Any ANC supporters on this forum?

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siphox

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I assume you're talking about Tokyo Sexwale, in which case I'd recommend you go and do some homework on the man. Unless of course his "empowerment" came in the 70s in Swaziland and Russia...:rolleyes:

acquiring a a degree does not able one to run a business, practical skills are still needed. He did not run any business in these countries, when he started mvelaphanda, he had not practical education in business, he had to be guided and acquire business running skills. Thats education.
 

Mila

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acquiring a a degree does not able one to run a business, practical skills are still needed. He did not run any business in these countries,.

Why are you contradiction yourself?

Now you are saying he does not have any skill..... but to me you said he is brilliant at projecting the rates.....
 

daveza

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There ... he just proves he works for the ANC :D

With the amount of time spent on the forum I wouldn't use the term ' works'.

The ANC does recognize its weaknesses and they are being addressed.

Rubbish. The ANC was well aware of it's weaknesses.

They are only talking about doing something about them because enough people have become disillusioned and seeking answers elsewhere.

After 14 years they have grown fat, comfortable, arrogant and removed.

Sticking Malema in the public eye was the final insult for too many.

Simply put - nobody believes what the ANC says or promises anymore.
 

Tassidar

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acquiring a a degree does not able one to run a business, practical skills are still needed. He did not run any business in these countries, when he started mvelaphanda, he had not practical education in business, he had to be guided and acquire business running skills. Thats education.

And he didn't exactly have to do very much - specifically, he didn't need to add value, like most businesses do.

Actually, all he had to do was sit in his office and answer the phone, which rang off the hook by businesses wanting to be black empowered. It's pretty much impossible for him to fail.

Where are the business skills in this?
What good does this do for the country?
Again, I point out, that this is enrichment, not empowerment. There is a difference.
 

DJ...

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Education does not end with the acquisition of a degree. He did not have practical education in running a business. When he started mvelaphandla he had to be guided and re-educated practically in business. In other words certain skills had to be transfered to him. Thats empowerment.

It was a certificate, not a degree, and he obtained considerable experience in the Soviet Union. And yes, we all learn from experience, and in Sexwale's case, he empowered himself. Running office in the public sector is no different to running one in the private sector - you appear to be under the false illusion that he wasn't sufficiently educated to run Mvela...:rolleyes::confused:

More than just that, you've highlighted one of the major flaws of AA and agree with it at the same time which is scary - those with little experience and-or little education should not be bolstered into positions of power in the private and public sector, regardless of skin colour. They should be provided with the necessary tools to obtain these positions once they are capable of doing so, not after the fact - that is one sure-fire way of cocking up any business. You wouldn't give the running of your business over to an 18 year old because they do not have the necessary skills, experience and education - likewise, we should not do the same if they are 38 years old, regardles of race. Give them the tools to be successful and allow them to do so for themselves. Pushing students through grades after they have failed dismally (based on skin colour), appointing unskilled labourers into skilled positions (based on skin colour) and funding people (based on skin colour) is not an option.

How do people still not realise that apartheid was based on these same racist principles? And yet they argue for their existence. If the tables were turned and whites were being afforded advantages based on skin colour, non-whites would bitch and moan. Now we hit the issue of re-addressing the past - well, it won't happen if the same mistakes are made over and over. Give non-white South Africans the tools to become successful - do not push them into positions of power and expect them to learn thereafter. It starts from the ground-up- taking shortcuts like AA is a short-term solution which pleases voters, but has proven since its introduction to have failed dismally. It is demeaning to any proud non-whites IMO. One should achieve things for one's self, it should not be handed to you on a platter based on skin colour...
 
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grayston

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You.Are.A.Dumbass.

PLEASE and I mean PLEASE quote me once when she said that, or any DA members (and there are black DA members) said that.

Ah, but he said "some" DA members still think apartheid was right. I assume he means the white ones?

This boy is the best example of how harmful Apartheid was to this country. Racism begets racism...
 

siphox

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The ANC is the worst goverment this country has ever had. You have to be blind not to see their uber screw ups, which they dont intend on correcting or even attempt to fix. They have opressed their own people more than the whites ever have.

Really, the ANC oppresses its own people. How come we the people who support the ANC dont feel the oppression? Because it is not there.

Do you see the ANC restriicting the movement of blacks?
Do you see the ANC asking for passes from blacks to justify their presence in certain area?
Do you see the ANC keeping the blacks from entering the economy?
Do you see the ANC putting up whites only signs?
Do you see the ANC giving heaby sentances to blacks because of the colour of their skin?
Do you see the ANC shooting down blacks because they are standing up for the human rights?
Do you see the ANC shamboking people because they are blacks?
Do you see the ANC hanging people because they are black?

Do you really understand what oppression is?
 

Mephisto_Helix

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Really, the ANC oppresses its own people. How come we the people who support the ANC dont feel the oppression? Because it is not there.

Do you see the ANC restriicting the movement of blacks?
Do you see the ANC asking for passes from blacks to justify their presence in certain area?
Do you see the ANC keeping the blacks from entering the economy?
Do you see the ANC putting up whites only signs?
Do you see the ANC giving heaby sentances to blacks because of the colour of their skin?
Do you see the ANC shooting down blacks because they are standing up for the human rights?
Do you see the ANC shamboking people because they are blacks?
Do you see the ANC hanging people because they are black?

Do you really understand what oppression is?

just the last point there ..... afaik the death penalty was for everyone.
 

siphox

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What skills might those be? Tokyo Sexwale was and still is a very "connected" gentleman. An investment banker came along and suggested a way of leveraging these connections in order to make huge amounts of tin through shrewd financing of "empowerment" deals. You'll find that said investment banker is still a senior director of Mvela and that whenever a big deal as it were comes along, Mvela is one of the "preferred" empowerment partners

This happens with or without BEE.
There is no clause in BEE which encourages unscrupolous deals. This matter, if it goes against good business practise should be handled by a commerce watchdog institution. Maybe its not illegal.
Anywway, since you are aware of it why dont you report it, use your democratic power.
 

siphox

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Glad to see you've got old jeremy's comments highlighted in RED :D

The red is not intended to stand for communism. Just a colour I used. Dont overread. :D

If you are expecting a perfect government, you will find one in heaven, not even the US of A is perfect. Problem pop up and they should be a continuous effort to solve them, dont expect to reach a state of utopia.
 

Hoof-Hearted

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This happens with or without BEE.
There is no clause in BEE which encourages unscrupolous deals. This matter, if it goes against good business practise should be handled by a commerce watchdog institution. Maybe its not illegal.
Anywway, since you are aware of it why dont you report it, use your democratic power.


Report what? All the deals were clearly legal under SA law... All I'm saying is, I doubt Tokyo Sexwale all of a sudden learned a whole lot of new skills once the company he was a director of became a preferred empowerment partner.

To me the current state of BEE is patently unscrupulous... it doesn't really do anything for the upliftment of the disadvantaged (past, present or perpetual) unless one of a few already super-rich, connected people are involved
 

Mila

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just the last point there ..... afaik the death penalty was for everyone.

+100 000
Can you believe the idiot!!!! I think Sipho, go have a read about our country before making stupid brain dead statements like that.
 

siphox

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Apartheid could not conceivably come back without it deriving from the international world who suppressed it in the first place. Not gonna happen.

Its not impossible for apartheid not to happen. It can happen. how did the NP do it in the first. International condemnation is not good enough to stop it from happening. Governments ignore the world. Look at Zimbabwe, Mugabe just ignores the cries of the world.

Of course if you vote DA they would have to put most of their effeorts into helping the masses. Not rich white people. If they helped whites first, the masses wouldn't vote for them again and that wouldn't be in their interests. The excuses I hear are just weak attempts at supposed ignorance. I don't believe anyone on this forum REALLY believes the DA wouldn't try to do the job properly. I think people are scared they WOULD infact do the job properly.

As long as the DA does not specifically say anything about black concern, they will never do the job better or win black votes. The humiliation of the country is the under educated blacks without skills and are mostly unemployed which triggers them to commit crime. If you don't affirm them, there is no way you are going to solve this countries problems and the ANC is aware of that. Whites are doing quiet well in this country. They don't have poverty or unemployment haunting them. Even with BEE and AA putting pressure on them, they simply leave the country and try out other means in other countries. They have options. most blacks who are poor cant even start thinking about buying a ticket. let alone imagining going "overseas"
 

daveza

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Siphox - please read this and then tell us if you recognise the ANC as it is today anywhere.

ACCEPTANCE SPEECH OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE AFRICAN NATIONAL CONGRESS, NELSON MANDELA, AT THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE AWARD CEREMONY: OSLO, NORWAY. DECEMBER 10, 1993.

Your Majesty the King, Your Royal Highness, Honourable Prime Minister, Madame Gro Brundtland, Ministers, Members of Parliament and Ambassadors, Esteemed Members of the Norwegian Nobel Committee, Fellow Laureate, Mr F.W. de Klerk, Distinguished guests, Friends, ladies and gentlemen:

I am indeed truly humbled to be standing here today to receive this year's Nobel Peace Prize.

I extend my heartfelt thanks to the Norwegian Nobel Committee for elevating us to the status of a Nobel Peace Prize winner.

I would also like to take this opportunity to congratulate my compatriot and fellow laureate, State President F.W. de Klerk, on his receipt of this high honour.

Together, we join two distinguished South Africans, the late Chief Albert Luthuli and His Grace Archbishop Desmond Tutu, to whose seminal contributions to the peaceful struggle against the evil system of apartheid you paid well-deserved tribute by awarding them the Nobel Peace Prize.

It will not be presumptuous of us if we also add, among our predecessors, the name of another outstanding Nobel Peace Prize winner, the late African- American statesman and internationalist, the Rev Martin Luther King Jr.

He, too, grappled with and died in the effort to make a contribution to the just solution of the same great issues of the day which we have had to face as South Africans.

We speak here of the challenge of the dichotomies of war and peace, violence and non-violence, racism and human dignity, oppression and repression and liberty and human rights, poverty and freedom from want.

We stand here today as nothing more than a representative of the millions of our people who dared to rise up against a social system whose very essence is war, violence, racism, oppression, repression and the impoverishment of an entire people.

I am also here today as a representative of the millions of people across the globe, the anti-apartheid movement, the governments and organisations that joined with us, not to fight against South Africa as a country or any of its peoples, but to oppose an inhuman system and sue for a speedy end to the apartheid crime against humanity.

These countless human beings, both inside and outside our country, had the nobility of spirit to stand in the path of tyranny and injustice, without seeking selfish gain. They recognised that an injury to one is an injury to all and therefore acted together in defence of justice and a common human decency.

Because of their courage and persistence for many years, we can, today, even set the dates when all humanity will join together to celebrate one of the outstanding human victories of our century.

When that moment comes, we shall, together, rejoice in a common victory over racism, apartheid and white minority rule.

That triumph will finally bring to a close a history of five hundred years of African colonisation that began with the establishment of the Portuguese empire.

Thus, it will mark a great step forward in history and also serve as a common pledge of the peoples of the world to fight racism wherever it occurs and whatever guise it assumes.

At the southern tip of the continent of Africa, a rich reward is in the making, an invaluable gift is in the preparation, for those who suffered in the name of all humanity when they sacrificed everything - for liberty, peace, human dignity and human fulfilment.

This reward will not be measured in money. Nor can it be reckoned in the collective price of the rare metals and precious stones that rest in the bowels of the African soil we tread in the footsteps of our ancestors. It will and must be measured by the happiness and welfare of the children, at once the most vulnerable citizens in any society and the greatest of our treasures.

The children must, at last, play in the open veld, no longer tortured by the pangs of hunger or ravaged by disease or threatened with the scourge of ignorance, molestation and abuse, and no longer required to engage in deeds whose gravity exceeds the demands of their tender years.

In front of this distinguished audience, we commit the new South Africa to the relentless pursuit of the purposes defined in the World Declaration on the Survival, Protection and Development of Children.

The reward of which we have spoken will and must also be measured by the happiness and welfare of the mothers and fathers of these children, who must walk the earth without fear of being robbed, killed for political or material profit, or spat upon because they are beggars.

They too must be relieved of the heavy burden of despair which they carry in their hearts, born of hunger, homelessness and unemployment.

The value of that gift to all who have suffered will and must be measured by the happiness and welfare of all the people of our country, who will have torn down the inhuman walls that divide them.

These great masses will have turned their backs on the grave insult to human dignity which described some as masters and others as servants, and transformed each into a predator whose survival depended on the destruction of the other.

The value of our shared reward will and must be measured by the joyful peace which will triumph, because the common humanity that bonds both black and white into one human race, will have said to each one of us that we shall all live like the children of paradise.

Thus shall we live, because we will have created a society which recognises that all people are born equal, with each entitled in equal measure to life, liberty, prosperity, human rights and good governance.

Such a society should never allow again that there should be prisoners of conscience nor that any person's human rights should be violated.

Neither should it ever happen that once more the avenues to peaceful change are blocked by usurpers who seek to take power away from the people, in pursuit of their own, ignoble purposes.

In relation to these matters, we appeal to those who govern Burma that they release our fellow Nobel Peace Prize laureate, Aung San Suu Kyi, and engage her and those she represents in serious dialogue, for the benefit of all the people of Burma.

We pray that those who have the power to do so will, without further delay, permit that she uses her talents and energies for the greater good of the people of her country and humanity as a whole.

Far from the rough and tumble of the politics of our own country, I would like to take this opportunity to join the Norwegian Nobel Committee and pay tribute to my joint laureate, Mr F.W. de Klerk.

He had the courage to admit that a terrible wrong had been done to our country and people through the imposition of the system of apartheid.

He had the foresight to understand and accept that all the people of South Africa must, through negotiations and as equal participants in the process, together determine what they want to make of their future.

But there are still some within our country who wrongly believe they can make a contribution to the cause of justice and peace by clinging to the shibboleths that have been proved to spell nothing but disaster.

It remains our hope that these, too, will be blessed with sufficient reason to realise that history will not be denied and that the new society cannot be created by reproducing the repugnant past, however refined or enticingly repackaged.

We live with the hope that as she battles to remake herself, South Africa will be like a microcosm of the new world that is striving to be born.

This must be a world of democracy and respect for human rights, a world freed from the horrors of poverty, hunger, deprivation and ignorance, relieved of the threat and the scourge of civil wars and external aggression and unburdened of the great tragedy of millions forced to become refugees.

The processes in which South Africa and Southern Africa as a whole are engaged, beckon and urge us all that we take this tide at the flood and make of this region a living example of what all people of conscience would like the world to be.

We do not believe that this Nobel Peace Prize is intended as a commendation for matters that have happened and passed.

We hear the voices which say that it is an appeal from all those, throughout the universe, who sought an end to the system of apartheid.

We understand their call, that we devote what remains of our lives to the use of our country's unique and painful experience to demonstrate, in practice, that the normal condition for human existence is democracy, justice, peace, non-racism, non-sexism, prosperity for everybody, a healthy environment and equality and solidarity among the peoples.

Moved by that appeal and inspired by the eminence you have thrust upon us, we undertake that we too will do what we can to contribute to the renewal of our world so that none should, in future, be described as the wretched of the earth.

Let it never be said by future generations that indifference, cynicism or selfishness made us fail to live up to the ideals of humanism which the Nobel Peace Prize encapsulates.

Let the strivings of us all, prove Martin Luther King Jr to have been correct, when he said that humanity can no longer be tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war.

Let the efforts of us all, prove that he was not a mere dreamer when he spoke of the beauty of genuine brotherhood and peace being more precious than diamonds or silver or gold.

Let a new age dawn!

Thank you.
 

shadowfox

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There is such a massive difference between the ANC of Mandela's time and the ANC of today. It's like comparing two different parties.
 

siphox

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Report what? All the deals were clearly legal under SA law... All I'm saying is, I doubt Tokyo Sexwale all of a sudden learned a whole lot of new skills once the company he was a director of became a preferred empowerment partner.

To me the current state of BEE is patently unscrupulous... it doesn't really do anything for the upliftment of the disadvantaged (past, present or perpetual) unless one of a few already super-rich, connected people are involved

Quiet true that a few have gotten rich with BEE, to be honest with you I dont see anything wrong with a man becoming rich from BEE. There is othing wrong with a black man being rich. Methew phosa and other BEE guys have acknowledged that BEE needs to be broadened, and that they have benefitted without including the majority: READ THIS:Speaking at the same event, African National Congress Treasurer-General Mathews Phosa said the party "endorse[d] going forward with BEE and affirmative action.
Phosa said those that had benefited from BEE had to admit to it, in order to try and spread its reach.
"It is a fact that a few of us were empowered at the expense of the majority. If we don’t admit it, we will never correct it," he said.
He said skills development and BEE had to be implemented at the same time.
Phosa also said black business people should not just aspire to BEE.
"We must migrate from BEE to entrepreneurship. We have to move."
Phosa said these policies had to "bring the black people into the mainstream of the economy."
Phosa said the "white child" in South Africa, should also be given hope like the "black child".
Rather the aim of affirmative action policies was to "bring the black people into the mainstream of the economy," he said.

This is the reason I will always vote for the ANC, because they do admit that BEE is flawed and plan to make it more beneficial to more blacks. Thats why I will always vote ANC.
 

EtienneK

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This is the reason I will always vote for the ANC, because they do admit that BEE is flawed and plan to make it more beneficial to more blacks. Thats why I will always vote ANC.

Where is this plan? Nowhere.

And this is why I will never vote ANC.

They admit there are problems and they promise they will fix them, but they never ever do.

The ANC is a party full of empty promises.
 

Mila

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Quiet true that a few have gotten rich with BEE, to be honest with you I dont see anything wrong with a man becoming rich from BEE. There is othing wrong with a black man being rich. Methew phosa and other BEE guys have acknowledged that BEE needs to be broadened, and that they have benefitted without including the majority: READ THIS:Speaking at the same event, African National Congress Treasurer-General Mathews Phosa said the party "endorse[d] going forward with BEE and affirmative action.
Phosa said those that had benefited from BEE had to admit to it, in order to try and spread its reach.
"It is a fact that a few of us were empowered at the expense of the majority. If we don’t admit it, we will never correct it," he said.
He said skills development and BEE had to be implemented at the same time.
Phosa also said black business people should not just aspire to BEE.
"We must migrate from BEE to entrepreneurship. We have to move."
Phosa said these policies had to "bring the black people into the mainstream of the economy."
Phosa said the "white child" in South Africa, should also be given hope like the "black child".
Rather the aim of affirmative action policies was to "bring the black people into the mainstream of the economy," he said.

This is the reason I will always vote for the ANC, because they do admit that BEE is flawed and plan to make it more beneficial to more blacks. Thats why I will always vote ANC.

Racist:mad:
 

shadowfox

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One thing I notice about siphox is how he always goes "blacks, blacks, for blacks, by blacks , etc ... " Get off your horse mate ... the government is supposed to improve the lives of the country as a whole ... not just one section - be they majority or not.
 
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