A Muslim journey through Creationism and Evolution

Splinter

Honorary Master
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
23,408
. God allows us to do as we please in this world and it is this freedom that ultimately decides our fate. If God stepped in with every infraction we wouldn't have this freedom. Sometimes we abuse this freedom however and the impact on the freedom of others is just too much so God steps in.
Bolded parts are a bit of a contradiction. Ignoring that; how do you know this? Is it in the bible, or did you just make it up? Having said that; give one example of where god stepped in????
 

AfricanTech

Honorary Master
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
34,701
This comment says it best.


If it was instant there wouldn't be free will. AfricanTech actually describes the situation perfectly without realising it. God allows us to do as we please in this world and it is this freedom that ultimately decides our fate. If God stepped in with every infraction we wouldn't have this freedom. Sometimes we abuse this freedom however and the impact on the freedom of others is just too much so God steps in.

In AT's example one person was making things impossible for the rest after lots of counseling and second chances so he steps in. In this case it is for the common good of everyone else. But how many of the others also did the same at times? If he proactively stepped in and made it impossible then everyone would only be able to act in a way he approved. That would in effect restrict everyone's freedom.


Did you see Minority Report?
Now that's a hijack if I ever saw one.

Sheesh!
 

AfricanTech

Honorary Master
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
34,701
Yeah.

I described a scenario that shows that the 'free will' argument is a copout. The fact that you have free will does not prevent an omni from preventing abusers from getting away with the abuse of that free will.
 

Swa

Honorary Master
Joined
May 4, 2012
Messages
23,841
Yeah.

I described a scenario that shows that the 'free will' argument is a copout. The fact that you have free will does not prevent an omni from preventing abusers from getting away with the abuse of that free will.
Except your example shows the opposite. People can have their free will and only the extreme abusers of it are reigned in.
 

wayfarer

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
1,623
Have you apologized to children you misled with the creationist stuff?
I did not mislead anyone with creationism. All I said was that neither creationism nor evolution contradicts the Quran, and that the then-present dominant scholarly position was that man did not evolve. My non-expert opinion is that evolution is a historical reality for all life. I still do not have absolute certainty and perfect knowledge in this, and that is why, despite the fact that I disagree with it, I do respect positions held by individuals such as Swa.
 

AfricanTech

Honorary Master
Joined
Mar 19, 2010
Messages
34,701
Except your example shows the opposite. People can have their free will and only the extreme abusers of it are reigned in.
Except that they're not.

Abusers of free will get away with it all the time.

Ergo, there is no omni regulating its use

There is no omni
 

falcon786

Executive Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2011
Messages
9,958
I hear alot of talk about victims of rape and mass genocide being allowed to suffer,and while I hear you the reality of belief is that we do belief as per swa's metaphor this life is an exam(although rape and murder would probably be like writing the answer to question intentionally incorrectly rather than as a mistake so big negative marking there;)).

The victims of these crimes are actually the benefactors because most of their sins will be forgiven due to the suffering caused on them during the exam,I'm guessing the more the suffering the bigger percentage of the exam gets marked correctly even though it was incorrect because hey somebody interrupted your exam session.

Wayfarer's name alone shows that we believe this world is just one huge test and we are all but wayfarers going through it.Its much more grand and intense than your board exam though.
 
Last edited:

OrbitalDawn

Ulysses Everett McGill
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
42,279
Swa said:
God allows us to do as we please in this world and it is this freedom that ultimately decides our fate. If God stepped in with every infraction we wouldn't have this freedom. Sometimes we abuse this freedom however and the impact on the freedom of others is just too much so God steps in.
Except your example shows the opposite. People can have their free will and only the extreme abusers of it are reigned in.
So who are the 'extreme abusers' of their freedom? Hitler? Stalin? Took a while for them to be reined in. In fact, other humans had to rein them in. And were only able to do so after millions upons millions of people were killed.

What is the threshold for 'abuse of freedom' one has to cross before God says 'no no, this won't do'? And how do we know when it was God that intervened and not other humans? Remember, He supposedly knows exactly who these 'abusers of freedom' are, when they will be 'abusing their freedom', and to what extent they will be 'impacting the freedoms of others'. Yet He chooses to not stop it before it happens.

Do people who do worse get punished worse? Or are all sins equal, e.g. a fraudster gets the same punishment as a mass murderer?

What about someone with a brain tumour that causes him to have violent outbursts? Does God intervene to stop them from infringing on the freedom of others, because evidence suggests not. He's not acting of his own free volition, yet he severely impacts the freedom of others. Why are they not reined in?
 

senyetse

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2013
Messages
791
So who are the 'extreme abusers' of their freedom? Hitler? Stalin? Took a while for them to be reined in. In fact, other humans had to rein them in. And were only able to do so after millions upons millions of people were killed.

What is the threshold for 'abuse of freedom' one has to cross before God says 'no no, this won't do'? And how do we know when it was God that intervened and not other humans? Remember, He supposedly knows exactly who these 'abusers of freedom' are, when they will be 'abusing their freedom', and to what extent they will be 'impacting the freedoms of others'. Yet He chooses to not stop it before it happens.

Do people who do worse get punished worse? Or are all sins equal, e.g. a fraudster gets the same punishment as a mass murderer?

What about someone with a brain tumour that causes him to have violent outbursts? Does God intervene to stop them from infringing on the freedom of others, because evidence suggests not. He's not acting of his own free volition, yet he severely impacts the freedom of others. Why are they not reined in?
10 believers will give you 10 different answers...
 

senyetse

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 26, 2013
Messages
791
What about someone with a brain tumour that causes him to have violent outbursts? Does God intervene to stop them from infringing on the freedom of others, because evidence suggests not. He's not acting of his own free volition, yet he severely impacts the freedom of others. Why are they not reined in?
Same goes for serial killers/psychopaths - most suffer from some mental illness and are declared insane. They usually murder several people before they are captured - by other people.
 

wayfarer

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
1,623
I hear alot of talk about victims of rape and mass genocide being allowed to suffer,and while I hear you the reality of belief is that we do belief as per swa's metaphor this life is an exam(although rape and murder would probably be like writing the answer to question intentionally incorrectly rather than as a mistake so big negative marking there;)).

The victims of these crimes are actually the benefactors because most of their sins will be forgiven due to the suffering caused on them during the exam,I'm guessing the more the suffering the bigger percentage of the exam gets marked correctly even though it was incorrect because hey somebody interrupted your exam session.

Wayfarer's name alone shows that we believe this world is just one huge test and we are all but wayfarers going through it.Its much more grand and intense than your board exam though.
Good point.

Rape is indeed a traumatic experience, but all Earthly experiences pails in comparison to experiences in the Afterlife, the Ultimate Reality. And victims in this life will be more than recompensed. I reiterate: Rape is terrible and traumatic to the body, (the body being defined in this thread as a temporary vehicle). However, falling short on life's exam questions (deliberately) is fatal to the very self, the very soul.

It is important to note that linked to the Ultimate Purpose is the task of striving to attain justice within ourselves and our environment. God does not absolve us from that task. God says:

"And let there be [arising] from you a nation inviting to [all that is] good, enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong, and those will be the successful." (Quran 3:104)

God permits the harm so that we may be challenged to strive against it, and as Tim Winter explains:

"In Islam, God has names of Beauty: the Compassionate, the Merciful, the Gentle, and many others. But He also has Names of Rigour: the Overwhelming, the Just, the Avenger. The world in which we live exists as the interaction and the manifestation of all of the divine attributes. Hence it is a place of ease and of hardship, of joy and of sorrow. It has to be this way: a world in which there was only ease could not be a place in which we can discover ourselves to be true human beings. It is only by experiencing hardship, and loss, and bereavement, and disease, that we rise above our egos, and show that we can live for others, and for principles, rather than only for ourselves."

Furthermore, God holds us accountable for the actual deeds that accompany our free will, as that is how His Justice works. Even in our Earthly justice systems, attempted murder is generally not the same as murder.

God transcends beyond the specific system of morality that He defined to Earthly life. His absolute system of Justice includes the Afterlife. God is the Creator and Sustainer of all that is, He is the Lord of the worlds. It is inconceivable to hold God to a system of justice ordained for Earth.
 

OrbitalDawn

Ulysses Everett McGill
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
42,279
Same goes for serial killers/psychopaths - most suffer from some mental illness and are declared insane. They usually murder several people before they are captured - by other people.
Indeed. And God made them that way. ;)
 

OrbitalDawn

Ulysses Everett McGill
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
42,279
God transcends beyond the specific system of morality that He defined to Earthly life. His absolute system of Justice includes the Afterlife. God is the Creator and Sustainer of all that is, He is the Lord of the worlds. It is inconceivable to hold God to a system of justice ordained for Earth.
More special pleading. The same 'system' used on Earth is applied to judge God's goodness in the first place.

Hitler loved animals. Godwin'd. :p
 

wayfarer

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2009
Messages
1,623
...The same 'system' used on Earth is applied to judge God's goodness in the first place...
You do not believe in this hypothetical god that you speak about above. However, that is something that we agree on: this non-transcendent, judgeable god that you define above does not exist.
 

OrbitalDawn

Ulysses Everett McGill
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
42,279
You do not believe in this hypothetical god that you speak about above. However, that is something that we agree on: this non-transcendent, judgeable god that you define above does not exist.
Dodging the issue, and I suspect you're intentionally trying to avoid admitting the mental gymnastics one has to engage in make the double standard fit.

You can't say God isn't judgeable and then proceed to proclaim that God is 'good', 'merciful', 'just', & 'benevolent'. These are value judgements, and they're based on the human standard.
 

Sodan

Expert Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
2,765
More special pleading. The same 'system' used on Earth is applied to judge God's goodness in the first place.
What an utterly disgusting view. :sick:
A serious mind-shift is required here. You are incorrectly judging this deity in the absence of an After life. From what wayfarer et al are saying, this Earthly life is but a really tiny subset of eternity (the greatest put being in the After life). With that mindset, it is quite clear that whatever suffering is experienced here is almost inconsequential, given that it is later recompensed many fold.

Time for another analogy (hopefully I'll be more clear here than I have been in the past). Oh, and porch, this is an attempt to address your question to me as well.
Assume I undergo some physical training. During this training I do some hectic workouts. The training makes me tired, makes me sore and stiff, and initially makes me quite miserable.
However, after the training, I am pretty well built and I have a smexy 6-pack, and the chicks absolutely dig me. Now in my (nerdy :eek:) life, that would be an awesome state of affairs. Oh yes, and I get all those health benefits.
The point is: I undergo hardship for a small period of time, and reap fantastic (to me) rewards for a long time thereafter.

Again, I remind you that the Earthly life is so short compared to eternity, that it's not even a drop in the ocean. With that in mind, it should be immediately apparent that whatever hardship is experienced on Earth, for this ultra short time (no matter how severe), is only "immoral" if it is not recompensed (many fold, for an infinitely longer amount of time) in a later Life.

Should there be no recompense, than yes, you are 100% correct, such a deity is most definitely immoral.
 
Top