Any ANC supporters on this forum?

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Gaz{M}

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Where in the laws of nature and common sense and economics does it say that a government can only help one race at a time while disadvantaging others?

This is a fallacy. There is no reason why the ANC can't grow the country as a whole except for their incompetence, corruption, laziness and lack of resposibility.
 

siphox

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Essentially thats exactly what it comes down to as that is how it has been implemented. All whites want is equality, no preferential treatment...just equality. Funny...this seems familiar somehow:rolleyes:

Unfortunately having skills means nothing if no one will appoint you because of the colour of your skin....and then government always blames skill shortages for their shortcomings. *sigh*

Then stop living the country and bear the pain of AA and prove to government that you are needed. Don't be passive and whine and whine, change the world. Demonstrate in the streets, do something to prove your case like black people did during apartheid, don't just whine and whine, its irritating.

They don't only blame skill shortage but a lack of employment opportunities due to lack of direct foreign investment.
 

Zenbaas

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Then stop living the country and bear the pain of AA and prove to government that you are needed. Don't be passive and whine and whine, change the world. Demonstrate in the streets, do something to prove your case like black people did during apartheid, don't just whine and whine, its irritating.

They don't only blame skill shortage but a lack of employment opportunities due to lack of direct foreign investment.

Ok...so for my next job interview if I do not get the job I will be sure to toy-toy outside their office to show my disapproval:rolleyes:

prove to government that you are needed
How..? Having more experience and superior skills aren't enough then how exactly do you propose I do that..?

Don't be passive and whine and whine, change the world
...?

Demonstrate in the streets, do something to prove your case like black people did during apartheid, don't just whine and whine, its irritating.
Hahahahaha....ermmm.....that will show them:eek:
 

siphox

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By who?


by who?


Funny, whenever you try to defend the ANC, you unwittingly end up attacking it?

If you agree with me that the scorpions where unconstitutional, therefor you must agree that they had to be sent away. It is judge that said they were. So they to be disbanded, although they were quiet effective in catching the corrupt guys. Since the ANC is the governing party, they had to play a part is disbanding them.

Political meddling was done at a personal bases, not in representation of the ANC, the ANC does not condone corruption.

I am not attacking the ANC, or defending them outright, I am just being balanced here.
 

marine1

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Political meddling was done at a personal bases, not in representation of the ANC, the ANC does not condone corruption.

I am not attacking the ANC, or defending them outright, I am just being balanced here.
That again is not true, the ANC are all bloody corrupt. If they were against corruption they would never have destroyed the SAPS, they would have fired Selebi, they would not have destroyed the Scorpions. The only reason they got rid of the scorpions was because they were going to arrest or prosecute the whole lot of them
 

siphox

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Sipho.

Sorry, my name is not sipho, its siphox.

Firstly, let me tell you that I am happily self-employed and would not have it any other way.

may you tell other whites to stop leaving the country and do as you do, i salute you, you make South Africa better. It appears that unlike blacks, whites have got an option of leaving the country and never coming back.

Secondly, arguing for fairness, is not whining. I'm quite happy with my lot in South Africa. If I wasn't, I would have left long ago.

Not being happy does not result in your leaving the country, you can chose to do many other things.

As I've argued before, but you didn't respond to (no counter argument?) - whites are doing this, but it is leaving established businesses less efficient, and is effectively distorting markets.

Not true, the economy has grown and unemployment has dropped but not so much, this does not indicate that businesses are less efficient. We got the world cup too, this means we have the trust of the world and fifa is aware we can conduct business. Seen the gauteng project.

Personally, I consider this debate over. Like many previous ANC supporters who have voiced their opinions, you choose only to respond to arguments that you can hope to counter, and you don't even do that very well.

I receive tens of responses, and i try to answer all of them fairly.

By the way, I resent been told that I am a whiner.
(1) I am self-employed
(2) I am a committee member of my rate-payers association - active in the exercise of democracy
(3) I am active with a volunteer organization.

This is good, you are doing your bit for your country. you must just appreciate the pain and suffering the blacks went through, then you must acknowledge that something drastic needs to be done.we cant just let blacks to themselves, because as you were affirmed by the apartheid government, we too need the same help, but with BEE you stand to benefit too, unlike the racism of apartheid.

I give a lot more back to this country than most people. If I exercise my right to freedom of speech, I don't wish to be told that I am a whiner.

Sorry.

However, unlike some people, I have standards that I feel must be upheld, and am not willing to support a bunch of self-enriching, corrupt, greedy and racist politicians. That doesn't make me a whiner.

You can do this by not voting ANC, vote DA. Why don't we see whites demonstrating against AA or BEE. You must organize your friends. Show the ANC that you can make a difference. Show them that you are important.You must do it while Zuma is still president of the ANC, he is a peoples person and very approachable. Please do it. I hate seeing you and other whites crying this why in your own country, but you must make your voice to be heard.

If whites people can allow themselves to be smart, they can vote for the ANC in huge numbers, this way the ANC will be less likely to uphold BEE or AA in future and feel that they owe white people something and thought about abolishing AA and BEE will take effect.

Going against my earlier advise, don't vote DA, please, you are wasting your time, they will not come into power, ever. so they will not get a chance to abolish AA or BEE. The ANC is in the driving seat, vote for it and hope to influence change.I mean it.
 

siphox

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So serving 5 months of a 48 month sentence is objective Justice...?
The mind boggles.....:confused:

It is the judge that gave him this sentence,not the ANC. Yes it is object because the case was heard and judged accordingly.
 

shadowfox

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We are not talking about the sentence - or the judgement.

We are talking about the fact that he only served 5 months of his entire sentence. That had nothing to do with the judge.

Plus he was allowed weekends out of prison.

You're telling me you don't see anything fscked up with this picture? If not, its indicative of one of the problems this country currently has
 

Flanders

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As for jobs, the government does not actually create jobs but creates [-]conditions[/-] restrictions for [-]investment[/-] employment.

Fixed.

If whites people can allow themselves to be smart, they can vote for the ANC in huge numbers, this way the ANC will be less likely to uphold BEE or AA in future and feel that they owe white people something and thought about abolishing AA and BEE will take effect.

Now there's an idea. not.

So basically BEE and AA is a punishment for whites not voting ANC?

Oh ps. - "...this way the ANC will be less likely to uphold BEE or AA in future and feel that they owe white people something..."

Because that's democracy, right? The ruling party works for only those who voted them in. It is not their duty to cater to anyone not worshipping "The Chief"?
 
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gpe

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+1 Marine1

If they really want independence why not reopen the Scorpions again under a new name and use the same criteria that organizations like the FBI use -- 4 year degrees, impeccable backgrounds & records etc ?? Oh yes, that's right because 75% of ANC MP's would be in jail. Its not that the Scorpions weren't independent, its that the paper trail always leads to their members. Whenever the Scorpions found corruption .. a bunch of people would be connected .. inevitably one of them from the ANC :eek:

Who's fault is that really? The Scorpions? --- So what does the ANC do? Close down the South African FBI :)

If they fixed up the SAPS, Scorpions and sorted out corruption I would have no problem, considering supporting them.
 

Tassidar

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Siphox.

There was a time when I was very grateful to the ANC, for following a vision for a harmonious South Africa, for not taking reprisals out on whites, for accomplishing a peaceful transition to democracy, and for creating a country that was working. I was quite happy to say openly that I thought the ANC was doing a good job. This was during Mbeki's first term of office.

My perceptions have changed greatly, not in small part due to Mbeki.
I found Mbeki to be a very weak man. Not only was he highly insecure which made him defensive. This was manifest by the typical attitude of whenever attacked on any issue, responding by playing the race card, rather than look at whether the criticism was valid. This has been debated many times over - AIDS, Telecoms, Zimbabwe etc...

Under Mbeki's lack of leadership, it also became apparent that the ANC lost its moral compass. The division between business and the ANC became very blurred, with many politicians using their political influence to gain prestigious positions on the boards of top companies, with little regard for the fact that they were business and financially illiterate. In short, what happened was a scramble for riches under the guise of BEE occurred.

Mbeki also did his level best to remove anyone who posed a threat to his leadership (here, think Sexwale, Ramaphosa etc...) so any potentially good leadership was outed, and we were left with the likes of Tshabalala-Msimang, Mfeketo, Matseppi-Casaburri, Erwin, Nqakula. These people were yes-men. People who didn't criticise Mbeki and were rewarded for loyalty, not performance.

Lastly, Mbeki created the void for Jacob Zuma - a popularist, who is a complete political chameleon. Given Zuma's speeches so far, he has pandered to every group he has spoken to, often making contradictory statements. Such a man, cannot in my opinion be trusted.

Look closely at the ANC, and you will not see the same organisation which consisted of people like Biko, Mandela and Thambo. It is a different organisation with a different agenda, and therefore shouldn't command loyalty for its struggle against apartheid.

For these reasons I cannot vote for the ANC.

I hold my point about your selective responses. You have chosen not to respond to many valid points raised by me, and as such, I cannot find much to recommend your viewpoint.

I would however, recommend that you think long and hard about whether you want to be in a country ruled by a person who has not revealed his agenda, and who considers himself important enough to drive in police motorcades at 160km/h bullying any other drivers on the road.

These are some of the hallmarks of a dictator in the making.
 

siphox

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Siphox, what value does BEE add to business - other than complying with legislation (which you'll appreciate is a cyclical answer)?

I'm still waiting for an answer as to whether you trust Zuma.

Zuma was involved with Shaik, Shaik got arrested for corruption, so the question that remains is, did shaik use Zuma or was Zuma aware of what was happening? the courts will figure this one out.

Lastly, don't you feel insulted by BEE/AA/EE. After all, it suggests that blacks can't compete with whites, and are therefore inferior. By its very nature, it is racist - against blacks.

Your view is not factual but based upon personal perception. I see it different but i will engage you anyway. We blacks have been competing with whites through out our entire lives since you landed on this continent. Our forefather, with their spears and shields and mere technology faced your forefathers with their high-tech guns.
We fought with you in the plains of Africa, we challenged apartheid until we killed it. We don't fear white competition.
If at all we managed to win back power from whites, what do we have to fear.

Do you understand the results of having so many uneducated and unemployed blacks? its crime. A human being must survive, sometimes even if he has to kill to make a living humans will do that, so it is important that we affirm and give blacks a boost.



Kids today are leaving school, having had equal access to eduction, yet the black kids are far more likely to get a job, or get into university than white kids. Surely, if, as I'm sure you believe, blacks are equal to whites, not treating them as equals is highly racist. It is suggesting to blacks that they are stupid and will never be able to compete on equal footing to whites - a statement that is highly disempowering and goes against everything that the freedom charter (as quoted below) stands for.

The education standards in south african township is still below standard. not many black kids go to super schools. I hear that companies like BMW and Mercedes go to these schools to recruit. As any pupil in the township if they have experienced this, there answer will be blank faces. many township schools don't have facilities like white schools.


Ask yourself this, do you honestly support BEE/AA/EE because you think it is good policy, or do you support because of your own insecurity about being black. I'm not asking you to answer this on the forum - it is a highly personal question, but try to be honest with yourself.

i will answer it. I am intelligent and ambitious. The only money that i have is the one that i am yet to be paid, but i will make it better than any other white man who uses BEE and AA as an excuse to fail. BEE is a good policy because it uplifts blacks and destroys crime. How do you suggest the ANC handle crime?
 

siphox

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Fixed.



Now there's an idea. not.

Oh ps. - "...this way the ANC will be less likely to uphold BEE or AA in future and feel that they owe white people something..."

Because that's democracy, right? The ruling party works for only those who voted them in. It is not their duty to cater to anyone not worshipping "The Chief"?

WHITE PEOPLE VOTE FOR ANC and MAKE IT FEEL THAT IT OWES YOU SOMETHING.

OR VOTE DA AND WAIT FOREVER FOR THEM TO DO SOMETHING FOR YOU. ITS YOUR CHOICE.
 

Flanders

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WHITE PEOPLE VOTE FOR ANC and MAKE IT FEEL THAT IT OWES YOU SOMETHING.

OR VOTE DA AND WAIT FOREVER FOR THEM TO DO SOMETHING FOR YOU. ITS YOUR CHOICE.

HEY I HEARD YOU THE FIRST TIME!

I mean that tactic would've worked for blacks back in the day with the NP, right? Riiight.
 

marine1

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We are not talking about the sentence - or the judgement.

We are talking about the fact that he only served 5 months of his entire sentence. That had nothing to do with the judge.

Plus he was allowed weekends out of prison.

You're telling me you don't see anything fscked up with this picture? If not, its indicative of one of the problems this country currently has
And he broke his parole how many times? :rolleyes:
 

marine1

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If they fixed up the SAPS, Scorpions and sorted out corruption I would have no problem, considering supporting them.
Exactly, they only did this to regain control of the unit as they were untouchable by the ANC.

i will answer it. I am intelligent and ambitious. The only money that i have is the one that i am yet to be paid, but i will make it better than any other white man who uses BEE and AA as an excuse to fail. BEE is a good policy because it uplifts blacks and destroys crime. How do you suggest the ANC handle crime?
I suppose that is why we are experiencing such little crime today hey? What a load of utter rubbish.
 

shadowfox

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OR VOTE ANC AND WAIT FOREVER FOR THEM TO DO SOMETHING FOR YOU. ITS YOUR CHOICE.

Fixed that for you too.

We don't protest by dancing in the streets because whites don't dance to show their unhappiness.

BEE is a good policy because it uplifts blacks and destroys crime. How do you suggest the ANC handle crime?

*giggles like a maniac* No - an effective police force - and proper education - destroys crime. We have neither in this country - which, mind you is currently being run by your precious ANC.

As for how we suggest the ANC handle crime - bring back the Scorpions and let justice take its course. And stop hobbling the police force.
 

marine1

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Siphox, listening to you just makes me thank god I am getting the hell out of here and will now maybe consider voting FF.:D:D
 
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