AIDS shower boy Zuma set to tie the knot for a fifth time

[Sherbang]

There... fixed it for you

Thanks!

 

[Hoof-Hearted]

It's not so much who was here first or whose laws were here first as much as the fact that, for better or worse, currently the majority of people subscribe to laws which are cultural and existed before our laws. !

If this were really true JZ would happily have accepted having wooden stakes driven into his rectum as punishment for fsking his friends daughter

 

[Sherbang]

If this were really true JZ would happily have accepted having wooden stakes driven into his rectum as punishment for fsking his friends daughter

Excuse me? What south african tradition are we talking about here?
You made that up! Although the spanish inquisition was known to do things like that...

But seriously, what is the big deal with polygamy?
It happens, it's not common anyway, but it is legal...

 

[Iwojima]

It's not so much who was here first or whose laws were here first as much as the fact that, for better or worse, currently the majority of people subscribe to laws which are cultural and existed before our laws. It's not so easy to tell people they are wrong and you are right.

Quite right. It doesn't matter. You were the one who referred to their "cultures" as being native to the land (which they aren't) as if it mattered in some way and made it unchangeable.

What matters is how hanging onto that culture (selectively I might add) prevents SA from moving forward and being taken seriously.

I'm not sure the San had many laws and were socialist to the extreme if that's preferable to you!

No, that too is an outdated culture which was eliminated by their Northern neighbours (by force).

Why can't Western values now filter down and improve Africa in the same way (without force, but an acknowledgment of them being a bit less self destructive)?

 

[Sherbang]

Quite right. It doesn't matter. You were the one who referred to their "cultures" as being native to the land (which they aren't) as if it mattered in some way and made it unchangeable.

Actually, I never said anything about "cultures" as being native to the land, I don't think. Just they exist and existed long before our laws were imported. I agree cultures change, but change cannot be forced.

What matters is how hanging onto that culture (selectively I might add) prevents SA from moving forward and being taken seriously.

Really? So if Islam becomes the dominant culture and much of the world turns to Sharia law, you'll be perfectly happy to just drop your own culture and standards of morality and adopt Sharia in order to "move forward and be taken seriously"?

 

[Claymore]

Ah, so it is not the same as a civil marriage then? Seems to be another escape clause implemented so that certain cultures can bypass the law of the land.

It's not bypassing the law of the land - it *is* a law of the land.

What matters is how hanging onto that culture (selectively I might add) prevents SA from moving forward and being taken seriously.

In what way?

Why can't Western values now filter down and improve Africa in the same way (without force, but an acknowledgment of them being a bit less self destructive)?

What sort of Western values are we talking about here? And why are they better?

 

[Slootvreter]

No, I was just answering your question 'who the hell would want to marry this guy'
Answer is lots of people - millions! I didn't say anything about it being right or wrong.

There won't be millions queuing for this guy if he was just an average nobody. It's status and money they want.

 

[Sherbang]

There won't be millions queuing for this guy if he was just an average nobody. It's status and money they want.

And power, don't forget power!
Even in cultures where polygamy is allowed, it is not common and indicates power and status. The more wives JZ has the more status he has too.
Most african men you meet, if married, will only have one wife, unless they are people of power. It's all about status.

 

[Hoof-Hearted]

Excuse me? What south african tradition are we talking about here?
You made that up! Although the spanish inquisition was known to do things like that...
...

That's Zulu culture mate, the one JZ keeps using as an excuse for his shena****ns, not SA tradition
Spent a rainy few weeks down in Grahamstown a while ago and was lucky enough to attend a series of presentations by Julian Cobbing on the rise of the Zulu state and moralities inherent in Zulu society under Shaka.
Now this was way before JZ couldn't hold himself back when faced with a young woman in a kanga, but one of the overwhelming attitudes of Shaka's time (where Zulu culture originates from) was one of sexual ascetism; not giving in to urges, or the belief that a woman was "asking for it" if she wore revealing clothing.
In fact it was reported (through a couple of sources that Cobbing quoted as well as in other books I've read since then) that Shaka often paraded nubile young maidens naked in front of his impi to test their fortitude, those who "rose to the occasion" as it were, were despatched by a crushing blow to the skull or dragged off into the velt where wooden stakes were pushed up their bottoms and they were left to die (apparenlty this was one of his favorite punishments for all sorts of transgressions).
If a 100% Zulu boy actually got busy with a Zulu maiden, zulu culture dictated that he take her as his wife. If he didn't, it was a disgrace to her family who could then exact justice on said Zulu boy. Said justice involving bottoms and wooden stakes being the order of the day

Further reading on Zulu culture:
John Wright - History proff UKZN
Dan Wylie - Rhodes
... and if you can get through more than 3 pages before the writing style puts you to sleep, try some military history by Donald Morris

... oh and for some light reading to be taken with a pinch of salt in some cases - Shaka Zulu by E.A Ritter

But seriously, what is the big deal with polygamy?
It happens, it's not common anyway, but it is legal...

Don't think many people have a problem with polygamy as such, the problem really is how "accepted norms" seem to be manipulated / twisted under the guise of zulu "culture"

 

[Iwojima]

Actually, I never said anything about "cultures" as being native to the land, I don't think. Just they exist and existed long before our laws were imported. I agree cultures change, but change cannot be forced.

You referred to their cultural laws as being native to the land and then admitted they are not. Same difference.

Really? So if Islam becomes the dominant culture and much of the world turns to Sharia law, you'll be perfectly happy to just drop your own culture and standards of morality and adopt Sharia in order to "move forward and be taken seriously"?

Islam is not a progressive culture/religion and is also stuck 2000 years in the past. Not a very good example.

It's not bypassing the law of the land - it *is* a law of the land.

It is a law tacked on to cater to specific cultures. The fact that polygamy is not permitted by civil marriage is evidence of this.

In what way?

Hanging on cultures that breed misinformation; e.g. raping of virgins as a cure for AIDS, harvesting of genitals for muti, fighting other "tribes" (even though they are the same race, i.e. further dividing an already strong racial line), etc; make Africans look like savages and the persistent selective application of their culture, when it suites them, shows how unwilling they are to become part of a "global tribe" (which is key to prosperity these days whether you like it or not)

What sort of Western values are we talking about here? And why are they better?

I hate to backtrack, but maybe I shouldn't haven't used Western values, but modern practices instead. If you're going to embrace Western culture (i.e. where the fancy imported Italian clothes and drive the German luxury car) how about giving up slaughtering cows in your back yard, blaming things on spirits and going to pokey witchdoctors for treatment.

I'm not saying people should give up their culture, but rather update it and remove the nonsense that belongs in the past. Carry on with the harmless cultural practices that don't have to be catered for specially when laws are being drawn up and remove the snotty double standards that the rest of us have to endure. To refer back to the topic, if culturally sanctioned marriage allows polygamy then so too should civil marriage.

 

[Moron noodle]

"What sort of Western values are we talking about here? And why are they better?"

Freedom, democracy, and human rights. Lets include deductive reasoning (as per greek scholars), and Rule of Law.

Why are they better?

Because societies that follow them succeed, and apart from the Asian tigers + Japan, Westerners enjoy the highest standards of living (anyway Asian tigers have co-opted many Western values into their society). From a utilitarian perspective its all about maximising happiness - for all citizens.

And here's the crunch - Joelus mentioned "that a woman taking many husbands" would be ridiculous (he may have been joking). Now that offended me, that certain people (men in this case) have greater rights than others, or that women under Sharia law have less rights than men. Western civilisation (practised as preached) treats all humans (over 18) as having the same rights regardless of status, colour or gender.

joelus is unfortunately preaching 'cultural relativism' - which does not allow him to criticise other cultures - its a basic dead end - The Indian caste system, slavery etc. cannot be criticised - because "it is a part of their culture".

 

[Fuma]

Hanging on cultures that breed misinformation; e.g. raping of virgins as a cure for AIDS

What? Maybe I don't know the difference between a myth and culture.

 

[sox63]

What? Maybe I don't know the difference between a myth and culture.

I dont think Iwojima himself knows.

 

[Iwojima]

What? Maybe I don't know the difference between a myth and culture.

I dont think Iwojima himself knows.

Cause and effect, gents.

It is a myth that is believed by many in specific African cultures, and was more than likely perpetuated by some dodgy witchdoctor or elder and believed by members of the culture because, culturally, the witchdoctor or elder is the most knowledgeable source.

Why is it that similar myths are not present in other modern cultures in SA?

 

[Sherbang]

That's Zulu culture mate, the one JZ keeps using as an excuse for his shena****ns, not SA tradition

This is NOT Zulu culture.
These are the actions of a leader who was showing increasing signs of mental deterioration. It was/is not traditional in any way. Unless you think that torturing and murdering black people while having a braai is a part of Afrikaner culture and tradition because it happened during apartheid. It's not. There is nothing cultural or traditional about it.

Further reading on Zulu culture:
John Wright - History proff UKZN
Dan Wylie - Rhodes

You mean the same Dan Wylie who says:

Shaka Zulu's brutality was exaggerated, says new book...
Shaka Zulu, the 19th-century warrior king dubbed Africa's Napoleon, was not the bloodthirsty military genius of historical depiction, says new research.
His reputation for brutality was concocted by biased colonial-era white chroniclers and unreliable Zulu storytellers who turned the man into a myth.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/may/22/rorycarroll.mainsection
That Dan Wylie?

Don't think many people have a problem with polygamy as such, the problem really is how "accepted norms" seem to be manipulated / twisted under the guise of zulu "culture"

Well this thread has mostly been about polygamy and peoples negative reaction to it. Obviously some cultural / traditional practices should not be tolerated. Female circumcision, for example, stoning someone to death, for example are traditions which should rightly be outlawed. Polygamy is not one of them, is not a problem.

 

[Sherbang]

And here's the crunch - Joelus mentioned "that a woman taking many husbands" would be ridiculous (he may have been joking).

Yes, the wink after that statement indicates I was joking!

joelus is unfortunately preaching 'cultural relativism' - which does not allow him to criticise other cultures - its a basic dead end - The Indian caste system, slavery etc. cannot be criticised - because "it is a part of their culture".

Absolutely Not! We're not talking about the indian cast system, slavery, genital mutilation or anything like that. We're talking about marriage and laws around marriage, it's completely different

 

[sox63]

Cause and effect, gents.

It is a myth that is believed by many in specific African cultures, and was more than likely perpetuated by some dodgy witchdoctor or elder and believed by members of the culture because, culturally, the witchdoctor or elder is the most knowledgeable source.

Why is it that similar myths are not present in other modern cultures in SA?

You are being silly if you think a few nut jobs' ideas on how to get rid off AIDS forms ANY part of a culture.

It is myth, simple as that.

 

[Sherbang]

Now that offended me, that certain people (men in this case) have greater rights than others, or that women under Sharia law have less rights than men. Western civilisation (practised as preached) treats all humans (over 18) as having the same rights regardless of status, colour or gender.

Actually, no. A women who marries a man who is already married has no marriage rights whatsoever. It offends me that a woman who loves and marries a man who is already married, in accordance with the laws and traditions of her people, should be denied the rights that other woman have in marriage. That she should have to remain his mistress and give up any of the legal benefits marriage brings. That she has no legal protection if things go sour.

 

[Iwojima]

You are being silly if you think a few nut jobs' ideas on how to get rid off AIDS forms ANY part of a culture.

It is myth, simple as that.

Once again. Cause and effect.

I did not say that it formed part of the culture, but rather the myth (effect) came about as the result a cultural belief system (cause) that encourages individuals to believe some dodgy authority who feeds them superstition and nonsense and they lap it up despite living in an at least semi-rational society where such things have been thoroughly debunked. It just an example of how cultures that are stuck in the past can result in such stupidity in their members.

 

[Slootvreter]

And power, don't forget power!
Even in cultures where polygamy is allowed, it is not common and indicates power and status. The more wives JZ has the more status he has too.
Most african men you meet, if married, will only have one wife, unless they are people of power. It's all about status.

Well at least JZ can feed all his wives...