"All religions should be equally disregarded or hated"

Prawnapple

Expert Member
Joined
May 18, 2015
Messages
1,986
Why do we need a book? Because it codifies what we believe to be the propper way of being.
Some people just get this automatically.
(that's the claim in the verse and yours) I think it is learned in society in the specific culture, culture need these stories to exist.
Some people will justify their own wrong behaviour to themselves, then having a book helps.
Some people use those books themselves to justify wrong behaviour. There are self-help books and inspirational books more helpful than the bible, but to each their own I guess.

Question Riet, I've noticed you can see both sides of the fence in these situations. Regarding how to perceive the world, determinism vs free will, religion vs irreligion. What makes you willingly choose the one side over the other? Example, why would you choose to believe in the bible or in some form of the supernatural rather than be sceptical about it?
 

FrankCastle

Executive Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2010
Messages
7,374
I've worked in a few Muslim majority countries and the difference between Senegal and Indonesia versus Oman and UAE versus Saudi Arabia is very different.

I'm currently in Indonesia, the biggest Muslim populated country in the world, and like Senegal (97% muslim) never have you met a nicer bunch of people who live happily alongside others and keep themselves to themselves. A few of the locals are Christian and Hindu and no-one is in anyones face about anything. The Muslim lads toddle off to pray five times a day and for the rest of us there's a beer stall at the site gates which the Muslim folks have no interest in and would never dare to suggest it gets removed or closed.

Which is different again to Oman and UAE where other religions and lifestyles are tolerated but within their rules. And of course, Saudi is full on and tolerates no other religions or lifestyles.

Quite difficult to categorise as you have when the spectrum goes from one end to the other.
And not surprisingly you cant get more secular than Indonesia and Senegal. Concept of secularism is largely rejected by mainstream Sunnis. Aceh province located within Indonesia does uphold sharia law, so dont go there :p
In fact right here in SA theres a push among muslims to get Al Jama-ah party to hold more seats in Parliament. They fully endorse shariah law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jama-ah
 

Spizz

Goat Botherer
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
25,642
And not surprisingly you cant get more secular than Indonesia and Senegal. Concept of secularism is largely rejected by mainstream Sunnis. Aceh province located within Indonesia does uphold sharia law, so dont go there :p
In fact right here in SA theres a push among muslims to get Al Jama-ah party to hold more seats in Parliament. They fully endorse shariah law.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al_Jama-ah
Wow. Thanks for the heads up. We’ve got a job starting in Aceh soon and I was thinking it would be a nice place to go :erm:

But they can strike me off the list for that place I’m afraid. No beer means no me.
 

MEIOT

Expert Member
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
2,855
Wow. Thanks for the heads up. We’ve got a job starting in Aceh soon and I was thinking it would be a nice place to go :erm:

But they can strike me off the list for that place I’m afraid. No beer means no me.
I'd imagine it to be a nice place to die. Especially this time of year.
 

Scary_Turtle

Expert Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2015
Messages
1,470
Are you being obtuse?
7 mil years ago we did not have homo sapiens on the planet.

My point is that religion started at same time that we have become aware enough to question our existence.
Ok so we remove the entire evolution of man ...... to homo sapiens 300 000 years ago and 40 000 years ago they find lion-man we did without religion for 250 000 years.

Even if you change it to 200 000, 100 000, 50 000 years it is a long time we survived without religion.

Survival will still be the number 1 human concept whether its 7million years ago or 7 million years in the future. Religions will come and go as most of our new religions are only 2500ish years old.

As a whole I dont think people need/needed religion at all they need groups for survival, the easiest way to start a group is to bring meaning to the unexplained even if you have no clue (cults, etc).
 

rietrot

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 26, 2016
Messages
18,526
Some people use those books themselves to justify wrong behaviour. There are self-help books and inspirational books more helpful than the bible, but to each their own I guess.

Question Riet, I've noticed you can see both sides of the fence in these situations. Regarding how to perceive the world, determinism vs free will, religion vs irreligion. What makes you willingly choose the one side over the other? Example, why would you choose to believe in the bible or in some form of the supernatural rather than be sceptical about it?
Because if you look at all sides objectively, it becomes very clear quite quickly which one is correct.
 

surface

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2006
Messages
7,907
Question Riet, I've noticed you can see both sides of the fence in these situations. Regarding how to perceive the world, determinism vs free will, religion vs irreligion. What makes you willingly choose the one side over the other? Example, why would you choose to believe in the bible or in some form of the supernatural rather than be sceptical about it?
I think you should pay more attention to what christians say here. If I understand correctly, this holds good for all of them that defend it here. Their father was a muslim and mother buddhist and despite all this, they read the bible, analyzed it and converted to christianity so it is not like they were shooed in to christianity from the birth.
 

Prawnapple

Expert Member
Joined
May 18, 2015
Messages
1,986
I think you should pay more attention to what christians say here. If I understand correctly, this holds good for all of them that defend it here. Their father was a muslim and mother buddhist and despite all this, they read the bible, analyzed it and converted to christianity so it is not like they were shooed in to christianity from the birth.
Who's father, what now? Not sure what you're saying here.
 

Bobbin

Executive Member
Joined
Oct 22, 2009
Messages
7,041
Are you advocating that each person must for themselves decide what "right" and "wrong" is?
That what you think "right" is is "right", and what you think "wrong" is is "wrong", and that everyone's "right" and "wrong" will correlate?
That we must each be a law unto ourselves?
Ha.
Why then do we need Judges and Law Courts?

<edit>
Also.
Just because something is legal/illegal, does not make it "right/wrong".
An example of this is Adultery.
Adultery is not illegal (and therefore legal), but it is "wrong", no matter how consensual the "steeking" is.
My sort of rudimentary stance on all of this is to try understand what the active or passive action is/was and who the aggressor is/was. i.e. in the case of adultery it is a breaking of an unwritten "contract" between monogamous partners, thus the active "aggressor" in this case is the one cheating. It wouldn't be a moral concern however if all were consenting.

As a trying individualist, I apply this thinking to everything in order to understand the difference between freedom of association vs. collectivism. In my view anybody can do anything they wish, provided they do not coerce or aggress anyone else.

So be a Christian or a Muslim or anything, but don't enforce the ideology on anyone outside of your association (Which works both ways). Because then individualists like me will step in as guardian of the non-aggression principle. However, even those who are Christian or Muslim or whatever can do the same - just because one follows an ideology doesn't mean they are collectivist. The distinction is really how they enact socially which is a moral concern irrespective of their ideology.

I tend to think traditional unassociated Christians, if you will, get it mostly right though. There can certainly be collectivist zealots in their ranks, but there are a lot of individualist tendencies in Christianity too. Especially those who don't necessarily need a church to worship, take individual responsibility as per Jesus' "mantra", the golden rule, turn the other cheek but approving self-defense etc...

I suspect it is that individualist interpretation of Christianity that made it so powerful. But then of course it got split and denominated to hell and gone.

Collectivism is the devil :p And I bring individualist wrath to them thugs.
 
Last edited:

TysonRoux

Executive Member
Joined
Aug 7, 2012
Messages
8,162
Wow. Thanks for the heads up. We’ve got a job starting in Aceh soon and I was thinking it would be a nice place to go :erm:

But they can strike me off the list for that place I’m afraid. No beer means no me.
I worked near Jakarta for a few months and found the people quite friendly and welcoming - more moderate muslims - enjoyed my stay.

My stay there was around the time that they had riots and burnt down Chinese businesses with the owners inside, but I didn't see any of that.
 

Spizz

Goat Botherer
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
25,642
I worked near Jakarta for a few months and found the people quite friendly and welcoming - more moderate muslims - enjoyed my stay.

My stay there was around the time that they had riots and burnt down Chinese businesses with the owners inside, but I didn't see any of that.
Indonesians are great. I’m typing this having a beer sitting in a bar in Banjarmasin in Borneo. Big Muslim city but all is cool as they let you do your thing while they do theirs.

I’m escaping the fires in Borneo so flying to Jakarta tomorrow to visit some mates and attend a leaving do on Saturday before flying home on Sunday :p
 

cheesus

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 23, 2019
Messages
290
Seeing as the atheist of the 20th century killed 100 million people in 80 years I do believe you don't have the moral high ground.
 

Splinter

Honorary Master
Joined
Oct 14, 2011
Messages
23,752
Seeing as the atheist of the 20th century killed 100 million people in 80 years I do believe you don't have the moral high ground.
Strange that an ostensibly religious person would have a nick that seems to mock/play on the name Jesus.
 
Top