Any ANC supporters on this forum?

[siphox]

You are completly oblivious to the fact that any post apartheid party would have allowed this, not just the ANC

But I only believe in the ANC, they have got international favour and are well known. And not everyone will do it like the ANC. BEE and AA are important I dont hear the FF plus or DA saying anything in support of it. So I vote ANC.

 

[icyrus]

Remember before the arrival of whites in Africa, the black man was very very happy.

Black people are as much immigrants here as white people are.

Your arrogance is astounding.

 

[Zenbaas]

Why? Please explain your answer very carefully, as a comment like this without justification is meaningless.

Incidentally, amoral means:






How many Zimbabweans carried on voting for Zanu-PF, because it was the liberator, even as it ran the country into the ground. Zimbabwe was so focused on not having a white government, that it allowed blacks (and whites) to be far worse off than was ever the case under Smith. Ironic isn't it? Be careful of blind faith in a party, it can easily turn on you.

An organisation is in itself, not a person, and can't command loyalty. An idea can, a person can, but not an organisation, since if there were no people, there would be no organisation. Therefore, when deciding whether or not to be loyal to a party, it is a good idea to ask whether the people in the party are worth being loyal to i.e. would you trust those individuals who lead the party to do the best for you that they could. Would you trust Jacob Zuma, Julius Malema, Matthews Phosa etc... I for one, can't trust Zuma, not because he is black, but because of his actions and his words. He has been accused or rape and fraud. While you can argue that he hasn't been proven guilty, remember that this is not the same as being proven innocent - it only means that there was insufficient evidence to prove him guilty. In his speeches, he tells everyone exactly what they want to hear, even if this means changing his viewpoint numerous times.

The ANC hasn't sacrificied its life in to save you, only people in the ANC, and those people are clearly no longer members of the ANC.

How does the ANC show its love for you? What does it do, that makes you believe that it loves you? Remember, that it is easy to lie about loving someone - many relationships have failed because of this. You may say that they have proved it with their blood, but that was over 16 years ago. In 16 years, love can easily turn sour. So, how does the ANC still show you its love?

Incidentally, while it is quite easy to blame whites for treating you badly, in the history of Africa, whites are among the least offenders. The Arabs were operating slave trades long before the whites, and at least as brutally. I would wager too, that far more blacks have died at black hands in Africa than from white hands - look at Rwanda, DRC and even Zimbabwe (look up the 5th Brigade under Shiri where an estimated 20 000 civilians were killed). If a person goes from one abusive relationship straight into another, repeatedly, perhaps that person needs to look at themselves, rather than the perpetrator. Because when a person is a victim at heart, there will always be a perpetrator. Perhaps the next one for Africa will be China.




You realise of course that a significant number of people who voted, voted against apartheid. These were the DP supporters. And while it is easy to say, white people should have done more to end apartheid, what should they have done? Many people did do a great deal, and ended up in jail for it (Helen Zille being one such person), but many others chose not to fight, but to vote against apartheid (why should they fight, it wasn't their battle). Likewise, many black people chose not to fight against apartheid. Do you blame them for supporting apartheid? If you are consistent in your viewpoint, you will. And to this day, you will still find many white people who give up their time and money, in order to make black people's lives better. Are those people not being nice?

This argument is just too clear and logical, so it won't be answered.

Like many simple questions which the OP has chosen to ignore.

We are still waiting......

You are completely oblivious to the fact that any post apartheid party would have allowed this, not just the ANC

+1. But the blind faith he has is exactly what the majority of their supporters also believe. I really do not understand why all of you are arguing with him as it is obvious that any rational argument will be ignored or rubbished by some irrelevant statement.

 

[siphox]

... why not, he gave him a chance when the order of the day was not to.

Okay okay, your grandfather was the coolest dude on the planet. Anyway this story goes on to show that if blacks were judged by their skills, and not skin colour, they would be up there, but their skin colour kept them down.

... ah, the old argument surfaces again.

Its an important argument.

 

[TheHiveMind]

"Remember before the arrival of whites in Africa, the black man was very very happy."

Yes, happy killing eachother just like everyone else on earth.
Were you alive before the white man arrived? Didn't think so ^_~

 

[Nod]

Its an important argument.

That was a statement, not an argument. In which way were the black people more happy in South Africa? And in which part of South Africa?

 

[Albereth]

Well thank God to the ANC, I have all this.

LOL

 

[Albereth]

Black people are as much immigrants here as white people are.

Your arrogance is astounding.

And ignorance.

 

[alloytoo]

Remember before the arrival of whites in Africa, the black man was very very happy.
During apartheid many black people owned businesses-stokvels,taxi's, spazas and grocery shops, as long as they were in the segregated areas, however, thy could not participate in the major economy of the country. So their economic freedom was limited. Thats why we have such a huge informal sector.So black people do have skills and the cleverness to survive, but it was stifled by apartheid laws. Question, apartheid was so hard on blacks, a million times over than puny BEE and AA, why are you whining so much?

Hold on, now you've shifted the goalpost, one moment you're thanking the ANC for allowing you to work for whiteowned businesses, which you could do under apartheid and now you're discussing black owned businesses, which you state existed under apartheid. What's to thank the ANC for?

Thanking the ANC for all their "wonders" is distinct and apart from condemning apartheid.

Secondly before the black man arrived the Bushman were pretty happy too.

And to answer your question, I'm complaining because the ANC has in 14 years, failed to address education, failed to maintain infrastruture, and failed to uplift the economic state of the majority of South Africans.

I like many of my fellow compratriots who voted to free South Africa feel disappointed and betrayed.

 

[Zenbaas]

Secondly before the black man arrived the Bushman were pretty happy too.

Classic

 

[shadowfox]

OMW - is this pointless debate still going? I left the office on Friday and thought it might have died down - but I notice a lot of my arguments were ignored as well because sipho, old buddy old pal, couldn't think up any decent and well founded counters.

Oh wait ... nothing is well founded. I think I'm finished with following this - and I suggest the rest of you follow the same route. In hopes of convincing you - I leave you with the following definition:

fanatic (n) - A person who is zealously enthusiastic for some cause

and some quotes:

A zealot can't change his mind. A fanatic can't change his mind and won't change the subject. —Winston Churchill
A fanatic is one who redoubles his effort when he has forgotten his aim. —George Santayana

 

[alloytoo]

OMW - is this pointless debate still going? I left the office on Friday and thought it might have died down - but I notice a lot of my arguments were ignored as well because sipho, old buddy old pal, couldn't think up any decent and well founded counters.

Oh wait ... nothing is well founded. I think I'm finished with following this - and I suggest the rest of you follow the same route. In hopes of convincing you - I leave you with the following definition:

Perhaps our friend is carefully considering the bubbles that we have just burst?

 

[siphox]

Why? Please explain your answer very carefully, as a comment like this without justification is meaningless.

We were oppressed. Our economic freedom was suppressed and now many of us are poor. We were not allowed to fulfill our full potential. Our rights were squashed. So its only a moral imperative that any government which comes into power should specifically address black issues. The DA will not address our issues as black people. They will not work to reverse the wrongs of the past. Can't you whites bear the pain of BEE and AA, we blacks have had to look deep into our hearts and painfully sigh to ourselves that yes the whites wronged us terribly, they treated us like animals. Today they are living grand lives and we are living in shacks and poverty stricken, but it is very important that we look into the future, put aside all possible hatred we can feel for them for the sake of ourselves and children and harmonious existence between the races. Can you do this to. Its not easy forgiving someone who has made you bleed for over 300 years. But its important for our countries stability.Its a moral imperative that we blacks do this.

Incidentally, amoral means:

dont tell me you could not figure out that i wanted to say a moral


How many Zimbabweans carried on voting for Zanu-PF, because it was the

Why do you specifically want a white government, there are other "black parties you know". Anyway, SA is not Zimbabwe, and please don't blame the blacks in Zim for not wanting a white government, the whites oppressed them.Why would I want to be under the rule of someone that hurts me? The British failed to honor the part of the Lancaster agreement, after Robert Mugabe tried talking to them for 20 years. so Mugabe was forced to start taking the farms forcefully from the whites. This pissed of the west and they placed sanction on Zimbabwe which have led to the death of zim's economy. Robert Mugabe didn't intentionally kill his own economy. It is the sanctions and now everyone is suffering. THis tactic has been used by the west on many countries to force regime change. Look at Cuba. By ppressing sanctions on Zim, the west knows that the people will get tired of living sub-standard lives, then in the election they vote the mugabe government out so that the west can plant their own man. They hvae been doing this forever. The ANC government has been very careful in its implementation of land program by using the willing buyer willing seller policy. If the seller is unhappy, he can always go to court to fight the government. This is democracy at its best. The ANC will act in such a way that it will never trigger sanctions. so this country is not going ton the direction of Zim. Remember that the people of Zim didn't have problem with him until the sanctions started. Personally I believe he should now step down, even if the west is to blame because the west controls are economies of the world. If he steps down they will start investing again. He should do it for his people. The ANC has hardly started on this path. so its not time for me to vote them out. If it does the people will vote the ANC out of power through elections. If the ANC does not step down like Zanu-PF did, we will talk and talk to our leaders, if they still don't want to step down. We pick up arms.

An organisation is in itself...

In the ANC, people like Mandela, Tambo and all,others before them, set the tone of morality of the organization. So anyone who joins must aspire to those ideals. In fact these ideals have become so independed of the members that they are a document floating in this sky that all that join must look up to. JZ, because he slept with that woman, made a grave mistake and now his morality is questioned. However we should remember that he is human too and makes mistake like all of us, but that does not mean he is a terrible human being out to get us all. His rape case is not even strong enough to push me away from the ANC. Even malema's war talk. The ANC will be around well after Zuma has died. Why do i need to judge the entire organization by his actions. Why dont I judge the ANC by other members whose morality is not questioned? Why use Zuma alone. Lets remember that he was put there democratically in polokwane. He didn't trick his way in. If Zuma is found guilty of corruption, he will be replaced and the ANC will still have my vote. The ANC hasn't sacrificied its life in to save you, only people in the ANC, and those people are clearly no longer members of the ANC. Oh yes they have, many are still members of the ANC and you know it.The ANC will change, one day all the freedom fighters will die, I will still vote ANC as long as those ideals are in place and have not been replaced by ugly ones that my heart to does like. You cant tell me that people like Mandela, mahlangu, Tambo, Sisulu didnt sacrifice their lives for me and did it to gain money.This is laughable. If you are talking about the BEE guys, i hate to tell you this but there is nothing wrong with them being fat cats. The only flaw that was in BEE is that one person can get empowered over and over again and the gains are not spread over the wider masses. This flaw has been fixed through the policy of BBBEE. so that a greater number of blacks can participate in the economy. This is why I will vote ANC, they empower me. How does the ANC show its love for you? What does it do, that makes you believe that it loves you? Remember, that it is easy to lie about loving someone - many relationships have failed because of this. You may say that they have proved it with their blood, but that was over 16 years ago. In 16 years, love can easily turn sour. So, how does the ANC still show you its love? You can not downplay, the blood part. What greater sacrifice can a man make but with their blood? Today they have provided me with RDP houses, economic empowerment, AA, electricity, clean water and the freedom to realize my full potential. The freedom to argue with a white man and not get killed. They strengthen BEE and AA so that I give myself opportunities to unchain myself from the economic oppression of the past. That is sweet sweet love. I don't expect them to drop a bag of money at my door step every morning.

The ANC hasn't sacrificied its life...

How does the ANC show its love for you? What does it do, that makes you believe that it loves you? Remember, that it is easy to lie about loving someone - many relationships have failed because of this. You may say that they have proved it with their blood, but that was over 16 years ago. In 16 years, love can easily turn sour. So, how does the ANC still show you its love?

Incidentally, while it is quite easy to blame whites for treating you badly, in the history of Africa, whites are among the least offenders. The Arabs were operating slave trades long before the whites, and at least as brutally. I would wager too, that far more blacks have died at black hands in Africa than from white hands - look at Rwanda, DRC and even Zimbabwe (look up the 5th Brigade under Shiri where an estimated 20 000 civilians were killed). If a person goes from one abusive relationship straight into another, repeatedly, perhaps that person needs to look at themselves, rather than the perpetrator. Because when a person is a victim at heart, there will always be a perpetrator. Perhaps the next one for Africa will be China.

I am fully aware of Arab slave trade in Africa. but this does not mean that i can not confront white men's oppression of the black men. It doesn't matter how many evils a black man does to another, it still doesn't mean I can't face you about white peoples oppression of blacks.



You realise of course that a significant number of people who voted, voted against apartheid. These were the DP supporters. And while it is easy to say,

To all those that actually voted against the NP so that they can get rid of apartheid I salute them, but i am sure there are those that voted against the NP for their own personal reasons. racism can exists without apartheid, plus there are different levels of racism. Some is subtle, some is Nazi like. The DA as it stands today, just does not attract black people, because we still view it as a white party and the majority of whites have proven not to be good to blacks.Don't blame us for shuddering with fear at white rule. Plus the DA does not support BEE and AA in the pro-active manner that the ANC does. They want to de-recialise it and apply to to all, but whites don't need empowerment like blacks do. We need a party that directly addresses black concerns. The DA isn't going to do that. If we say that de-recialise AA and BEE, its abvioulsy doing away with them(i wonder why they even bother putting this in their policy documents, why don't they just say they will not use BEE and AA-maybe these are tricky ways of wining the black vote) The PAC fought against apartheid, but they don't have my vote, because they believe in shipping whites back to Europe, this just isn't nice. Its not their fight? Ha!- of course its their fight unless you believe that erasing the right of other people is okay. How many whites were affected by apartheid? Many. Bombs and those sports sanctions and those economic sanction. So it was their fight too. Whites could have marched in the streets, stage-parlimenatry seat ins. boycotted the elections. But they didn't. They brought back the NP into power for decades(Just like Zanu-PF supporters hey?).They chose to lock themselves away in the luxury of their big houses and said to hell with the blacks, its their fight(if you even thought of us) Well you know what, there is a saying that goes, you cant keep a man down on not stay down yourself. This is what has happened to the whites in SA. They thought apartheid was not negatively affecting them.Look who is crying today. My vote goes to THE AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS.

 

[siphox]

And ignorance.

Almost all of the human race is immigrated to all other areas of the earth. Immigration does not justify oppression...smart one.

 

[alloytoo]

My vote goes to THE AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS.

You still haven't addressed what the ANC has actually done? (Positively that is?)

14 years of power and they still think they're a liberation movement, as a result they seem largely incapable of managing the resources they inherited.

Infrastructure: road, rail, water and electricity has deteriorated under the ANC watch.

State Health care has gone to the dogs, as has education.

Crime is beyond comprehension.

Who does ANC incompetance hurt the most?

 

[alloytoo]

Almost all of the human race is immigrated to all other areas of the earth. Immigration does not justify oppression...smart one.

Worth noting that the only indigenous peoples of this region don't even feature on the official languages list.

 

[siphox]

I personally thank God, my Parent, PAC and Steve Biko Foundation for my success so far!

Who are you...great warrior?

 

[siphox]

"Remember before the arrival of whites in Africa, the black man was very very happy."

Yes, happy killing eachother just like everyone else on earth.
Were you alive before the white man arrived? Didn't think so ^_~

In a way you agree with me that we are all human and the same. No matter where you are from or the colour of your skin. so why did whites see us as apes and oppressed us?

 

[siphox]

I want to ask something. Do Educated black people vote for the ANC?
I can see the appeal for poor black people to vote for their 'heroes' that can barely read or write, just like them (im not saying all ANC officials are uneducated like the majourity of their supporters) Take Zuma or that malema oke for example, I mean come on. Each time I see either of them make a speech I cant help but laugh.

I can understand that ur average black person will never vote DA for instance, (I wouldnt even vote fot them) But seriously, do Educated black people really believe that a guy with grade 6 under his belt is capable of running a country? Each time Zuma wears that Zulu outfit, I get embarrased with the thought of "damn imagine someone like Bush saw this, what must he think"

The ANC will win next year, because of the simple fact that the get votes from the majourity that is uneducated.

Poverty strikes you the same whether you are educated or not.
There is still so much poverty in SA, but many people are living in RDP's and have got lights and clean water and hope for more. That is why the ANC is voted in. You don't need a degree to feel or not feel hunger.

 

[Albereth]

Its not easy forgiving someone who has made you bleed for over 300 years

Sheesh - how old are you?

The British failed to honor the part of the Lancaster agreement

This should be on mythbusters. The UK paid money and Ugly Bob stuck it in his own pocket, so the Brits stopped paying. I suppose you are right - they stopped paying an endless stream of money to a petty despot.

So anyone who joins must aspire to those ideals

So you had to be a terrorist? Or did the ideals change? So if Zuma is the epitome of ANC ideals, what does that say about the ANC? And I think that it was raised in a previous post that the organisation itself has no ideals, it merely represents the ideals of its members. Therefore, your subscription to the organisation means that you share common ideals - so tell me, what was your slice of the arms deal?

The freedom to argue with a white man and not get killed

How are your arguments with some of the other folk going? I hear that some of them are pretty quick to use tyres and matches to win an argument.

We need a party that directly addresses black concerns

You are aware that the ANC professes to cater for all aren't you? Or has your inherent racism clouded your judgement to the extent that you believe that the DA is for whites only, and the ANC for blacks only? Clearly both parties have some very confused members - or would you just rather believe that they are in denial about their skin colour?

I'd rather think that they've considered the policies and the issues rather than joined out of ignorance.