ANC & Democracy?

[kilo39]

The African National Congress, which declined a Democratic Alliance invitation to participate in Thursday's democracy march, is to stage its own demonstration next week.
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She said in her speech that Thursday's taxi violence was linked to recent activities organised to destabilise the multiparty government.
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Later, Adendorf phoned the Cape Times to say his group had been pepper-sprayed by a "racist" DA member: "You can come and lick my face if you don't believe me," he said, then asked the Cape Times not to mention he had been at the march.
ANC to organise own 'democracy' march October 27 2006

What is the issue with the ANC and democracy in this country? It would seem our greatest impediment to moving or being in our great democracy IS the anc. It seems that this government goes out of its way to make life and things difficult for ALL south africans while preaching their great democracy but undermining it with sms campaigns, lies, blatant lies, and corruption.

Somehow we have inherited a government little different from the past; they even look the same, in their dokies and dark suits.

Perhaps many lived in exile, and don't know any better? The country has moved on but they were never here to experience it?

What is the disconnect and why does this government do its best to undermine this great country SA; with their non-delivery, lies, corruption and thievery?

Plus they are never actually around to answer questions, um, "not available for comment" seems the standard response.

And our president? What was his name again?

And - the great anc heroes, and even Mbeki's grand words have little to do with the happenings, and reality in this country.

Why doesn't the ANC live up to its great name?

I remind any ANC stalwarts of this comment by Oliver Tambo:

We have got to move away from the concept of race and color because that is what apartheid is. We cannot end apartheid if we retain these concepts. We might even have a white President. I would not hesitate to vote for a white person as President if I thought he was the best person for the job.
Tambo Interview, Oct. 27, 1986

 

[Alan]

I do pity you Kilo. It must be tough accepting failure or realising you were wrong. Just like the Nationalists and Commies did in the early 90's.

 

[Alan]

Why doesn't the ANC live up to its great name?

They are living up to their name.

 

[kilo39]

I do pity you Kilo. It must be tough accepting failure or realising you were wrong. Just like the Nationalists and Commies did in the early 90's.

Don't know about the commies... but if it wasn't for the nats (a rightwing party) I wouldn't have to be thinking/or dealing with any of this in the first place.

 

[Alan]

I suppose you are right about the commies( a left wing party ). They are still around, most masquerading as liberals. Personally I don't know if you could say S.A would have turned out too differently . Saying that the N.P definitely stuffed the country up in their own personal way.

 

[kilo39]

I suppose you are right about the commies( a left wing party ). They are still around, most masquerading as liberals. Personally I don't know if you could say S.A would have turned out too differently . Saying that the N.P definitely stuffed the country up in their own personal way.

Nats along with GB, and all rightwing bigots all believe one thing and follow the same book; versions of the old testament.

Said it before: people like you cause the problem then berate others for trying to fix it. I would really like to know your take on the world? Would it be Orania, or Canada? Where bigots like you are directing their ill thoughts to the same ill intent. Troublemakers wherever you go. About the same level as our average crim.

 

[Doges]

The ANC only believes in Democracy as long as they are winning. What's happening in Cape Town attest to this fact....
Rather typical of a liberation organisation who cannot adapt to the realities of real democracy, just look at Zimbabwe to see what happens if such an organisation realizes it's hold on power is slipping.....

 

[IamCanadian]

Said it before: people like you cause the problem then berate others for trying to fix it. I would really like to know your take on the world? Would it be Orania, or Canada? Where bigots like you are directing their ill thoughts to the same ill intent. Troublemakers wherever you go. About the same level as our average crim.

Kilo,

What's your malfunction?

You yourself seem to be a part of the problem.

Let me explain. You started the thread very well and then you just fell apart. You remind me of someone who meets a gorgeous woman and then you ask her to marry you in 10 minutes. And then when she turns you down, you get all puffed up and angry. Try to relax.

I agree with your original statement, but what you fail to see is what alanf85 is trying to tell you. As long as you have the ANC in power or something like them, SA is doomed to mediocity at best and tragedy ala Zimbabwe at worst.

What you need to do is start a movement to remove the ANC and their ilk from power and then perhaps change can be affected. If you can't do that quit hammering out your feelings on the computer and move to the west where, although things are not perfect, you can still get on with your life in relative safety and you won't have to worry that you will be robbed, mugged, killed or raped every other day.

Peace.

 

[nthdimension]

What is the issue with the ANC and democracy in this country? It would seem our greatest impediment to moving or being in our great democracy IS the anc. It seems that this government goes out of its way to make life and things difficult for ALL south africans while preaching their great democracy but undermining it with sms campaigns, lies, blatant lies, and corruption.

It's not the ANC per se. Although one of their specific problems is being unable to acknowledge current criminal behaviour on the part of someone who helped fight the previous government. The lying, corruption and general abuse of power is standard fare for political parties all over the world. And that includes numerous first world countries. The problem gets out of control when one political party has too much power. I have no doubt the DA would also abuse their power if they were in the same position as the ANC. Organisations like the ACDP or Freedom Front would probably be even worse.

Don't think the DA doesn't lust after power or that they'd do a spectacular job if they had it. I want them to have enough to to counterbalance the ANC, but I don't want them having the kind of majority the ANC has anymore than I want the ANC to have it.

Don't know about the commies... but if it wasn't for the nats (a rightwing party) I wouldn't have to be thinking/or dealing with any of this in the first place.

The Afrikaner Nationalists were idiots. Australia was able to maintain policies intended to systematically destroy the aboriginal people with almost no international protest because they carried out their policies subtly and quietly. If South Africa had not been so blatant so they could have had thriving international trade which would have allowed them to finance their pogrom without wrecking the economy.

 

[Koos Custodiet]

What is the issue with the ANC and democracy in this country? It would seem our greatest impediment to moving or being in our great democracy IS the anc.

You don't understand.

Why would the ANC want *democracy*? The ANC wants to rule, the way to do it is to preach democracy while doing just what they want, and it works.

Koos

Edit : My apologies, some investigation shows that the Lenin quote (I deleted it, can't figure out how to do strikeout) is false.

 

[Alan]

Nats along with GB, and all rightwing bigots all believe one thing and follow the same book; versions of the old testament.

Said it before: people like you cause the problem then berate others for trying to fix it. I would really like to know your take on the world? Would it be Orania, or Canada? Where bigots like you are directing their ill thoughts to the same ill intent. Troublemakers wherever you go. About the same level as our average crim.

Even if you were correct( I know that is ludicrous but stay with me) your only solution seems to be to give in to those problemd(ie: terrorists). Groveling at their feet saying take what you want, please don't hurt me and they did it to you not me won't solve it. If the damage is done you got to face the consequence.

There was a lot of "trouble" long before the phantom "right wing bible nutters" came along. Where do you suppose that started.

 

[kilo39]

IamCanadian=QUOTE

What's your malfunction?

You yourself seem to be a part of the problem.

Let me explain. You started the thread very well and then you just fell apart. You remind me of someone who meets a gorgeous woman and then you ask her to marry you in 10 minutes. And then when she turns you down, you get all puffed up and angry. Try to relax.

Um, excuse me, if you look at the post count you will see I opened the thread, and then made 2 comments in reply to alanf, namely:
Don't know about the commies... but if it wasn't for the nats (a rightwing party) I wouldn't have to be thinking/or dealing with any of this in the first place.

and:
Nats along with GB, and all rightwing bigots all believe one thing and follow the same book; versions of the old testament.

Said it before: people like you cause the problem then berate others for trying to fix it. I would really like to know your take on the world? Would it be Orania, or Canada? Where bigots like you are directing their ill thoughts to the same ill intent. Troublemakers wherever you go. About the same level as our average crim.

The above is hardly "falling apart."

I am blaming you fekkers for causing the problem in the first place with your policies of exclusion, and superiority. Now let's see: you cause the problem, then run away, then have the balls to come back here (virtually of course) and spread more of your malcontent and diatribe - and the song remains the same; just as exclusionary and superior as it ever was. What is your issue? Taking it that I started the thread, and in terms of what is says; we the whiteys are well-aware of the issues in this country without some fekker from canada who ran away in the first place and now seems as unhappy there as here. Who has the issues here?

I agree with your original statement, but what you fail to see is what alanf85 is trying to tell you. As long as you have the ANC in power or something like them, SA is doomed to mediocity at best and tragedy ala Zimbabwe at worst.

The great tragedy with the anc is they have universal goals (in the charter) but they are never displayed here (in this country.) Mbeki stands up once a year and gives a great speech but that seems all he cares to do. It is not the universal ideals of the anc that are the issue, it is their hijacking by elements who have no clue beyond their personal welfare and wallets; much like the creeps that put us here in the first place.

What you need to do is start a movement to remove the ANC and their ilk from power and then perhaps change can be affected. If you can't do that quit hammering out your feelings on the computer and move to the west where, although things are not perfect, you can still get on with your life in relative safety and you won't have to worry that you will be robbed, mugged, killed or raped every other day.

I don't disagree but is that the solution? It seems not because here you are! How are you 'getting on with your life?' You seem to have a severe need to come tell us your point of view. I wonder why?

 

[kilo39]

You don't understand.

Why would the ANC want *democracy*? The ANC wants to rule, the way to do it is to preach democracy while doing just what they want, and it works.

Lenin said Preach true democracy while you make haste to ruthlessly make sure that you sieze all power for yourself.

Where do you think the ANC got their political ideologies from?

If you read any of the history of the anc; or the philosophies of someone like Mandela you would see the this ruling anc is a long way from those ideals (mandela, or even the ideals of Mbeki) and that it is the problem here; not some long dead marxist whose philosophies/policies are equally dead.

And BTW: I don't find that quote anywhere so if you have a better source please post here.

 

[kilo39]

Even if you were correct( I know that is ludicrous but stay with me) your only solution seems to be to give in to those problemd(ie: terrorists). Groveling at their feet saying take what you want, please don't hurt me and they did it to you not me won't solve it. If the damage is done you got to face the consequence.

There was a lot of "trouble" long before the phantom "right wing bible nutters" came along. Where do you suppose that started.

No, that is the difference between you and I; you have yet to point me at any solution to past problems (solved your way.) For instance:

Vietnam
Central America
and now Afghanistan, Iraq.

 

[Alan]

If you read any of the history of the anc; or the philosophies of someone like Mandela you would see the this ruling anc is a long way from those ideals (mandela, or even the ideals of Mbeki) and that it is the problem here; not some long dead marxist whose philosophies/policies are equally dead.

That is where we disagree. I tried to point this out yesterday. The ANC of the past only propagated those philosophies because it was to their advantage at the time when they were in "opposition". Now that they are in power the ideals no longer have advantages (Freedom of speech and so on) and in fact help the current opposition. So it is no surprise that they are cracking down on them.

The ANC had no intention of sticking to them . They just used it to get into power. Unfortunately your ilk fell for them hook, line and sinker . Hence you are left shocked and dismayed and I frankly am not , because I saw them for what they were right from the beginning - hypocrites.

 

[IamCanadian]

I am blaming you fekkers for causing the problem in the first place with your policies of exclusion, and superiority. Now let's see: you cause the problem, then run away, then have the balls to come back here (virtually of course) and spread more of your malcontent and diatribe - and the song remains the same; just as exclusionary and superior as it ever was. What is your issue? Taking it that I started the thread, and in terms of what is says; we the whiteys are well-aware of the issues in this country without some fekker from canada who ran away in the first place and now seems as unhappy there as here. Who has the issues here?

Kilo,

I never liked the nats and I never liked the racist Afrikaaners. I was in the army with them and looking back I really dispised their racist attitudes.

If you don't like what I have to say then change the channel.

 

[Alan]

No, that is the difference between you and I; you have yet to point me at any solution to past problems (solved your way.) For instance:

Vietnam
Central America
and now Afghanistan, Iraq.

Wait a minute "Vietnam" wasn't that LBJ's war. The last time I checked he was a liberal demorcrat.
What war in Central America. I don't now of any.
We are just in the beginning of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is to soon to say what the final result will be. Ask me again in say maybe 10 years time.

I see you left out Korea, WW2 and Gulf War 1. Gee I wonder why

 

[kilo39]

QUOTE=alanf85
Wait a minute "Vietnam" wasn't that LBJ's war. The last time I checked he was a liberal demorcrat.
What war in Central America. I don't now of any.
We are just in the beginning of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is to soon to say what the final result will be. Ask me again in say maybe 10 years time.

Vietnam is perhaps an unfair accusation mainly cause 'nam wasn't owned by one person/or thing; if we go further back in history to support of the french in nam for instance.

Central America? Surely tongue in cheek? You don't know any? Essentially every single country in central and south america have had internal wars sponsored by the usa. In fact I would say I am shocked you don't know this, and this in itself says any further conversation with you regarding right or leftwingers is a complete waste of time.

The armed forces took power through a junta in charge of the self-appointed National Reorganization Process until 1983. The military government repressed opposition and terrorist leftist groups using harsh illegal measures (the "Dirty War"); thousands of dissidents "disappeared", while the SIDE cooperated with DINA and other South American intelligence agencies, and with the CIA in Operation Condor.
Argentina

In 1986, the Human Rights Commission of El Salvador published a 165-page report on the Mariona men's prison. The report documented the routine use of at least 40 kinds of torture on political prisoners, and that U.S. servicemen often acted as supervisors.
History of El Salvador

The covert war was launched after the Sandinista revolution took control in Nicaragua. Washington's professed fear was that a second Cuba might develop in this Central American nation. In Honduras, proconsul Negroponte's task was to supervise the bases where a terrorist mercenary army - the Contras - was trained, armed and sent to overthrow the Sandinistas.
From Central America to Iraq

... and the list goes ever on. Wars and military regimes supported and financed by the usa. Please get an education before posting here.

We are just in the beginning of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. It is to soon to say what the final result will be. Ask me again in say maybe 10 years time.

Spoken like a true troll (as if war is a solution to anything.)

I see you left out Korea, WW2 and Gulf War 1. Gee I wonder why

And there you have your answer: the above were just wars whereas every other has been unjust. But here you are, preaching your righteousness.

 

[Alan]

Yeah lets ignore Vietnam. Don't want to go through how a self described liberals ran a war.

So you want to get into the nitty-gritty of Central America. Fine then start a thread and lets go into it in depth.

It seems you have shot youself in the foot(excuse the pun). First war is not a solution to anything and the next sentence you claim it is when justified.


Funny how the ones that worked out are now suddenly "justified". You liberals sang a different tune when they broke out. You seem to be covering your tracks.

 

[kilo39]

alanf85
Yeah lets ignore Vietnam. Don't want to go through how a self described liberals ran a war.

Ag please. As always the liberals were trying to sort out the mess created by the republicans. Eisenhower was a republican, it was his mess: Vietnam War

- and it was Nixon (another republican) who ensured the withdrawal.

So you want to get into the nitty-gritty of Central America. Fine then start a thread and lets go into it in depth.

Um, first you tell me you don't know of any wars, now you want to start a thread and go into in depth? Which is it?

It seems you have shot youself in the foot(excuse the pun). First war is not a solution to anything and the next sentence you claim it is when justified.

No I didn't say it was 'justified,' I said 'just.'

Just: guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness: We hope to be just in our understanding of such difficult situations.

Justified: to show a satisfactory reason or excuse for something done. To show (an act, claim, statement, etc.) to be just or right

Big difference, would seem rightwing zealots don't know these subtle differences.

Funny how the ones that worked out are now suddenly "justified". You liberals sang a different tune when they broke out. You seem to be covering your tracks.

And there you have your answer: the above were just wars whereas every other has been unjust. But here you are, preaching your righteousness.