed.

That is not my point but it is one to consider I suppose and it is interesting that you brought it up.
So what alternative proof do you think the deity should provide of our alleged actions?

For fscks sake did you just attempt to compare making a mistake in an exam to rape?!?!? :wtf:
The first being a simple Earthly test, and, as per the religious folk, the latter being a test on a far greater scale. I know I suck at fleshing out analogies/metaphors. I'm sorry.

Obviously rape results in one person inflicting horrific harm on another human being and making a mistake in an exam does not.
What is not so obvious is that being able to inflict horrific harm on another human is part of the Greater Test (or whatever you want to call), but is not part of an Earthly exam.

For that reason the arguments for whether or not someone is morally obligated to hop in and prevent an error in an exam are nowhere close to the arguments involved in stopping a rape. Jeepers man.

Don't get me wrong. I fully agree that raping someone is a horrific thing. But putting emotions aside for a moment and thinking only logically about this:

raping someone would in all probability lower your score on your Spiritual Test (really need a better name for this), and making a mistake in an exam would probably lower your Earthly test score.

That's the analogy I was aiming for. Again, apologies for not fleshing it out.

No that doesn't change it at all really. If you are morally good you should want to prevent all the suffering you possibly can when you have an opportunity to do so (I suppose this is debatable and dependant upon the harm it is going to do to you but "harm" is not something an Abrahamic deity need concern itself with).
Sounds a lot like what Heaven is sometimes described as being. And, from my understanding, this is not that Heaven. This is the testing ground.

If you have the power to prevent suffering and instead you do nothing then you are, through your inaction, agreeing with suffering. That doesn't strike me as a very moral stance to take.
Agreed, in the absence of an After life.

Again please don't compare exam questions to rape. To do so is a tremendous slap in the face to all of those who have had to deal with the pain associated with that terrible act.
Sincere apologies for not fleshing out my analogies. I'm sure you can see the relevance can easily be seen once emotion is set aside.
 
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AfricanTech

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Goodness, what torturous twisting above.

'Free Will is a divine gift' is used as a 'get out of jail free' card.

It essentially allows the Deity to pull a Pontius Pilate with no concrete, observable evidence for the consequences of the abuse of this 'great gift' - just the promise that you will be punished later.

Wayfarer, your quotation in this regard does not address the essential problem that God condones (through inaction) the abuse of free will. Books (especially ones that don't come with divine updates every 10 years or so) and prophets are pretty weak tools to curb the abuse of free will.

I'm not even going to start down the road of an all powerful being that allows genocide to take place.

Again, tell me that religion allows you to create an accessible framework within which large numbers of people can be socialized into being good, caring, and responsible - I'll buy some of that - just don't tell me there is an all-loving, all-powerful deity at the heart of it.
 

porchrat

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And I agree with you 100%, if there was no such thing as an After life in the religious system.

...

Agreed, in the absence of an After life.
I don't understand at all why there being an afterlife is relevant to the desire to prevent suffering being moral and the desire to allow suffering to occur being immoral.

Could you please expand on that.


I think it is tied to this?:
So what alternative proof do you think the deity should provide of our alleged actions?
Are you saying the omniscient deity needs some sort of hard evidence to convict us with and so that is why it allows the suffering to occur?... like in a trial?

This deity is omniscient and omnipotent. If that sort of being truly exists then it likely needs no alternative proof save its knowledge of my intent. It has both the knowledge and means to judge me.
 

Swa

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According to my little knowledge, that is what the God of the Quran also do. Reward the good with good and the bad with bad . Just you have to wait for the reward, however sometimes like in the Quran/Bible it was paid in cash.
This comment says it best.

I disagree. If you have to wait for the reward/punishment then it isn't the same thing at all. In the analogy given the punishment happened quickly within the physical world.
If it was instant there wouldn't be free will. AfricanTech actually describes the situation perfectly without realising it. God allows us to do as we please in this world and it is this freedom that ultimately decides our fate. If God stepped in with every infraction we wouldn't have this freedom. Sometimes we abuse this freedom however and the impact on the freedom of others is just too much so God steps in.

In AT's example one person was making things impossible for the rest after lots of counseling and second chances so he steps in. In this case it is for the common good of everyone else. But how many of the others also did the same at times? If he proactively stepped in and made it impossible then everyone would only be able to act in a way he approved. That would in effect restrict everyone's freedom.

Are you saying the omniscient deity needs some sort of hard evidence to convict us with and so that is why it allows the suffering to occur?... like in a trial?

This deity is omniscient and omnipotent. If that sort of being truly exists then it likely needs no alternative proof save its knowledge of my intent. It has both the knowledge and means to judge me.
Did you see Minority Report?
 
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