Any ANC supporters on this forum?

[AvOk]

Actually that question mark should be inside the inverted comas

And if you applied you brain just for a second, you will see that I was not actually asking you a question, i was indicating how baffled i am of your suggestion that the ANC should not make promises. How can they not make promises if they plan to fulfill them, ha

FAIL! How can you even begin to look at grammatical errors!

 

[Tassidar]

On BEE:

This is how BEE works:
(1) Incompetent people are appointed to position that they cannot manage
(2) The competent people then have to work doubly hard to sustain the productivity of the organisation. The whites, of course face a glass ceiling, and realise that their hard work won't be rewarded.
(3) They then leave the organisation and consult back to it.
(4) The incompetent people remain in the organisation claiming a full salary.
Net result, the efficiency of the organisation is decreased.

Effectively, this BEE implementation is actually Black Economic Enrichment not Empowerment. It has the opposite effect of empowerment ie. it leaves people feeling very insecure.

On the subject of apartheid. Siphox, you would do well to remember that:
(1) Apartheid was ended by a referendum, something the ANC really doesn't want to acknowledge, and is trying to erase from the history books.
(2) Europe (in particular Britain) - our major trading partners - had at the time a very strong and vocal leftist contingent (of whites) who were very active in lobbying for the end of apartheid and the implementation of sanctions. South Africa was seen as very much as pariah state, and white South Africans were hated overseas for apartheid. Speak to anyone who traveled overseas at the time.

To be sure, the ANC had a part in ending apartheid, but it isn't nearly so large as the ANC would like to make out. This is also natural to a degree - history is written by those in power (read 1984 by Orwell to get a good analysis of this).

 

[shadowfox]

Siphox - like many people have said - please:

1. Use paragraphs ... it allows you to logically present an argument
2. Spell-check - you might not believe this but it makes you look intelligent at least.

And please - stop making up facts on the go - every time you make a statement like that - a hole gets poked in it a few posts later.

The ANC has failed on numerous occasions - despite having reliable information at hand - so projections have nothing to do with it. Electricity crisis? Don't tell me you've forgotten already - they had a whole report on it 10 years ago - and chose to do nothing.

And don't use the population explosion excuse - or suddenly having to provide for 40 million as opposed to 7 million - etc ... that was taken into account. That particular little argument holds little water.

Population growth is a bad excuse as well:

SA population 2000 (est) - 43.4 million
SA population 2008 (est) - 43.7 million

Current growth rate - -0.581%

Source http://indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?v=21&c=sf&l=en

I could make a long list of failures - but to be dead honest - I don't have time.

(Please note: I used paragraphs ... makes things easier to read doesn't it )

Last question: What are the salaries like at ANC HQ?

 

[AvOk]

Last question: What are the salaries like at ANC HQ?

Good question?

 

[siphox]

Please describe how you believe businesses benefit from AA and BEE.

BEE enriches blacks, blacks are the majority, the country's buying power shoots up. This is happening. The government is working on a broader form of BEE that benefits more people. This will happen.


AA transfers skills to blacks, blacks become more educated and earn more more, and there is potential of them starting their own business, the country now has more companies to employ people. This has already happened and still is happening.

Most crimes is done by blacks because they don't have jobs, give them jobs and bam, you are on your way to solving the crime issue. Jailing and courts are not very effective.

A country with more people that are educated and monied will benefit businesses better than a country that is poor. This is an economic fact.

 

[Tassidar]

BEE enriches blacks, blacks are the majority, the country's buying power shoots up. This is happening. The government is working on a broader form of BEE that benefits more people. This will happen.


AA transfers skills to blacks, blacks become more educated and earn more more, and there is potential of them starting their own business, the country now has more companies to employ people. This has already happened and still is happening.

Most crimes is done by blacks because they don't have jobs, give them jobs and bam, you are on your way to solving the crime issue. Jailing and courts are not very effective.

A country with more people that are educated and monied will benefit businesses better than a country that is poor. This is an economic fact.

Why do you need BEE for education? The two concepts don't need to go together.

 

[boramk]

Siphox, respect for replying to us

Others ignore us which just aggravates

 

[shadowfox]

BEE enriches blacks, blacks are the majority, the country's buying power shoots up. This is happening. The government is working on a broader form of BEE that benefits more people. This will happen.

ANC propaganda. He works for them I'm telling you ... this is part of their election campaign

AA transfers skills to blacks, blacks become more educated and earn more more, and there is potential of them starting their own business, the country now has more companies to employ people. This has already happened and still is happening.

No ... education & training transfers skills. Except our education system is a balls up. Affirmative action on the other hand ... is about giving preference to "previously disadvantaged" people in the job market.

Most crimes is done by blacks because they don't have jobs, give them jobs and bam, you are on your way to solving the crime issue. Jailing and courts are not very effective.

Wow - more holes. Prove this? Half our police force commit crimes as well - and last time I looked they had a job - I'm not sure what it actually entails though.

Jailing and courts are not effective ... you're right ... because of - ummm ... let's see ... corruption and an ineffective justice system

A country with more people that are educated and monied will benefit businesses better than a country that is poor. This is an economic fact.

Wow, for once you have a point. Problem being that our current government isn't achieving this.

 

[Sly21C]

Siphox - like many people have said - please:

1. Use paragraphs ... it allows you to logically present an argument
2. Spell-check - you might not believe this but it makes you look intelligent at least.

And please - stop making up facts on the go - every time you make a statement like that - a hole gets poked in it a few posts later.

The ANC has failed on numerous occasions - despite having reliable information at hand - so projections have nothing to do with it. Electricity crisis? Don't tell me you've forgotten already - they had a whole report on it 10 years ago - and chose to do nothing.

And don't use the population explosion excuse - or suddenly having to provide for 40 million as opposed to 7 million - etc ... that was taken into account. That particular little argument holds little water.

Population growth is a bad excuse as well:

SA population 2000 (est) - 43.4 million
SA population 2008 (est) - 43.7 million

Current growth rate - -0.581%

Source http://indexmundi.com/g/g.aspx?v=21&c=sf&l=en

I could make a long list of failures - but to be dead honest - I don't have time.

(Please note: I used paragraphs ... makes things easier to read doesn't it )

Last question: What are the salaries like at ANC HQ?

So since you are convinced that the ANC is messed up and will mess up this country, are you gonna moan about it until you go to heaven or are you gonna do something about it to change the current situation or are you simply gonna emmigrate?

 

[Hoof-Hearted]

BEE enriches a select few blacks, .... The government [-]is working on[/-] has been promising a broader form of BEE that benefits more people for years. This [-]will[/-] has not yet happened.
.

There ... fixed it for you

AA transfers skills to blacks, blacks become more educated and earn more more, and there is potential of them starting their own business, the country now has more companies to employ people. This has already happened and still is happening.

Most crimes is done by blacks because they don't have jobs, give them jobs and bam, you are on your way to solving the crime issue. Jailing and courts are not very effective.

A country with more people that are educated and monied will benefit businesses better than a country that is poor. This is an economic fact.

Although I agree with most of what you've said in the second part of your post, I disagree that AA will sort any of these things out.
Educate the people and these things will sort themselves out over time. Unfortunately for us though, our gauvamint finds far more "interesting" ways to spend our money rather than getting our education system sorted out

 

[shadowfox]

So since you are convinced that the ANC is messed up and will mess up this country, are you gonna moan about it until you go to heaven or are you gonna do something about it to change the current situation or are you simply gonna emmigrate?

For the time being I'm actually staying here, and studying to become a teacher. Since I believe education will solve a lot of our problems ... I think this is a good place to start making a difference.

 

[Slootvreter]

Of course the ANC does projections. Otherwise we will not hear Mboweni say things like we want to bring the inflation down to xx by year xx. or we should reduce unemployment by this much by year so and so. The thing is RSA does not exist in isolation, the economic field unstable, we might not collect as much tax as you first thought etc. The population might have suddenly gone up or down because of other things, its a lot of variables at play here. lets not pretend that its easy. Here is a question, why did the whites bother with apartheid in the first place, didn't they project it was going to die in a few decades? Couldn't they see that no human being can live under oppression, that is like so abvious.

Unemployment will NEVER EVER be reduced unless the uneducated masses stop reproducing like rabbits. It may even get worse.

 

[FarligOpptreden]

Woah woah woah... I've seen a lot of people here speaking about BEE as if it were EE. There is a HUGE difference between the two:

EE is Employment Equity. Companies above 50 employees strong have to comply with EE targets, set up annually and reported on during October. This reporting classifies employees according to their race, gender, nationality and disability status, across occupational levels and -categories.

BEE, or Black Economic Empowerment, deals with black investors. I'm not too sure about the details of BEE, but I know for a fact it has got nothing to do with setting and meeting EE targets each year.

Alright, carry on...

EDIT: I see the issue of skills development also being mentioned here. AA and EE has not necessarily got the training and development of employees at heart. There is a separate statutory report that needs to be submitted each year - the WSP (Workplace Skills Plan). In this report companies are obliged to report on the planned and actual training and training budgets for all employees. Skills development is primarily driven by the different SETAs across the country, each specializing in a specific industry. The Department of Labour's website is rich with information about these subjects... I suggest you all read up on it.

 

[Mila]

Of course the ANC does projections. Otherwise we will not hear Mboweni say things like we want to bring the inflation down to xx by year xx. or we should reduce unemployment by this much by year so and so. The thing is RSA does not exist in isolation, the economic field unstable, we might not collect as much tax as you first thought etc. The population might have suddenly gone up or down because of other things, its a lot of variables at play here. lets not pretend that its easy. Here is a question, why did the whites bother with apartheid in the first place, didn't they project it was going to die in a few decades? Couldn't they see that no human being can live under oppression, that is like so abvious.

So the Govender of the reserve bank (and his hundreds of minions all of them ANC) can estimate with the help of Trevor (My friend Trevor)
So it’s proven they could have done the same with everything else but chose to ignore it.
I think Eskom is a good example of not thinking about the future or the people.

They were warned.....

I agree that apartheid was wrong but if the people i work with say they want that government back I’m starting to doubt if it was such a bad idea....

Even Europe has said that maybe colonising Africa should start again.

But maybe we should keep on voting ANC.... At least then AIDS doesn’t exist and we’ll end up with the population dying and shrinking...

 

[icyrus]

BEE enriches blacks, blacks are the majority, the country's buying power shoots up. This is happening. The government is working on a broader form of BEE that benefits more people. This will happen.

While BEE does enrich some black people it is a small well connected few.

Are you suggesting that the only way black people can achieve wealth is by having it given to them at the expense of someone else?

Is that the only benefit you imagine from BEE? What costs do you think it has?

AA transfers skills to blacks, blacks become more educated and earn more more, and there is potential of them starting their own business, the country now has more companies to employ people. This has already happened and still is happening.

AA is not at all about skills transfer and never has been.

 

[FarligOpptreden]

AA is not at all about skills transfer and never has been.

Yay! At last someone who knows what it's all about...

 

[Mila]

Although I don't support the ANC anymore and I will never vote for them again because I have lost faith in them, I would like to know something. Please tell me (in detail if possible) the reasons why you hate the ANC or why you don't like the ANC.

I know that there is this trend in this forum to hate everything the ANC does but I would like to know the reasons. I have my reasons but I'll like to know yours, thanks.

I hope you'll not use insults to make a point Facts and intelligence work better

Jullius Malema...

 

[daveza]

And please do explain, how has the ANC government abused its own people? I will not let you get away without some substantiation.

What problems are those that they intend not to fix?

More importantly why have they not fixed them after 14 years in power ?

Please don't spin out the apartheid legacy drivel.

The ANC were handed a fully working competent electrical infrastructure.

Same for Health, Policing, Defence, administration etc etc

I fully accept that these were for the benefit of the whiteys - and the ANC was supposed to extend all these wonderful things for the benefit of all our races.

Now all these are gone, broken, buggered up - and what have they given to the other races except for a chosen few ?
If the black population was so well looked after by the ANC why do they live in squalor and resort to protest and road-blocks in order to bring attention to their plight ?
Why do they die of AIDS related diseases in their hundreds of thousands ?
Why do they get electricity from plugging into lamp-poles?

Why are they deserting the ANC in droves if they are so happy?

They can get billion rand stadiums built for tourists in a few years - 14 years has been long enough for them to prove themselves.

 

[siphox]

tsk tsk tsk

When are the ANC and their supporters going to realize that one can't just make something up and expect reasonably intelligent people to take it as gospel ... just because they said it

(Unfortunately I don't have a link ... only a scanned copy of the page - I guess I could post it in pics if I can get it small enough)

April 24, 2007, 12:30
Miloon Kothari, the UN special rapporteur on adequate housing, says South Africa has made significant progress in ensuring that people's rights to adequate housing and other basic human rights are protected. Kothari has just completed a two-week tour of the country at the invitation of the government.
He visited Johannesburg, Pretoria, Kimberley, Polokwane, Durban, Cape Town and other areas. Kothari says the last 13 years of democratic rule have brought much change.
Kothari did however note that there are gaps in the implementation of certain constitutional provisions when it comes to providing adequate housing to citizens. He says there is lack of co-operation between national, provincial and local government.

 

[Slootvreter]

April 24, 2007, 12:30
Miloon Kothari, the UN special rapporteur on adequate housing, says South Africa has made significant progress in ensuring that people's rights to adequate housing and other basic human rights are protected. Kothari has just completed a two-week tour of the country at the invitation of the government.
He visited Johannesburg, Pretoria, Kimberley, Polokwane, Durban, Cape Town and other areas. Kothari says the last 13 years of democratic rule have brought much change.
Kothari did however note that there are gaps in the implementation of certain constitutional provisions when it comes to providing adequate housing to citizens. He says there is lack of co-operation between national, provincial and local government.

There will also never be adequate housing for the poor because of population growth. Slums and squatter camps will never be erradicated.