Appalled at Vodacom for being billed for services I have no knowlegde of

[bwana]

there really was no need to make this adversarial. Yes they are wrong, there is no need to belabour the point.

Isnt there? As far as I can tell they operate with impunity.

I've said on occasion that having vodacom3g available here, and all the other company reps for that matter, is great - and I hope he realises that I would never attack him, especially for company policy. But understandably as a company rep he has a corporate line that he might be compelled to follow.

So yeah, I felt the need to mention what might be obvious.

 

[vodacom3g]

Bwana, I didn't feel the need to mention that the Cell companies profit from this sort of thing because A) Obviously they do; and B) I was appealing to Vodacom3G for answers or some kind of an appropriate response, and there really was no need to make this adversarial. Yes they are wrong, there is no need to belabour the point.

I trust V3G will have some input on this matter.

I'd like to get the complete story behind this case and will then revert.

It's not an easy one, how much do you police and how much do you allow freedom?

Take the case of government who wants to register every cellphone a visitor brings into the country. Near impossible to implement and guaranteed to annoy a lot of visitors. As with most policing systems, it will only annoy law-abiding people.

Same with 'policing' your on-line purchasing. Do you really want a Vodacom / MTN / Cell-C / Telkom to be informed of every transaction? Arguments on both sides.

Vodacom has a very strong code of conduct for WASPs and can (and have) kicked them off the network if they try and swindle the public. And will ensure the customers get refunded.

- WASP's should ensure all transactions are legit.
- If not the public will complain to Vodacom.
- If WASP is found in error, the appropriate actions will be taken including banning them from the network.

Let's see what this WASP come back with.

 

[lilDeath]

BigGiant__Head companies care about their customers? pfffttt
They will only start 'caring' when hundreds thousands / millions of clients are leaving in droves for better / cheaper / greener pastures.
Then they might start 'caring' when it hits them where it hurts: their bottomline, their pocket, uncomfortable questions in share holder meetings, etc.

I think I saw a cold front in Hell coming

 

[vodacom3g]

Vodacom3g I have gave you my contact number in the last PM I sent to you.I did recieved 2 phone calls from vodacom cust. care yesterday first from a lady and then later in the day from a gent by the name of Jihad. Both reponses was that they are still investigating the matter and they will come back to me with the proof today. I asked Jihad why it was taking so long to get to the bottom of this he told me they are waiting for Miro Networks to pruduce the proof for them. Apparently their server is ofline since Thursday last week.

Have you tried unsubscribing in the mean-time?

 

[bwana]

I've often wondered - When you send the unsubscribe message how much are you charged if it goes to the same number?

 

[lilDeath]

/gracefully restarts ic mod

Memory leak in progress

 

[vodacom3g]

BigGiant__Head companies care about their customers? pfffttt

I often wonder why I bother trying to engage in level-headed debate....

 

[pip]

I often wonder why I bother trying to engage in level-headed debate....

On an online forum? Seldom likely!

But I for one am pleased that you are here and have been impressed with your responses and efforts - so don't let us grind you down!

 

[bwana]

My feeling is that there should be a free-to-unsubscribe-sms-number that is automaticly appended by all of the network operators to all SMSes and MMSes sent by WASPs to anyone's phone, and that the network operators should charge the WASPs for the unsubscription SMSes, furthermore the network operators should then block any further SMSes and MMSes to an unsubscibed customer's cell number. When the WASPs start getting hit with reverse charges from the network operators [for unsubscriptions] then WASPs might start behaving.

Not wanting to belabour the subject but do you think then that in reality the opposite holds true and customers are charged to unsubscribe? Doesn't seem kosher to me.

I like the concept that the WASPs cover the charge for unsubscribing - doubt it will ever happen - but like it.

 

[Skeptik]

These blasted "subscription" services need to be regulated, or the networks need to take cancellations themselves. I have seen some of these ringtone and whatever ads on the TV - there are some terms and conditions in completely unreadable small print that whip past before you can even try and focus on them.

A bit like this one from Vodacom no less.
http://www.asasa.org.za/ResultDetail.aspx?Ruling=3220

If the networks were in any way service oriented they would do something to protect their users rather than slobber gleefully at the $$ they presumably get as their cut.

Too true. IMHO the networks give far too much leeway to the WASPS who then abuse the system at will. As long as both sides are gaining from this symbiotic relationship there will not be an effective solution.

The best way forward now is to contact the ASASA (Advertising Standards) and make an e-complaint via their website. (Make sure you give them all the facts & samples of the adverts) Let them rule whether this company has mislead you/us. If they have to withdraw their ads often enough they will soon get the message. It's a shame there aren't fines involved. The networks should really be policing this behaviour themselves. If they are not responsible to self-regulate, then ICASA should look into this sharpish and protect the public.

 

[dominic]

under the WASPA Code the max charge for an unsubscription is R1...

i have stated this elsewhere on the forum but please please follow the WASPA complaints route in respect of matters like this. as an independent adjudicator for WASPA i have seen so much nonsense from WASPs and i can also see that the industry is significantly cleaner thanks to WASPA's efforts

under th code of conduct and where a formal complaint is madethe independent adjudicators are given wide powers to deal with matters- reprimands, orders for compensation, fines, suspensions etc. If necessary action can be taken at network level & the rights of an informations providers (acting through a WASP) or of a WASP to use a particular short code or use the networks to access consumers can be suspended or revoked

the process really works

note that the WASPA code requires OPT-IN - there must be consent from the recipient before the mail will not be regarded as unsolicited. Bear in mind consent can be direct or indirect - see below. But irrespectve there must be consent...So, for example, if a friend of mine goes to one of these time share presentations and is told that she will get extra entries into a competition for every friend's mobile number she provides. So she provides mine and I get a message offering me time-share specials this is spam. She may have consented but i certainly have not and the scheme n no way tries to verfy whether she has got my consent to hand over the number (=personal information)

5.2.1. Any commercial message is considered unsolicited (and hence spam) unless:
(a) the recipient has requested the message;
(b) the message recipient has a direct and recent prior commercial relationship with the message originator and would reasonably expect to receive marketing communications from the originator; or
(c) the organisation supplying the originator with the recipient’s contact information has the recipient’s explicit consent to do so.

btw kudos to v3g for efforts to clear this up - this is not really Voda's problem . Aside from supporting WASPA the networks also have strict rules about what can be done by WASPs and are not shy to enforce these....

@ the moment there WASPA is at the tail end of dealing with the bundling of content with subscriptions - some major penalties have been handed out in the last 2-3 months

the major issues now as i see it is not bulk-sms providers but person to person spam - a lot more difficult to deal with (start at www.smscode.co.za)

with regard to the precedent complaints up on the WASPA site - yes there are some missing but a uge number of matters were recently finalised and the delay has more to do with getting these up on the site

take a moment to flip through the headers - mebbe even read through the first 3 complaints which make for interesting viewing

 

[bwana]

@dominic - thanks for the info - esp wrt the unsubscribing.

Glad to see there are some checks in place. How 'major' were these penalties you mentioned? In the millions?

 

[dominic]

fines more like hundreds of thousands...

but consider the economic effect of suspension from the use of the mobile networks

 

[dominic]

ic - the smscode site is now back and revamped and should be used the first port of call for the irate

Step 1
Need help identifying the owner of a commercial SMS or short code?

Enter the SMS number or the SMS short code that you would like information for in the box below, and click Submit.

Step 2
Use your search results to contact the owner regarding your complaint.
If the contact details of the company that sent the SMS are available, they will be provided to you. You can then contact them regarding the problem.

Step 3
Have any other questions, or not satisfied with the response to a complaint?
You can read the answers to some frequently asked questions below, or view the WASPA Code of Conduct for commercial SMS messages.

What is SMS "spam"?
Much like e-mail spam, an SMS message is considered to be spam if it was unsolicited and was sent by a company with the intention of selling you a product or service.

What should I do once I have the details of the owner?
Use the contact information provided for the owner, and submit your complaint directly to them.

What happens if they won't resolve the problem?
Contact WASPA by making use of the complaint form provided for such situations

i.e. for step three would then go to www.waspa.org.za

 

[pip]

ic - the smscode site is now back and revamped and should be used the first port of call for the irate

If the contact details of the company that sent the SMS are available, they will be provided to you. You can then contact them regarding the problem.

That bit is the problem. Invariably the number you enter turns up diddly squat, even if you fiddle its length ( some of the "numbers" showing on one's phone are very long ). My impression is that the site is a PR exercise, a sop to give the public the impression something is being done.

 

[dominic]

That bit is the problem. Invariably the number you enter turns up diddly squat, even if you fiddle its length ( some of the "numbers" showing on one's phone are very long ). My impression is that the site is a PR exercise, a sop to give the public the impression something is being done.

as stated above it is not really intended todeal with person to person spam - if you have any suggestions in this regard i am sure they would be welcome

otherwise i can happily state from personal experience that you are wrong and that the networks are taking abuse by WASPs very seriously and have thrown a fair amount of their resources at the problem

 

[bwana]

as stated above it is not really intended todeal with person to person spam - if you have any suggestions in this regard i am sure they would be welcome

I have a suggestion - allowing subscribers to selectively block smses from being received. Perhaps via the providers website - ie personalised SMS blacklisting.

I'd love to be able to blacklist all these please call me's that I get sent too. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm not going to.

 

[vodacom3g]

OK, to bring closure to the starting post.

The WASP, sms.ac, does in fact have a double check registration method. You register, they SMS you a unique code and you have to reply to that. So only a person who have the phone in question can register and use the service.

METOMAN's daughter did, in fact, register herself on this service and did go through the verification process to register herself.

The subscription was removed.

In this case it was a legitimate transaction just like many millions of other on-line registrations that happen everyday. Vodacom did not bill for services 'not known', rather it was an activate act to purchase the service by a family member.

The answer is to stop on-line purchasing and go back to producing proof (ID, etc.) by voice, fax or mail before we're allowed to purchase anything.

 

[pip]

as stated above it is not really intended todeal with person to person spam - if you have any suggestions in this regard i am sure they would be welcome

otherwise i can happily state from personal experience that you are wrong and that the networks are taking abuse by WASPs very seriously and have thrown a fair amount of their resources at the problem

I am pleased to hear this - you are obviously involved and I appreciate your comments. But my experience of looking up business spammers ( not person-to-person ) is not "wrong" and is as I have stated. Most recently, an ad for a new John Dorys, that I ended up dealing with via Spur head office. El zip number found on smscode.

 

[pip]

METOMAN's daughter did, in fact, register herself on this service and did go through the verification process to register herself.

...

In this case it was a legitimate transaction just like many millions of other on-line registrations that happen everyday.

Well done for sorting it out. If Metoman's daughter was a minor at the time I am not sure it was "legitimate". If it was technically legit, it was in any event slimy. Is any effort ever made to ask the potential subscriber whether they are over 18? I thought not!