AIDS shower boy Zuma set to tie the knot for a fifth time

[Nod]

Well at least JZ can feed all his wives...

... with our tax money

I don't believe that he earns enough to keep 4 (5) woman financially happy.

 

[sox63]

Once again. Cause and effect.

I did not say that it formed part of the culture, but rather the myth (effect) came about as the result a cultural belief system (cause) that encourages individuals to believe some dodgy authority who feeds them superstition and nonsense and they lap it up despite living in an at least semi-rational society where such things have been thoroughly debunked. It just an example of how cultures that are stuck in the past can result in such stupidity in their members.

As you have pointed out, if they consult the dodgy type, then what do you expect? The same goes for all "cultures", that is how cults are formed in the modern world to make an example.

As I type the above, I realise that you probably have little or no understanding of African culture and thus simply will not understand. You have your pre-conceived stereotypes and have come to believe them. And here I am, someone who lives the culture, tells you that is not the way things are, and yet you still maintain that what you think is the norm is true.

 

[Slootvreter]

... with our tax money

I don't believe that he earns enough to keep 4 (5) woman financially happy.

And their children...

 

[Hoof-Hearted]

This is NOT Zulu culture.
These are the actions of a leader who was showing increasing signs of mental deterioration. It was/is not traditional in any way. Unless you think that torturing and murdering black people while having a braai is a part of Afrikaner culture and tradition because it happened during apartheid. It's not. There is nothing cultural or traditional about it.
.

Are we talking about JZ or Shaka here?
In any case the torture and murders during apartheid were not only perpetrated by Afrikaners ...so not an Afrikaner culture as such, however I would say that the practice was part of the culture of apartheid. That's over now... things have moved on

You mean the same Dan Wylie who says:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/may/22/rorycarroll.mainsection
That Dan Wylie?
.

correct.... same dude. Interesting, different perspective to the norm

Well this thread has mostly been about polygamy and peoples negative reaction to it. Obviously some cultural / traditional practices should not be tolerated. Female circumcision, for example, stoning someone to death, for example are traditions which should rightly be outlawed. Polygamy is not one of them, is not a problem.

Problem is people tend to use their "culture" selectively as an excuse for their indiscretions. What I was trying to illustrate with the Shaka/JZ analogy is that culture means different things to different people and shouldn't be used and an excuse for one's action. To JZ it means it's open season on any woman wearing revealing clothing, yet the origins of the "culture" he refers to would have punished this kind of behaviour.
Same goes for polygamy... if the majority of the world (of which we profess to be so much a part of ) frowns on the practice, why is it promoted in SA? All in the name of "culture" or "tradition"?

Where do we draw the line? Polygamy is not a problem for whom?

 

[Iwojima]

As you have pointed out, if they consult the dodgy type, then what do you expect? The same goes for all "cultures", that is how cults are formed in the modern world to make an example.

As I type the above, I realise that you probably have little or no understanding of African culture and thus simply will not understand. You have your pre-conceived stereotypes and have come to believe them. And here I am, someone who lives the culture, tells you that is not the way things are, and yet you still maintain that what you think is the norm is true.

..and I've come to realise that you will not accept that current African culture/norms are the primary cause for the situation that Africa finds itself in at the moment and that it is also the reason why it will never be taken seriously when it appears to be populated with individuals who seem to be confused about which century we are living in.

The animals on the farm are walking on their hind legs and are wearing human clothes, but are still behaving like animals when it suites them and all the while complaining about how much they despise the humans and their ways. Not a racial jibe at all, but something I took away from Animal Farm by George Orwell.

 

[Slootvreter]

..and I've come to realise that you will not accept that current African culture/norms are the primary cause for the situation that Africa finds itself in at the moment and are also the reason why it will never be taken seriously when it appears to be populated with individuals who seem to be confused about which century we are living in.

+1 +1 +1 +1 +1 I could not have said it better!!

 

[sox63]

..and I've come to realise that you will not accept that current African culture/norms are the primary cause for the situation that Africa finds itself in at the moment and are also the reason why it will never be taken seriously when it appears to be populated with individuals who seem to be confused about which century we are living in.

The animals on the farm are walking on their hind legs and are wearing human clothes, but are still behaving like animals when it suites them and all the while complaining about how much they despise the humans and their ways. Not a racial jibe at all, but something I took away from Animal Farm by George Orwell.

I live by those norms dude and I'm doing okay if I say so myself and many others. And how is it the cuase of the challanges that Africa finds itself? Crime, desease, corruption, how can any of these be attributed to being cuased by a culture, any culture, never mind african. As they are universal challenges, but are more widespread in Africa.

 

[Fuma]

You have your pre-conceived stereotypes and have come to believe them. And here I am, someone who lives the culture, tells you that is not the way things are, and yet you still maintain that what you think is the norm is true.

Believe you me, there are plenty of people like that, always will be.

Crime, desease, corruption, how can any of these be attributed to being caused by a culture, any culture, never mind african. As they are universal challenges, but are more widespread in Africa.

Basically he doesn't recognize any African culture, but expects Africans to recognizes his. Some things will never change I'm afraid.

 

[Claymore]

"What sort of Western values are we talking about here? And why are they better?"

Freedom, democracy, and human rights. Lets include deductive reasoning (as per greek scholars), and Rule of Law.

In other words, what we already have in South Africa - especially with regard to democracy and human rights.

It is a law tacked on to cater to specific cultures. The fact that polygamy is not permitted by civil marriage is evidence of this.

Sounds like a good reason to include polygamy in civil marriages then.

Hanging on cultures that breed misinformation; e.g. raping of virgins as a cure for AIDS, harvesting of genitals for muti, fighting other "tribes" (even though they are the same race, i.e. further dividing an already strong racial line), etc; make Africans look like savages and the persistent selective application of their culture, when it suites them, shows how unwilling they are to become part of a "global tribe" (which is key to prosperity these days whether you like it or not)

Er...none of those are legal in South Africa!

If you're going to embrace Western culture (i.e. where the fancy imported Italian clothes and drive the German luxury car) how about giving up slaughtering cows in your back yard, blaming things on spirits and going to pokey witchdoctors for treatment.

As opposed to "Westerners" who blame things on spirits (God) and go to witchdoctors (homeopaths and faith healers) for treatment?

To refer back to the topic, if culturally sanctioned marriage allows polygamy then so too should civil marriage.

Agreed.

 

[Sherbang]

Are we talking about JZ or Shaka here?
In any case the torture and murders during apartheid were not only perpetrated by Afrikaners ...so not an Afrikaner culture as such, however I would say that the practice was part of the culture of apartheid. That's over now... things have moved on


correct.... same dude. Interesting, different perspective to the norm



Problem is people tend to use their "culture" selectively as an excuse for their indiscretions. What I was trying to illustrate with the Shaka/JZ analogy is that culture means different things to different people and shouldn't be used and an excuse for one's action. To JZ it means it's open season on any woman wearing revealing clothing, yet the origins of the "culture" he refers to would have punished this kind of behaviour.
Same goes for polygamy... if the majority of the world (of which we profess to be so much a part of ) frowns on the practice, why is it promoted in SA? All in the name of "culture" or "tradition"?

Where do we draw the line? Polygamy is not a problem for whom?

Life is about diversity. There is no need for us all to be the same and act alike. I agree that using culture as an excuse for indiscretions is wrong, but polygamy is not an indiscretion imo. I wouldn't do it myself, and I would be concerned if my sister wanted to marry into such a relationship, but within a specific cultural context I don't have a problem with it. The fact that the majority of the world frowns upon it is irrelevant. Islam is the fastest growing culture in the world. Should a time come when it is the majority ideology should we then submit to Sharia law just because the majority of the world supported it?

 

[Sherbang]

As opposed to "Westerners" who blame things on spirits (God) and go to witchdoctors (homeopaths and faith healers) for treatment?

Exactly. +1

 

[icyrus]

Life is about diversity. There is no need for us all to be the same and act alike. I agree that using culture as an excuse for indiscretions is wrong, but polygamy is not an indiscretion imo. I wouldn't do it myself, and I would be concerned if my sister wanted to marry into such a relationship, but within a specific cultural context I don't have a problem with it.

Do you have a problem with it if it is applied inequitably?

 

[Sherbang]

Do you have a problem with it if it is applied inequitably?

I'm not sure what you mean...

 

[icyrus]

I'm not sure what you mean...

Do you have a problem with polygamy if it is only allowed to certain demographics?

 

[Sherbang]

Do you have a problem with polygamy if it is only allowed to certain demographics?

I think the law should apply equally to everybody.

 

[icyrus]

I think the law should apply equally to everybody.

Does it currently?

 

[Iwojima]

As opposed to "Westerners" who blame things on spirits (God) and go to witchdoctors (homeopaths and faith healers) for treatment?

Same thing in my eyes (I would elaborate, but this is not the PD section ). They are both equally misguided. Hence me backtracking on using the "Western ideals" phrase.

 

[Iwojima]

Believe you me, there are plenty of people like that, always will be.


Basically he doesn't recognize any African culture, but expects Africans to recognizes his. Some things will never change I'm afraid.

In the words of T-bone, "I am an African" or do you still believe that white folks cannot belong to that exclusively dark skinned club? Isn't the Afrikaans culture unique to Africa and hence an African culture?

 

[sox63]

Do you have a problem with polygamy if it is only allowed to certain demographics?

Slight correction icyrus, is does not limit according do demographics. It is limited in recognising marriages under customary law, and makes no mention of race.

And just for clarity's sake, customary law applies if the following are present:

If said custom is • Known to the community, • Followed by the community, and • Enforceable (able to be carried out)

That community could be green and would not make a difference.

 

[icyrus]

Slight correction icyrus, is does not limit according do demographics. It is limited in recognising marriages under customary law, and makes no mention of race.

Neither did I.

To cut through the noise: can a Zulu woman have multiple husbands?