A Muslim journey through Creationism and Evolution

OrbitalDawn

Ulysses Everett McGill
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A serious mind-shift is required here. You are incorrectly judging this deity in the absence of an After life. From what wayfarer et al are saying, this Earthly life is but a really tiny subset of eternity (the greatest put being in the After life). With that mindset, it is quite clear that whatever suffering is experienced here is almost inconsequential, given that it is later recompensed many fold.

Time for another analogy (hopefully I'll be more clear here than I have been in the past). Oh, and porch, this is an attempt to address your question to me as well.
Assume I undergo some physical training. During this training I do some hectic workouts. The training makes me tired, makes me sore and stiff, and initially makes me quite miserable.
However, after the training, I am pretty well built and I have a smexy 6-pack, and the chicks absolutely dig me. Now in my (nerdy :eek:) life, that would be an awesome state of affairs. Oh yes, and I get all those health benefits.
The point is: I undergo hardship for a small period of time, and reap fantastic (to me) rewards for a long time thereafter.

Again, I remind you that the Earthly life is so short compared to eternity, that it's not even a drop in the ocean. With that in mind, it should be immediately apparent that whatever hardship is experienced on Earth, for this ultra short time (no matter how severe), is only "immoral" if it is not recompensed (many fold, for an infinitely longer amount of time) in a later Life.

Should there be no recompense, than yes, you are 100% correct, such a deity is most definitely immoral.
The afterlife is irrelevant to the point I was making.

But, if one were to include the afterlife, which is deemed to be an eternity in a climate based on reward/punishment for actions in this life. If there is a hell where punishment and suffering is eternal then the being responsible for that is unbelievably cruel. The very existence of a hell is at odds with an omnibenevolent being. And to use supposed reward in the afterlife as an excuse for not real world misery and suffering in this life is pretty disgusting in my view, too.

I saw some poster claim that the reward is probably even greater for those made to suffer in this life. Can you not see how damaging and warped that view is? It has real world implications if people actually believe that. "I'm not going to bother stopping that rape, because it means her afterlife will be even better!"

Do I even need to mention that this 'afterlife' is a completely unsupported claim? There's no reason for us to believe it's anything more than fiction, and yet strife and misery in the real world is being glossed over because 'don't worry, when you die things will be better'. Nasty.
 

wayfarer

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Dodging the issue, and I suspect you're intentionally trying to avoid admitting the mental gymnastics one has to engage in make the double standard fit.
It is important to keep God out of the class/category of created being or human being, so that the misconception of "double standard" cannot inadvertently creep in. Once the erroneous anthropomorphism and reductionism of God is eschewed, no mental gymnastics will be required.

You can't say God isn't judgeable and then proceed to proclaim that God is 'good', 'merciful', 'just', & 'benevolent'. These are value judgements, and they're based on the human standard.
No, they are not value judgements. They are some of the infinite attributes that define God. It is His definition. We do not judge God - ever.
 

SoulTax

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I hear alot of talk about victims of rape and mass genocide being allowed to suffer,and while I hear you the reality of belief is that we do belief as per swa's metaphor this life is an exam(although rape and murder would probably be like writing the answer to question intentionally incorrectly rather than as a mistake so big negative marking there;)).

The victims of these crimes are actually the benefactors because most of their sins will be forgiven due to the suffering caused on them during the exam,I'm guessing the more the suffering the bigger percentage of the exam gets marked correctly even though it was incorrect because hey somebody interrupted your exam session.

Wayfarer's name alone shows that we believe this world is just one huge test and we are all but wayfarers going through it.Its much more grand and intense than your board exam though.
I say this with the most sincerity and least amount of sarcasm or intentional offense possible. If your God truly acts this way, then he is a degenerate little ****tard that should come down to earth so that he can get raped, murdered and resurrected repeatedly, tortured and bitchslapped like the little ******* that he is.

Of course you use the words, I am guessing in there. Because your God has not said that this is how he works. You and others are only prescribing this sense of "eternal fairness" due to your own morality (which you believe you have received from God, yet you recognise that his message of love and morality is at odds with the reality that you see around you, so you make **** up to keep the happy-fuzzy feelings in your heart).
It is an utterly disgusting world view, made more disgusting by the fact that you have been duped into thinking that there is an afterlife where this loving God can make it all up to you/them.
 

OrbitalDawn

Ulysses Everett McGill
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It is important to keep God out of the class/category of created being or human being, so that the misconception of "double standard" cannot inadvertently creep in. Once the erroneous anthropomorphism and reductionism of God is eschewed, no mental gymnastics will be required.
It's irrelevant which class or category you place him or us in. It's about an entity capable of having attributes, and then which attributes are assigned to that entity, and why.

You assign attributes to God, i.e. goodness, love, mercy etc. These are human concepts, and they're standards that we as humans are held to and judged by. Or do these words mean something completely different when applied to God?

wayfarer said:
No, they are not value judgements. They are some of the infinite attributes that define God. It is His definition. We do not judge God - ever.
Of course they are. To say something or someone or any intentional object for that matter is 'good' is to measure that person, thing or intentional object by a certain standard, and to reach a certain conclusion or view. That's what you do when you claim "God is good".

Would you include cruelty as one of the infinite attributes of God? If not, why not?
 

SoulTax

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No, they are not value judgements. They are some of the infinite attributes that define God. It is His definition. We do not judge God - ever.
You cannot assign judgmental words like Good or Merciful to God, then proclaim that they are beyond question and human judgement.

The only way to accept a Loving God into your heart is by judging him to be good and worthy of your worship. Otherwise you are simply being told what to believe and why. It removes free will, which God is supposedly quite fond of.
 

alloytoo

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It is important to keep God out of the class/category of created being or human being, so that the misconception of "double standard" cannot inadvertently creep in. Once the erroneous anthropomorphism and reductionism of God is eschewed, no mental gymnastics will be required.
On the contrary it is important to keep god(s) in the class of an intentional objects, the creations of human minds. This provides context for analysis of motivations and doctrine.
 

wayfarer

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You cannot assign judgmental words like Good or Merciful to God, then proclaim that they are beyond question and human judgement.

The only way to accept a Loving God into your heart is by judging him to be good and worthy of your worship. Otherwise you are simply being told what to believe and why. It removes free will, which God is supposedly quite fond of.
The finite seeks to judge the Infinite - what mental gymnastics!

The Truth is revealed - one is then free to either accept or reject it. Normative Islamic doctrine is not taken from personal judgements of societal and environmental observations, but is derived from Islam's canonical works, with the Quran at its core. God, who is necessarily defined as being beyond judgement operates on a dimension that we cannot even begin to fathom. Our knowledge of this Absolute Reality is basically naught, because our knowledge is limited to the spectrum of this tiny instance of life on Earth.

How arrogant can we be to assume that we can judge the Whole based on an infinitesimal part?
 

Sodan

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The afterlife is irrelevant to the point I was making.
I'm not sure what point you were making. I was discussing the claim that the deity is judged as "immoral" for allowing bad things to happen to people on Earth, and I demonstrated how considering the rest of the religious system, which includes the After life, effectively refutes this claim. Can you perhaps elaborate on what your point was, because it is seems I incorrectly assumed we were discussing the same thing?

But, if one were to include the afterlife, which is deemed to be an eternity in a climate based on reward/punishment for actions in this life. If there is a hell where punishment and suffering is eternal then the being responsible for that is unbelievably cruel. The very existence of a hell is at odds with an omnibenevolent being.
This is moving the goal posts. Let's focus and discuss one claim at a time, if you don't mind? I find that constantly moving the goal posts results in no resolution to a discussion/debate.

And to use supposed reward in the afterlife as an excuse for not real world misery and suffering in this life is pretty disgusting in my view, too.
Yeah well I can tell you one feels like utter cr @p the first few times you do some serious exercise. Well worth the effort, though. You know what they say: No pain, no gain.
But I agree with you, there will always be those who want something for nothing. Take the current state of South Africa, for example, with this ridiculous mentality of entitlement. :mad:

I saw some poster claim that the reward is probably even greater for those made to suffer in this life. Can you not see how damaging and warped that view is? It has real world implications if people actually believe that. "I'm not going to bother stopping that rape, because it means her afterlife will be even better!"
I don't suppose you also saw some other poster (wayfarer, to be specific) say :

what wayfarer said said:
It is important to note that linked to the Ultimate Purpose is the task of striving to attain justice within ourselves and our environment. God does not absolve us from that task. God says:

"And let there be [arising] from you a nation inviting to [all that is] good, enjoining what is right and forbidding what is wrong, and those will be the successful." (Quran 3:104)
Quite strange how you missed you that...

Do I even need to mention that this 'afterlife' is a completely unsupported claim?
Agreed, as unsupported as the claim of the deity's existence.

There's no reason for us to believe it's anything more than fiction,
So no need then get your knickers in a twist over the (incorrectly) judged "immorality" of a fictional being.

and yet strife and misery in the real world is being glossed over because 'don't worry, when you die things will be better'. Nasty.
It doesn't really count as an "evaluation" of a system if one only evaluates one part of the system and pretends that the other relevant parts don't exist. Then one has actually evaluated a completely different system. Furthermore, it would be scientifically incorrect to apply one's evaluation to the original, complete system.
 

SoulTax

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How arrogant can we be to assume that we can judge the Whole based on an infinitesimal part?
How arrogant can we be to assume that the infinite cares at all about what happens to this infinitesimally small part of existence.

You simply pull a cop out though. You assign human moralistic attributes to this infinite being, "only good attributes mind you", then you proclaim that we are not allowed to judge his message and actions using those same "definitive terms"?
 

falcon786

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What an utterly disgusting view. :sick:
Its disgusting that people who suffer in this world get rewarded for their suffering in the next?Really?:confused:

Whats sick about somebody who has been harmed being more than re-compensated?:confused:Should they still be equal to those that have not been harmed in the afterlife or should they be harmed more in the afterlife lol what would not be sick from your point of view.....I really don't see the alternative in the afterlife being better in this case.
 

falcon786

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I thought this thread is "A muslim journey through creationism and evolution",it seems like we are quickly(myself included) making it into one of GOD vs NO GOD.

Shouldn't we rather open a new thread to discuss GOD?It's an interesting discussion but I don't think its on topic guys.....
 

SoulTax

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Its disgusting that people who suffer in this world get rewarded for their suffering in the next?Really?:confused:

Whats sick about somebody who has been harmed being more than re-compensated?:confused:Should they still be equal to those that have not been harmed in the afterlife or should they be harmed more in the afterlife lol what would not be sick from your point of view.....I really don't see the alternative in the afterlife being better in this case.
For your view to hold any water, you first need to prove that there is an afterlife. Otherwise you are just guessing, and to base any kind of justice on guess work is terribly misguided.
 

porchrat

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A serious mind-shift is required here. You are incorrectly judging this deity in the absence of an After life. From what wayfarer et al are saying, this Earthly life is but a really tiny subset of eternity (the greatest put being in the After life). With that mindset, it is quite clear that whatever suffering is experienced here is almost inconsequential, given that it is later recompensed many fold.

Time for another analogy (hopefully I'll be more clear here than I have been in the past). Oh, and porch, this is an attempt to address your question to me as well.
Assume I undergo some physical training. During this training I do some hectic workouts. The training makes me tired, makes me sore and stiff, and initially makes me quite miserable.
However, after the training, I am pretty well built and I have a smexy 6-pack, and the chicks absolutely dig me. Now in my (nerdy :eek:) life, that would be an awesome state of affairs. Oh yes, and I get all those health benefits.
The point is: I undergo hardship for a small period of time, and reap fantastic (to me) rewards for a long time thereafter.

Again, I remind you that the Earthly life is so short compared to eternity, that it's not even a drop in the ocean. With that in mind, it should be immediately apparent that whatever hardship is experienced on Earth, for this ultra short time (no matter how severe), is only "immoral" if it is not recompensed (many fold, for an infinitely longer amount of time) in a later Life.

Should there be no recompense, than yes, you are 100% correct, such a deity is most definitely immoral.
If you are going to take up this stance then you have to admit that this same deity punishes "almost inconsequential" harms with an eternity of agonising torture.

Either way there is immorality.

That and remember we aren't talking about just some ordinary benevolent deity, this deity is supposedly omnibenevolent (although perhaps in Islam it is different?). Can't be all good if you allow even that "almost inconsequential" amount of suffering to occur.
 
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falcon786

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For your view to hold any water, you first need to prove that there is an afterlife. Otherwise you are just guessing, and to base any kind of justice on guess work is terribly misguided.
Well for your view to hold any water also you first have to prove there isn't an afterlife,because hey lets face it we don't know much about the universe and have barely even explored 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of it maybe even less.How about we leave proofs to when we have explored the remaining percentage in its entirety,for now we simply believe in GOD and believe in the afterlife.If you don't want to then good for you.

Just because you haven't found proof of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist,radio waves existed 3000 years ago even though they couldn't prove it.So are you trying to say 3000 years ago a human being could not prove radio waves therefore it did not exist?
:wtf:
 
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OrbitalDawn

Ulysses Everett McGill
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The finite seeks to judge the Infinite - what mental gymnastics!
Yet you do exactly that. You judge God to be good, you judge Him to be merciful.

wayfarer said:
The Truth is revealed - one is then free to either accept or reject it. Normative Islamic doctrine is not taken from personal judgements of societal and environmental observations, but is derived from Islam's canonical works, with the Quran at its core. God, who is necessarily defined as being beyond judgement operates on a dimension that we cannot even begin to fathom. Our knowledge of this Absolute Reality is basically naught, because our knowledge is limited to the spectrum of this tiny instance of life on Earth.

How arrogant can we be to assume that we can judge the Whole based on an infinitesimal part?
And yet religion does exactly that. Claims to know intricate details about the nature of this deity, what this deity's plans are for us, what we should eat, who we should sleep with, what rituals we need to go through, what capitulations are necessary for salvation. You can't claim ignorance on the part of humanity about these matters but then at the same time follow a religion that claims it's the one true answer to all of humanity's wants and needs.
 

Sodan

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For your view to hold any water, you first need to prove that there is an afterlife. Otherwise you are just guessing, and to base any kind of justice on guess work is terribly misguided.
Actually, this "view" is part and parcel of the exact same "view" that the deity exists in the first place. Please see my previous post in this thread (post #128) where I talk about evaluating only a part of a given system.

If you are going to take up this stance then you have to admit that this same deity punishes "almost inconsequential" harms with an eternity of agonising torture.

Either way there is immorality.
Please see my previous post in this thread (#128) about moving the goal posts.
 

porchrat

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Please see my previous post in this thread (#128) about moving the goal posts.
I made an edit to bring it back to the topic at hand.

The point was that we aren't talking about just some ordinary entity that is sometimes benevolent and sometimes nasty, this deity is supposedly omnibenevolent, all good (although perhaps in Islam it is different?). Can't be all good if you allow even that "almost inconsequential" amount of suffering to occur when you could easily stop it and judge from your omniscient position without them needing to suffer.

Voluntarily choosing the path containing suffering when you could choose a path within your power that contains no suffering and doesn't harm or even really effect you at all, is immoral IMO. It doesn't matter how inconsequential you may deem that suffering to be.
 
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wayfarer

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If you are going to take up this stance then you have to admit that this same deity punishes "almost inconsequential" harms with an eternity of agonising torture.

Either way there is immorality.
In Islam, we have no knowledge of that. We do not know how long and how severely God punishes an individual for any particular transgression. What we do know is that His Mercy outstrips His rigour.
 

porchrat

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In Islam, we have no knowledge of that. We do not know how long and how severely God punishes an individual for any particular transgression. What we do know is that His Mercy outstrips His rigour.
You agree that the punishment is supposed to be pretty darn nasty though right?

If the harm is "almost inconsequential" then your punishment shouldn't be "pretty darn nasty".
 

SoulTax

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Well for your view to hold any water also you first have to prove there isn't an afterlife,because hey lets face it we don't know much about the universe and have barely even explored 0.000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% of it maybe even less.How about we leave proofs to when we have explored the remaining percentage in its entirety,for now we simply believe in GOD and believe in the afterlife.If you don't want to then good for you.

Just because you haven't found proof of something doesn't mean it doesn't exist,radio waves existed 3000 years ago even though they couldn't prove it.So are you trying to say 3000 years ago a human being could not prove radio waves therefore it did not exist?
:wtf:
Yes but nobody 3000 years ago made the claim that there were radio waves, and if they had, they would have been expected to show some evidence to support the claim. If they could not, then their claim would not be taken seriously.

You are drastically lacking in the understanding of the Burden of Proof. You make the claim, you prove it.

Sure we can leave the proofs until we explore the universe in it's entirety. But then we must also leave the unsupported claims behind as well. Of which your God and his afterlife are a part of.
 
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