AfriForum Warns Against One Sided Apartheid Crime Prosecutions

Cosmik Debris

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Where in there does it say the TRC was stopped, because the ANC didn't like that their crimes were being exposed? And an opinion piece is not a very good way to show people that your claims aren't BS.

I'll dig and find it. Will you apologise for being wrong when I or another person here does? Or will you continue with your narrative and sulks?
 

R13...

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I'll dig and find it. Will you apologise for being wrong when I or another person here does? Or will you continue with your narrative and sulks?
Lol, I don't sulk, my good cully. That's you. And yes if you can dig up some backing for your claim I'll apologize as is my wont when found to be in error. Another lesson for you.
Truth Commission: Commission of Truth and Reconciliation (TRC)
Dates of Operation: December 1995 – 2002 (7 years; the original mandate ended in 1998 but was extended.)
 

Cosmik Debris

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Rather inaccurate cartoon by Zapiro. Rodriquez wasn't found guilty anyway and he was a clerk that happened to be at the place. The Timol case is purely religious as Timol was a Muslim and suicide brings dishonour on the family. They needed a murderer to restore family dignity.

Plenty that slipped through the cracks like these cases Zapiro does not show and not one ANC murderer was prosecuted:

Joao Rodriques is currently being prosecuted for the murder of Ahmed Timol.

In stark contrast with these prosecutions, not a single member of the National Executive Committee of the ANC, to whom amnesty has been denied, has ever been prosecuted despite the fact that abundant evidence is available to prove that according to the principle of common purpose in our law, they can be prosecuted in the following cases:

On 20 May 1983, a powerful car bomb exploded in front of the Nedbank Square Building in Church Street, Pretoria, at approximately 4 p.m. (The building was known as the Nedbank Square Maritime House). A total of 19 people was killed, including 12 civilians and 7 members of the Defence Force. A total of 219 people was seriously injured or mutilated, including 217 civilians and 2 members of the Defence Force.

On 23 December 1985, targeting civilian Christmas shoppers, members of Umkhonto weSizwe (MK) placed an explosive device in a refuse bin at the Amanzimtoti shopping centre. 5 civilians were killed and 40 seriously injured and mutilated. Former President Jacob Zuma publicly admitted that these MK members acted under his authority.

On 14 June 1986, a car bomb exploded in front of the Magoos pub in the Parade Hotel in Durban. 3 Civilians were killed and 89 seriously injured and mutilated.

On20 May 1987, a limpet mine and car bomb exploded in front of the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court. 3 Policemen were killed and 15 civilians seriously injured and mutilated.

On 2 July 1988, a car bomb exploded in front of the Ellis Park Rugby Stadium in Johannesburg. Two civilians were killed and 37 were seriously injured and mutilated.

On 25 July 1993, defenceless churchgoers who included women and children, were attacked in the St. James church, Kenilworth, Cape Town with AK47 rifles and hand grenades and 11 killed in cold blood. Many were wounded. Mr. Letlapa Mphahlele, the former president of the PAC, who ordered the attack, was prosecuted and initially appeared in court on multiple charges of murder but the case was postponed and has since disappeared.

More than 90% of the victims of the terrorist acts mentioned above were defenceless civilians, including women and children. These acts were all, from a moral point of view, flagrant violations of the provisions of the Protocol to the Geneva Convention and as such a crime against humanity. Decisions by Amnesty Committees and statements made by members of Umkhonto WeSizwe during amnesty hearings are hereby attached to indicate the extent of the evidence available against members of the National Executive of the ANC who have been denied amnesty.
 

R13...

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How many ANC prosecuted again?
I don't know how many from the ANC or otherwise got prosecuted. Why do you think ANC prosecutions interest me more than others? Besides this sideline you're going for is a misdirection to detract from the lack of proof for your BS claim earlier.
 

Cray

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In stark contrast with these prosecutions, not a single member of the National Executive Committee of the ANC, to whom amnesty has been denied, has ever been prosecuted despite the fact that abundant evidence is available to prove that according to the principle of common purpose in our law, they can be prosecuted in the following cases:
On 20 May 1983, a powerful car bomb exploded in front of the Nedbank Square Building in Church Street, Pretoria, at approximately 4 p.m. (The building was known as the Nedbank Square Maritime House). A total of 19 people was killed, including 12 civilians and 7 members of the Defence Force. A total of 219 people was seriously injured or mutilated, including 217 civilians and 2 members of the Defence Force.

On 23 December 1985, targeting civilian Christmas shoppers, members of Umkhonto weSizwe (MK) placed an explosive device in a refuse bin at the Amanzimtoti shopping centre. 5 civilians were killed and 40 seriously injured and mutilated. Former President Jacob Zuma publicly admitted that these MK members acted under his authority.

On 14 June 1986, a car bomb exploded in front of the Magoos pub in the Parade Hotel in Durban. 3 Civilians were killed and 89 seriously injured and mutilated.

On20 May 1987, a limpet mine and car bomb exploded in front of the Johannesburg Magistrate's Court. 3 Policemen were killed and 15 civilians seriously injured and mutilated.

On 2 July 1988, a car bomb exploded in front of the Ellis Park Rugby Stadium in Johannesburg. Two civilians were killed and 37 were seriously injured and mutilated.

On 25 July 1993, defenceless churchgoers who included women and children, were attacked in the St. James church, Kenilworth, Cape Town with AK47 rifles and hand grenades and 11 killed in cold blood. Many were wounded. Mr. Letlapa Mphahlele, the former president of the PAC, who ordered the attack, was prosecuted and initially appeared in court on multiple charges of murder but the case was postponed and has since disappeared.

More than 90% of the victims of the terrorist acts mentioned above were defenceless civilians, including women and children. These acts were all, from a moral point of view, flagrant violations of the provisions of the Protocol to the Geneva Convention and as such a crime against humanity. Decisions by Amnesty Committees and statements made by members of Umkhonto WeSizwe during amnesty hearings are hereby attached to indicate the extent of the evidence available against members of the National Executive of the ANC who have been denied amnesty.
Please quote the source for the above...
 

nightjar

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Like what? Denying people the right to vote? :)

ANC and their cadres in the IEC did exactly that.
Apartheid was a rotten & unjust system but denying people the right to vote was actually meaningless because it was never part of their culture and still isn't.
The so called voters simply accept their KFC, t-shirts and social grants and make a mark where the headman, chief or Party enforcer tells them to.
 

Cosmik Debris

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I don't know how many from the ANC or otherwise got prosecuted. Why do you think ANC prosecutions interest me more than others? Besides this sideline you're going for is a misdirection to detract from the lack of proof for your BS claim earlier.

Because the ANC was shown as worse than the apartheid regime but none got prosecuted. The apartheid black death toll was about 22 000 in 40 years. 21 000 killed by the ANC of which 14 000 died between 1990 and 1994. Winnies legacy...

No members of the ANC got prosecuted. These members of the apartheid regime got prosecuted:

The following political leaders and members of the former government and security forces have already been prosecuted for crimes related to the conflict of the past:

General Magnus Malan, former Minister of Défense, General Jannie Geldenhuys, former head of the South African Defense Force and several other generals and members of the security forces in the Kwamakhutha case. They were all acquitted. More than R40 million was wasted on this case.

Dr. Wouter Basson was also charged and acquitted. More than R40 million was also wasted in this case.

Mr. Adriaan Vlok, former Minister of Law and Order. General Johan van der Merwe, former Commissioner of Police and three other former members of the security branch were prosecuted.

Col. Gideon Nieuwoudt and three other members of the security branch were prosecuted for the PEBCO-3 case.

Colonels Willem Coetzee and Anton Pretorius with Capt. Frik Mong are currently being prosecuted for allegedly murdering a member of Umkhonto weSizwe.

Joao Rodriques is currently being prosecuted for the murder of Ahmed Timol.
 

R13...

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Because the ANC was shown as worse than the apartheid regime but none got prosecuted. The apartheid black death toll was about 22 000 in 40 years. 21 000 killed by the ANC of which 14 000 died between 1990 and 1994. Winnies legacy...

No members of the ANC got prosecuted. These members of the apartheid regime got prosecuted:

The following political leaders and members of the former government and security forces have already been prosecuted for crimes related to the conflict of the past:

General Magnus Malan, former Minister of Défense, General Jannie Geldenhuys, former head of the South African Defense Force and several other generals and members of the security forces in the Kwamakhutha case. They were all acquitted. More than R40 million was wasted on this case.

Dr. Wouter Basson was also charged and acquitted. More than R40 million was also wasted in this case.

Mr. Adriaan Vlok, former Minister of Law and Order. General Johan van der Merwe, former Commissioner of Police and three other former members of the security branch were prosecuted.

Col. Gideon Nieuwoudt and three other members of the security branch were prosecuted for the PEBCO-3 case.

Colonels Willem Coetzee and Anton Pretorius with Capt. Frik Mong are currently being prosecuted for allegedly murdering a member of Umkhonto weSizwe.

Joao Rodriques is currently being prosecuted for the murder of Ahmed Timol.
The numbers you post are again as baseless as the initial claim about the ANC. The violence of the 90s was the ANC and inkata, but formented by the apartheid state who also trained and armed inkata fighters.
 

konfab

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Apartheid was a rotten & unjust system but denying people the right to vote was actually meaningless because it was never part of their culture and still isn't.
The so called voters simply accept their KFC, t-shirts and social grants and make a mark where the headman, chief or Party enforcer tells them to.
You are wrong on this. If that was the case, then why is the ANC so desperate to cancel elections? And yes, I mean cancel them, as the moment they can "delay" them once, they will delay them permanently.
 

nightjar

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If that was the case, then why is the ANC so desperate to cancel elections? And yes, I mean cancel them, as the moment they can "delay" them once, they will delay them permanently.
Some cash would be needed and staff tend to get a bit bolshie after being unpaid for a few months.
We also don't know what skelm deals are in the pipeline that might come to fruition in later months.
 

konfab

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The numbers you post are again as baseless as the initial claim about the ANC. The violence of the 90s was the ANC and inkata, but formented by the apartheid state who also trained and armed inkata fighters.
Wrong. That is literal ANC propaganda. The ANC conducted their people's war to annihilate any black opposition to their rule.

- Political violence was due to the white “third force”.

The police did have many informants, impimpi, against whom the necklace was brutally used. But the only evidence to pass prosecutorial muster of “third force” activity was against one Eugene de Kock, who was seen handing over two truckloads of arms to the IFP in 1993. By this time, De Kock had already been forced to resign in shame for his self-enriching corrupt dealings and would eventually be prosecuted on scores of charges in this regard.

The Boipatong Massacre was the most famous “third force” case where whites in black face-paint were said to be killing to ruin peace. The Goldstone Commission concluded that the police played no part, and the 1999 TRC investigation found “that [IFP] perpetrators of the massacre were telling the truth when they said they had acted on their own and without police help”.

https://irr.org.za/media/the-people2019s-war-myth-after-origin-myth-debunked-rational-standard
 

Stonemason

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Please quote the source for the above...
If you need a source to confirm the terrorism spree perpetrated by the ANC between 1980 and 1994 then you are either 16 years old or you are totally ignorant about the past.

I am not going to comment of the merits of this but I can tell you the ANC bombed and killed civilians left and right. That included placing landmines on rural roads and killing women and children in the process. These acts also including terrorising people from the townships by forcing them to eat washing powder if they broke so-called shopping boycotts by going into town to buy necessities. I am also sure that you have heard of the barbaric practice of necklacing

During the last years before 1994, the ANC jockeyed for position and would do anything they could to make sure they eliminated rivals in the political processes that were evolving at that stage. During those years up to 300 people died per month in the townships as a result of ANC (and IFP) actions. All in all, the Apartheid government were amateurs compared to the ANC when it came to murdering Black people.

And, before you ask me for my source I will tell you that at the time I worked as a reporter and have written countless reports on this. Many of these acts of terror I also witnessed firsthand and there were more that one evening that I had to wash the blood off my shoes before I could enter my house.
 

R13...

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Wrong. That is literal ANC propaganda. The ANC conducted their people's war to annihilate any black opposition to their rule.



https://irr.org.za/media/the-people2019s-war-myth-after-origin-myth-debunked-rational-standard
Depends on who you ask but the operations and support would have been clandestine with enough deniability for the state to be able to claim ignorance or disown anyone caught.

THE IBIIR REPORTS​

The respected Independent Board of Inquiry into Informal Repression (IBIIR) issues monthly reports on violence and other forms of repression. Their report for August 1990 documented increasing evidence of collusion between the police and Inkatha. The report identified the two sides in the Transvaal violence as pro-Inkatha Zulu hostel dwellers versus township residents and squatters loyal to the ANC. The IBIIR concluded that if the allegations of a police-Inkatha alliance were true, the collusion would suit the interests of right-wing elements of the security establishment, which favors "black on black" violence as a means of discouraging whites from supporting reforms. The document provides evidence to support the following allegations:

  • Police vehicles accompanied Inkatha members armed with assegais, pangas, knobkerries and other weapons before violence broke out in Sebokeng, and no attempt was made to disarm them.


  • Police had been forewarned of a possible Inkatha attack in Sebokeng by attorneys acting for the IBIIR and COSATU.


  • Township residents have made statements claiming police committed unlawful acts, including destruction of property, theft and assault, during a massive search operation for hidden weapons.


  • Police allegedly failed to intervene, despite a warning by IBIIR and COSATU lawyers, of an impending clash on July 24 between Soweto train commuters and armed Inkatha supporters.


  • While shots were fired, apparently by Inkatha supporters, at a squatter camp in Thokoza, police parked in Casspirs only 200 meters away failed to act, and neglected to disarm Inkatha warriors.


  • Police at times escorted Inkatha members preparing to attack, watched them attack without intervening, disarmed them only after the attacks had taken place, and fired teargas at opposing groups of township residents and not at Inkatha impis.


  • A Father Peter Hortop said he saw Casspirs travelling on either side of a marching column of Inkatha members.


  • According to Cyril Jantjies, a member of the regional convening committee of the ANC, police had shot four people dead in KwaThema.


  • Police colluded with Inkatha in gun battles with residents of Kagiso where 37 people died and 39 were injured.


  • A Kagiso resident, Elizabeth Mashaba, told IBIIR lawyers that Inkatha supporters came to her house in a police van and killed her husband, Michael Mashaba, a 60-year-old pensioner.


  • A hostel-dweller who was forced to join Inkatha or face death, alleged that Inkatha leaders had covert links with police patrols.135
An article by Reverend Sizwe Mbabne, vice-bishop of the Methodist Church of South Africa, stated that police refused to disarm Inkatha supporters and that a pattern could be detected in which the groups attacked by Inkatha were subsequently teargassed by the police under the guise of "maintenance of law and order."136 Bishop Tutu made the following comment on the extent of the violence:

Everywhere you go──be it Vosloorus or Thokosa──and ask people what has happened they say "the police are killing us."137

The IBIIR report for the month of November noted the emergence of a new pattern in the violence. Rather than the large impis that attacked during August and September, the Board reported that smaller groups were now responsible for most attacks, usually armed with AK 47s and other firearms. In most cases, victims were shot rather than hacked with pangas.138

 

Cray

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If you need a source to confirm the terrorism spree perpetrated by the ANC between 1980 and 1994 then you are either 16 years old or you are totally ignorant about the past.
Thanks for the passive-aggressive comment, but the reason I want a quote is that Cosmo Debris has a rather bad habit of passing off other peoples work as his own thoughts, I was looking for him to attribute his source, I wasn't calling into question the facts of the incidents he posted.

I am not going to comment of the merits of this but I can tell you the ANC bombed and killed civilians left and right. That included placing landmines on rural roads and killing women and children in the process. These acts also including terrorising people from the townships by forcing them to eat washing powder if they broke so-called shopping boycotts by going into town to buy necessities. I am also sure that you have heard of the barbaric practice of necklacing

During the last years before 1994, the ANC jockeyed for position and would do anything they could to make sure they eliminated rivals in the political processes that were evolving at that stage. During those years up to 300 people died per month in the townships as a result of ANC (and IFP) actions. All in all, the Apartheid government were amateurs compared to the ANC when it came to murdering Black people.

And, before you ask me for my source I will tell you that at the time I worked as a reporter and have written countless reports on this. Many of these acts of terror I also witnessed firsthand and there were more that one evening that I had to wash the blood off my shoes before I could enter my house.
Again, both sides did some pretty horrible things and people who intentionally targeted civillians should be punished.
 

Cosmik Debris

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The numbers you post are again as baseless as the initial claim about the ANC. The violence of the 90s was the ANC and inkata, but formented by the apartheid state who also trained and armed inkata fighters.

They are? Here you are then:

Max Coleman’s authoritative book analyses all deaths due to political violence from 1948 to 1994 in South Africa and Namibia.

According to the HRC statistics, 21,000 people died in political violence in South Africa during apartheid – of whom 14,000 people died during the six-year transition process from 1990 to 1994. The book lists the number of incidents, dates, and those involved.

This includes SA Defence Force actions, for instance the 600 deaths at Cassinga in Angola during the war in 1978.

Of those deaths, the vast majority, 92%, have been primarily due to Africans killing Africans — such as the inter-tribal battles for territory: this book’s detailed analyses of the period June 1990 to July 1993 indicates a total of 8580 (92%) of the 9,325 violent deaths during the period June 1990 to July 1993 were caused by Africans killing Africans, or as the news media often calls it, “Black on Black” violence – hostel killings, Inkatha Freedom Party versus ANC killings, and taxi and turf war violence.

The activities of the Civil Cooperation Bureau as outlined by the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, were also included in these figures.

The security forces of the RSA caused 518 deaths (5.6%) throughout this period.

And again, during the transitional period, the primary causes of deaths were not security forces nor white right-wing violence against blacks (The AWB was allied with the IFP (Zulu)), but mainly due to “black-on-black necklace murders”, tribal conflict between the ANC-IFP, bombs by the ANC and PAC’s military wings in shopping centres, landmines on farm roads, etc.
 

Cosmik Debris

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Thanks for the passive-aggressive comment, but the reason I want a quote is that Cosmo Debris has a rather bad habit of passing off other peoples work as his own thoughts, I was looking for him to attribute his source, I wasn't calling into question the facts of the incidents he posted.

I have attributed the source of every post I have made on this thread as I knew the usual would ask for sources.. Your accusation is baseless.
 
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