AIDS shower boy Zuma set to tie the knot for a fifth time

[sox63]

The Afrikaaner population is minute in comparison, "native" only to SA and thus does not contribute much to the African problem.

You still have to answer my question regarding culture and the problems faced by this continent.

 

[Iwojima]

You still have to answer my question regarding culture and the problems faced by this continent.

Sorry, must have missed it. Care to repeat it for my benefit?

 

[sox63]

I live by those norms dude and I'm doing okay if I say so myself and many others. And how is it the cuase of the challanges that Africa finds itself? Crime, desease, corruption, how can any of these be attributed to being cuased by a culture, any culture, never mind african. As they are universal challenges, but are more widespread in Africa.

Here it is again...

 

[Sherbang]

The Afrikaaner population is minute in comparison, "native" only to SA and thus does not contribute much to the African problem.

The Afrikaaner population is minute in comparison to what?

 

[shadowfox]

Actually, the bible specifically allows multiple wives and many of the central characters had multiple wives.

For example

In Exodus 21:10, a man can marry an infinite amount of women without any limits to how many he can marry.
In 2 Samuel 5:13; 1 Chronicles 3:1-9, 14:3, King David had six wives and numerous concubines.
In 1 Kings 11:3, King Solomon had 700 wives and 300 concubines.
In 2 Chronicles 11:21, King Solomon's son Rehoboam had 18 wives and 60 concubines.
In Deuteronomy 21:15 "If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons...."

http://www.biblicalpolygamy.com/ for more

Wow ... awesome ... I hope you realise that you are quoting Old Testament passages there?

Christianity (from the word Xριστός "Christ") is a monotheistic religion[1] centered on the life and teachings of Jesus as presented in the New Testament.

- taken from Wikipedia

Mind you ... even among Christians there is argument for polygamy - but they're a very, very small minority ....

 

[Fuma]

Wow ... awesome ... I hope you realise that you are quoting Old Testament passages there?

Good point. I'm no bible/religion expert, but is the old testament irrelevant to the new one? I mean do some of the things in the old testament contradict the new one's?

 

[shadowfox]

Good point. I'm no bible/religion expert, but is the old testament irrelevant to the new one? I mean do some of the things in the old testament contradict the new one's?

Haven't looked at the Bible in years ... so I can't really answer that I'm agnostic these days anyways. I just felt compelled to point that out though. I'm sure there are some contradictions between the two anyways.

Based on what I've read so far though, especially with regards to polygamy, a lot of different viewpoints - even in the Bible. The practice of polygamy was obvisouly allowed in the Old Testament, but Christianity was only established (as a religion) after the death of Christ (or his ascendance, if you will).

Chances are, that it was affected by the fact that Christianity started with its major footholds in Greece and Rome, where polygamy wasn't allowed. Could have been different had Christianity flourished in then Palestine.

But I digress ... we were talking about Zuma and I've long since lost track of where this discussion was actually headed ... but I'm trying to keep up. We should maybe leave aside moral questions (this being Africa, there are going to be too many cultural/religion/race values clashing), and rather focus on the financial impact. He has a 5th wife coming, and from what I read lobola's been paid for 3 more - he has 18 children which I'm sure support needs to be paid for. The question here is ... who's going to be footing the final bill?

 

[Sherbang]

He has a 5th wife coming, and from what I read lobola's been paid for 3 more - he has 18 children which I'm sure support needs to be paid for. The question here is ... who's going to be footing the final bill?

I don't know where you read about the 3 more, can you give me a reference?

Also, although this is his 5th wife, he actually has 3 wives. He divorced his 2nd wife (Nkosazana Dlamini-Zuma) and his third wife Kate Mantsho Zuma committed suicide in December 2000, leaving a note describing her marriage to him as "24 years of hell"!!! His first wife Sizakele Khumalo is hardly ever seen as she stays out on his rural home.

As for who will foot the bill... I assume JZ gets a salary just like everyone else. How he spends his money is his business. I can't see how the 'tax payer' will be footing the bill except in that they will be paying his salary, should he be elected, just like every other person in government.

 

[Sherbang]

Wow ... awesome ... I hope you realise that you are quoting Old Testament passages there?

I know, but there is nothing in the new testament which overturns this and says polygamy is unlawful.

 

[shadowfox]

My bad - I forgot about the divorce and suicide ...

Here's your reference: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_Zuma

 

[shadowfox]

I know, but there is nothing in the new testament which overturns this and says polygamy is unlawful.

Several leaders of the early Christian church spoke out against polygamy ...

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/polygame.html

1. Justin Martyr (c.160) rebukes the Jews for allowing polygamy:


"Your imprudent and blind masters [i.e., Jewish teachers] even until this time permit each man to have four or five wives. And if anyone sees a beautiful woman and desires to have her, they quote the doings of Jacob." [ANF, vol. 1, p. 266]



2. Irenaeus (c.180) condemns the Gnostics for, among other things, polygamy:


"Others, again, following upon Basilides and Carpocrates, have introduced promiscuous intercourse and a plurality of wives..." [ANF, vol. 1, p.353]



3. Tertullian (c.207) was also explicit:


"Chapter II.-Marriage Lawful, But Not Polygamy. We do not indeed forbid the union of man and woman, blest by God as the seminary of the human race, and devised for the replenishment of the earth and the furnishing of the world, and therefore permitted, yet Singly. For Adam was the one husband of Eve, and Eve his one wife, one woman, one rib. (ANF: Tertullian, To His Wife)




4. Methodius (cf.290) was clear on the issue, arguing that it had stopped at the time of the Prophets:


"The contracting of marriage with several wives had been done away with from the times of the prophets. For we read, 'Do not go after your lusts, but refrain yourself from your appetites'...And in another place, 'Let your fountain be blessed and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.' This plainly forbids a plurality of wives." [ANF, vol. 6, p.312]




5 The Pseudo-Clementine Literature boasts about how St. Thomas taught the Parthians [i.e., an Iranian culture] to abandon polygamy:


"But I shall give a still stronger proof of the matters in hand. For, behold, scarcely seven years have yet passed since the advent of the righteous and true Prophet; and in the course of these, inert of all nations coming to Judaea, and moved both by the signs and miracles Which they saw, and by the grandeur of His doctrine, received His faith; and then going back to their own countries, they rejected the lawless rites of the Gentiles, and their incestuous marriages. In short, among the Parthians-as Thomas, who is preaching the Gospel amongst them, has written to us-not many now are addicted to polygamy; nor among the Medes do many throw their dead to dogs; nor are the Persians pleased with intercourse with their mothers, or incestuous marriages with their daughters; nor do the Susian women practise the adulteries that were allowed them; nor has Genesis been able to force those into crimes whom the teaching of religion restrained. (ANF 8: "Book IX: Chapter XXIX.-The Gospel More Powerful Than 'Genesis.'"]



6. The Council of Neocaesarea a.d. 315 (circa) refers to a 'purification period' for polygamists. By that time, sinners had to 'sit out' of Church activities until they had demonstrated reformation. If a sin showed up on this list of canons, it was considered a 'bad sin'--and polygamy shows up here:


"Ancient Epitome of Canon III. The time (for doing penance and purification) of polygamists is well known. A zeal for penance may shorten it." [ANF]



7. Basil, Archbishop of Caesarea, mentioned it a number of times in his letters, generally concerning the period for exclusion from church for polygamists, calling it 'limited fornication'(!):


"IV. In the case of trigamy and polygamy they laid down the same rule, in proportion, as in the case of digamy; namely one year for digamy (some authorities say two years); for trigamy men are separated for three and often for four years; but this is no longer described as marriage at all, but as polygamy; nay rather as limited fornication. It is for this reason that the Lord said to the woman of Samaria, who had five husbands, "he whom thou now hast is not thy husband." He does not reckon those who had exceeded the limits of a second marriage as worthy of the title of husband or wife. In cases of trigamy we have accepted a seclusion of five years, not by the canons, but following the precept of our predecessors. Such offenders ought not to be altogether prohibited from the privileges of the Church; they should be considered deserving of hearing after two or three years, and afterwards of being permitted to stand in their place; but they must be kept from the communion of the good gift, and only restored to the place of communion after showing some fruit of repentance. [ANF: (Canonica Prima.)To Amphilochius, concerning the Canons. Letter CLXXXVIII written c.347.]

If you want to read through the entire page - you'll see what I meant by different viewpoints in the bible ... there are verses where the practice of polygamy preached against.

 

[Sherbang]

Several leaders of the early Christian church spoke out against polygamy ...

http://www.christian-thinktank.com/polygame.html



If you want to read through the entire page - you'll see what I meant by different viewpoints in the bible ... there are verses where the practice of polygamy preached against.

Well, yes, ok, but these are commentaries on the bible, only one actual quote that can be found in the bible and it is ambiguous at best.
But this is really irrelevant. If we're going to say a man cannot be a polygamist and a christian (which is how this offshoot discussion started) then we must also say a man cannot be divorced and be a christian, which no-one really seems to be too worried about

 

[Slaine73]

Like I said before, the Bible it self does not say anything against polygamy. In the Old Testament it was the norm, later, in the New Testament you read that now there was only one wife. But nowhere does it say that now polygamy was wrong. Human society came to a point where it became, better, acceptable, what ever to have only one wife and as with many other things it became a tradition and later law. One or more wifes is not a aspect of religion really.

 

[shadowfox]

Well, yes, ok, but these are commentaries on the bible, only one actual quote that can be found in the bible and it is ambiguous at best.
But this is really irrelevant. If we're going to say a man cannot be a polygamist and a christian (which is how this offshoot discussion started) then we must also say a man cannot be divorced and be a christian, which no-one really seems to be too worried about

Heh ... mind you - I'm not really arguing with you. I was raised to see monogamy as the right thing to do - but that doesn't mean I'm going to run up and tell someone practicing polygamy what he's doing is wrong ... since he was raised that way and from his point of view I'm probably a bit strange.

I think the whole discussion was derailed at some point. I wonder what the point was that the OP was trying to make in any case. Any comments there?

 

[JungleBoy]

You referred to their cultural laws as being native to the land and then admitted they are not. Same difference.


Islam is not a progressive culture/religion and is also stuck 2000 years in the past. Not a very good example.


It is a law tacked on to cater to specific cultures. The fact that polygamy is not permitted by civil marriage is evidence of this.


Hanging on cultures that breed misinformation; e.g. raping of virgins as a cure for AIDS, harvesting of genitals for muti, fighting other "tribes" (even though they are the same race, i.e. further dividing an already strong racial line), etc; make Africans look like savages and the persistent selective application of their culture, when it suites them, shows how unwilling they are to become part of a "global tribe" (which is key to prosperity these days whether you like it or not)


I hate to backtrack, but maybe I shouldn't haven't used Western values, but modern practices instead. If you're going to embrace Western culture (i.e. where the fancy imported Italian clothes and drive the German luxury car) how about giving up slaughtering cows in your back yard, blaming things on spirits and going to pokey witchdoctors for treatment.

I'm not saying people should give up their culture, but rather update it and remove the nonsense that belongs in the past. Carry on with the harmless cultural practices that don't have to be catered for specially when laws are being drawn up and remove the snotty double standards that the rest of us have to endure. To refer back to the topic, if culturally sanctioned marriage allows polygamy then so too should civil marriage.

You can't debate for and against, at least not on the same thread or post for that matter!

 

[JungleBoy]

Thats right, get uppity and play the race card. A classic move that the desperately unintelligent and ignorant turn to. I have not made one negative comment about a specific race of people so kindly simmer down and crawl back under your rock.

...and now back to people who I can actually debate with:

The Afrikaaner population is minute in comparison, "native" only to SA and thus does not contribute much to the African problem.

and the Zulu population is spread across Africa

 

[DJ...]

Now hang on - I heard on 702 that his marriage ceremony is expected to cost around R40m, which will be wholly funded by the ANC. Is this true or did someone on 702 cook this story up? Disgraceful if it is true, and disgraceful on 702's part if it isn't...

 

[blunomore]

Oh wow blunomore, you're just so witty today, you should be on ztv...
Someone wanted to know who would want to marry zuma so I pointed out that millions would. Doesn't mean I want to, doesn't mean I support his political ambitions. I do support his right to marry whoever he wants though.

No ... you were waxing lyrical about how wonderful he is.

 

[Sherbang]

No ... you were waxing lyrical about how wonderful he is.

Um... No, that's unlikely as I don't think he is wonderful at all. And i don't wax. And even if i did i'm not lyrical in any way.
Show me one post where I said he is wonderful or anything like that

 

[Frankie]

Heh ... mind you - I'm not really arguing with you. I was raised to see monogamy as the right thing to do - but that doesn't mean I'm going to run up and tell someone practicing polygamy what he's doing is wrong ... since he was raised that way and from his point of view I'm probably a bit strange.

I think the whole discussion was derailed at some point. I wonder what the point was that the OP was trying to make in any case. Any comments there?

Without getting into arguments regarding polygamy being acceptable in a religious or cultural context, I think most people in the civilised world consider it backwards, and as we have seen in this thread it is a form of gender discrimination.
It sure happens in some civilised countries (I think Mormons) but its frowned on by the general public.

Now add this to dancing in the public singing that disgusting "give me my machine gun" song, his co accused in jail for a corrupt relationship with him, his dimwitted defence in his rape trial, his AIDS counter measures (shower), his fight to exclude evidence while claiming his innocence, his rape of the justice system, infidelity (cheats on multiple wives with HIV POS young girl), ............

There's no ways that this would be considered State President material in most other countries, and it will be an embarrassment to us all.