Are Jews Correct about the Messiah?

Aqua_lung

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#1
Why don't Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah?
No Jew accepts Jesus as the Messiah. When someone makes that faith commitment, they become Christian. It is not possible for someone to be both Christian and Jewish.
Jews reject Jesus as the Messiah because he didn't fulfill Jewish expectations of the Messiah.
The Hebrew Bible (called the Old Testament by the non-Jewish world) is not proof for anything in the New Testament regarding a Messiah.

The Hebrew Bible describes the Messiah as a national savior who would arrive at the time of the Babylonian exile (hundreds of years before Christianity) and restore the nation of Israel with a capital at Jerusalem.

The original "messianic" aspirations of the Jewish People was to return from Exile and to restore the Davidic dynasty and the Jewish nation. While there was partial fulfillment of those hopes, given the return from Babylonia and the rebuilding of the Second Temple, new ideas were arising in that part of the world.

In fact, it's hard to "dissect" out the incredibly varied and related philosophical, religious, theological ideas that individuals and communities began to develop from 515 BCE - roughly the time of the beginning of the Second Temple - through the year 200 CE which was the editing of the Mishna, following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE and the failures of several revolts, especially that of Bar Kochba in 132 CE.

The major questions began to shift under Greek influence (Plato's idea of two entities - body and soul, material and spirit) and the Zoroastrian dualism of two competing forces, good and evil. When you complicate that mixture with the "obvious" reality of an unfair world in which the majority of people simply tried to survive, let alone hope for justice, equity and reward for their piety or their good deeds even though they witnessed many evil people "succeed" at least materially - there "had to be a better way." Enter the notion of a world after this one, or perhaps a time period after this present, where the good would be rewarded and the bad punished.

Hmmmm. That's a problem if you are dead. Soooo, we now have new theories of eternal spiritual selves awaiting a Day of Judgement or a theory of resurrection after which God would sort out the good from the bad people.

I hope you understand by now it's far from simple. In the middle of all this, some Jews began to look for a national leader - not unlike the restored kings of the Second Temple, the military leaders and kings, not unlike the Hasmoneans or Maccabbees (who turned out not to be what they started out being), perhaps even Bar Kochba - who would restore a Jewish country where Jews could live, worship and practice their own tradition. If and when you believe this, then the idea of a Messiah becomes part of the mix.

The various political and religious parties disagreed over such ideas, including that of a Messiah, and those who did believe in a future Messiah - not Jesus or any of the other messianic figures running about at that time - they survived and kept the belief and hope for a Messiah in our tradition such that Maimonides himself includes it in his essential principles of Jewish belief.

In sum, today some do and some don't believe in a personal Messiah or a person as a Messiah, and others speak of a messianic period when life is good for all humanity.

I don't preach to anyone what I believe, but I wouldn't object to a world at peace with families living free from terror and having all of their needs met.

For more information, please read "Judaism and Christinity: The Difference" by Dr. Trude Wesi Rosmarin. Best Wishes,

Rabbi Barry Dov Lerner
http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_c/bl_jesus.htm
I tend to agree with this actually, would like to see a Christian debunk this.
 

Park@82

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#3
Since there is allot of copy and pasting going around:
The word "Messiah" means "Anointed One," the name given to the promised Deliverer who would some day come to the people of Israel as their great Savior and Redeemer, "anointed" as Prophet, Priest, and King by God Himself.

Some, of course, are still looking for the fulfillment of these Old Testament promises in the future, when the "Messiah" will come to establish a world kingdom of peace and justice centered around the chosen nation, Israel.

On the other hand, the group of Jewish believers who became the first founders of Christianity were convinced that Jesus of Nazareth was their promised Messiah. The name "Christ" is the Greek equivalent of “Messiah,” so that the name Jesus Christ really means "Jesus the Messiah," or "Jesus the anointed." They preached this truth with such conviction and power that not only many Jews but, later, a still greater host of Gentiles, believed on Jesus, both as the Christ and also as the Lord and Savior of all men.

And indeed they had good reason for such faith. The Old Testament Messianic prophecies were found to be uniquely fulfilled in the Lord Jesus Christ. There are hundreds of these prophecies, so that the possibility of their accidental convergence on any ordinary man is completely ruled out by the laws of probability.

Some of the prophecies are so framed, in fact, as to preclude their fulfillment by anyone living after the first century A.D. For example, the patriarch Jacob said, in Genesis 49:10, "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come." The name “Shiloh” is a title of the Messiah, and the prophecy states that Judah's tribe would remain the chief tribe in Israel, in particular providing their kings, until Messiah would come. The prophecy must have been fulfilled prior to the destruction of Judah and Jerusalem in A.D. 70, by which time certainly all semblance of a scepter had departed from Judah.

Similarly the promise was given to King David that the Messiah should be one of his descendants, as the King eternal, the one of whom God said, "I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever" (II Samuel 7:13). Isaiah said, "There shall come forth a rod out of the stem (literally 'stump') of Jesse (that is David's father), and a Branch shall grow out of his roots" (Isaiah 11:1). This is another name of the Messiah, and indicates that, even after it would appear that the family tree of Jesse has been cut down, yet one Branch will grow out of the stump. Evidently the very last one who could be known to have come of this lineage would finally prove to be the promised Messiah!

This was fulfilled uniquely in Jesus. His foster father, Joseph, was in the royal line from David and thus held the legal right to the throne (Matthew 1:1-16). His mother, Mary, was also a descendant of David, as shown by her genealogy in Luke 3:23-31. But ever since the time of Jesus, it would be quite impossible to establish the legal or biological lineage of any pretender to David's throne, as all the ancient genealogical records were destroyed soon after that.

An even more striking prophecy is given in Daniel 9:24-27. There Daniel was told explicitly that Messiah would come 69 "sabbaths" (that is, 69 sabbatical years - a total of 483 years) after the decree was given to rebuild Jerusalem, which at that time lay in ruins after Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, had destroyed it.

Such a decree was given later by the Persian emperor. Although the exact date of the decree is somewhat uncertain, the termination date of the prophecy must have been some time in the first century A.D. In fact, it must have been before the destruction of the city and the temple by the Romans in A.D. 70, because the prophecy said quite explicitly: “After (the 483 years) shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself; and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary” (Daniel 9:26). Not only must Messiah come before this destruction, but He was also to be“cut off,” rejected and killed, before it came.

Jesus MosaicIt is obvious that no one but Jesus could have fulfilled these prophecies. The prophecies absolutely preclude any still future Messiah, except that even that hope also will find its fulfillment in the second coming of Christ.

And then, of course, there are still hundreds of other prophecies, all of which were fulfilled by Jesus Christ: His virgin birth (Isaiah 7:14); His birth in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2); His sacrificial death (Isaiah 53:5); His crucifixion (Psalm 22:14-18); His bodily resurrection (Psalm 16:10); and many others. All of these unite in their witness that “Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” (John 20:31).
found here.
 

Aqua_lung

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#4
Using parts of the New Testament to prove Jesus is the Messiah will obviously skew the result, you should be able to prove it with the old testament alone, and it should fulfill all of the prophecy not a select few.
 

krycor

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#5
If Jesus was the messiah you'd think the Jews would know wouldn't you?
1. They went astray prior
2. Weren't impressed that he was not from the leading tribes at the time. And they wanted the next to be from their own people.
 

Aqua_lung

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#6
Hmmmm. That's a problem if you are dead. Soooo, we now have new theories of eternal spiritual selves awaiting a Day of Judgement or a theory of resurrection after which God would sort out the good from the bad people.
The Rabi makes a valid point... Jesus died, Christians had the belief he would return but this was meant to happen soon after not 100, 1000 or 2000 years later, turns out he was an ordinary man.
 

Aqua_lung

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#7
Ok this is an extreme point of view that I don't fully agree with...
Jesus said in one passage: “You shall know them (the false prophets) by their fruits; a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit.” (Matt. vii. 16-18.) Now it happens that experience teaches us that the noblest trees produce, along with good fruit, much that is not edible; but we will keep him to his word. What have been the fruits of Christianity? has not Mr. Miller himself to acknowledge that for fifteen hundred years the tree which Christ had planted produced nothing but bad fruit, until Presbyterianism finally grew out of it, and that this very tree bears, at this day even, more bad than good fruits? We must once more revert to the passage cited above (Exod. xxxiii. 1-4), of which we have spoken already. As at one period Israel were deprived, on account of their sin, of the blessing that God should go before them, and they were compelled to content themselves with an angel: thus also caused their sins in not paying atention to the divine voice and becoming an exemplary people to <<515>>other nations, that from their own midst should arise an agent through whose means a large portion of the human family were lifted up from the low degree of heathenish absurdities to a higher state of knowledge of God—a knowledge which after all bears in itself such a mixture of truth and error of light and obscurity, that it has called forth an unending series of controversies, persecutions, autos-da-fé, and religious wars, through which causes Israelites especially have suffered much and grievously. http://www.jewish-history.com/Occident/volume8/jan1851/difference.html
But the point that Christianity(new testament) has not brought forth the promised kingdom just proves his point that maybe Jesus is not the Messiah and was one of the many holy men in that region like John the baptist who had a following and still has a religious following.
 

noxibox

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#9
Part of the problem is that the prophecies are vague. Like those of Nostradamus or the daily astrology column they can be retrofitted into events after the fact. It would have been easy for the authors to write the story of Jesus to conform to their interpretation of the prophecies. Either could easily result in the prophecy fulfillment being questioned later.

But ever since the time of Jesus, it would be quite impossible to establish the legal or biological lineage of any pretender to David's throne, as all the ancient genealogical records were destroyed soon after that.
How convenient.

There Daniel was told explicitly that Messiah would come 69 "sabbaths" (that is, 69 sabbatical years - a total of 483 years) after the decree was given to rebuild Jerusalem, which at that time lay in ruins after Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, had destroyed it.
How do we know this did not refer to some subsequent destruction?

Virgin birth - does the text even really say virgin? In addition to the lack of evidence that she really was a virgin.

His birth in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)
Also disputed.
 

Aqua_lung

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#10
Maybe my title is not the most PC.. but anyway, this I found interesting...
Question:
Can Jews believe in Christ?

Answer:
A Jew who believes in Jesus is considered to have denied the very basic tenets of Judaism. All Jewish groups agree that this is outside the realm of acceptability.

I suggest you read, "You Take Jesus, I'll Take G-d," or “The Real Messiah” –- both available in any Jewish bookstore or www.eichlers.com.

These books will explain Jewish great-great-great... grandparents who lived at the time of Jesus and who knew Jesus refused to accept him.

It will also explain why all Jewish ancestors continued to refuse to accept him -- even at the point of death, whether it was death by being thrown to the lions, or burned at the stake in the Inquisition, or death by pogrom.

It will also explain what a sad, despairing tragedy it is that some have abandoned their great heritage by believing in Jesus. Jews are generally are turned off by Christianity, even though they may be completely disconnected from traditional Judaism. Given this, some missionaries got the idea to try a backdoor tactic. They invented "Jews for Jesus," which uses a whole lexicon of Jewish-sounding buzz words in order to make Jesus more palatable to Jews.

For example, members of Jews for Jesus don't to church, they go to a "Messianic Synagogue." Prayer is not held on Sunday, but on Saturday, the Jewish Sabbath. They say that by accepting JC, you're not converting to Christianity, you're instead becoming "a fulfilled Jew." The New Testament is called "Brit Chadasha" (Hebrew for New Covenant). It's not the cross, it's "the tree." Not baptism, but "the mikveh." Not a communion wafer, but "matzah." Congregants wear a tallit and kipa, and bring a Torah scroll out of the Holy Ark - just like every other synagogue. After all, they proudly proclaim, Jesus himself was a Jew!

Having said this, you should note the following: In the book of Joshua 7:11, G-d declares that "Israel has sinned" due to a severe transgression done by the nation. The Talmud (Sanhedrin 44a) explains: Even though Israel has sinned, God still calls they by the name 'Israel.' In other words, they are still considered Jews. And that is how we know that a Jew is always a Jew no matter what.

Furthermore, a conversion to another religion is ineffective. A person is always Jewish - regardless of whether they reject their heritage, ignore it, or practice another religion.
With blessings from Jerusalem,

Rabbi Shraga Simmons
http://judaism.about.com/library/3_askrabbi_o/bl_simmons_christbelieve.htm
From a practical point of view I agree with Judaism, Jesus can't be the Messiah, he has not fulfilled all of the OT prophecy... Christians believe this will be achieved on the second coming but the second coming was an invention after the fact that he failed and they were proved wrong.

Regarding "The Second Coming"..
Christians wait in vain for an expected fulfillment of messianic prophecies during a second coming by Jesus. Their count is off. This would have to refer to a third coming. The first coming covers the period prior to Jesus' death and the second coming spans the period from his alleged resurrection to his alleged ascension.

Christian expressions of faith in the eventual fulfillment of the promise to return cannot be allowed to distort the facts. The New Testament's imminent expectation that Jesus would soon return and establish the kingdom of God was left unfulfilled. There was no visible signs of universal peace and prosperity, the destruction of Israel's enemies, a reuniting of the scattered exiles of Israel, and a reign of righteousness over the earth (e.g., Isaiah 2:23-24, Isaiah 11, Micah 4:1-3).

Jews still hold to this biblical conception of redemption. It is the absence of such characteristics that trouble Jews, then and now, concerning the Christian claim that Jesus was "the Christ."
http://jewsforjudaism.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=118&Itemid=372
As confirmed, the followers of Jesus have been duped, the period of the second coming has come and gone.

So in conclusion Jews are absolutely correct, Jesus cannot be the Messiah, Christianity is successful thanks to the first followers sending it to the untapped European market and Constantine making it official but it's a plagiarized religion stolen from Jews.
 

PeterCH

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#11
Why don't Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah?


I tend to agree with this actually, would like to see a Christian debunk this.
You're getting it wrong. Religion is not a fixed science like maths.

God never said how He'd behave.

Christians believe Christ is God on faith. It is faith largely through the fact that Christ died on the Cross and then rose again on day 3. Christ also performed miracles but the main proof lay in His Resurrection.
 

Aqua_lung

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#12
You're getting it wrong. Religion is not a fixed science like maths.

God never said how He'd behave.

Christians believe Christ is God on faith. It is faith largely through the fact that Christ died on the Cross and then rose again on day 3. Christ also performed miracles but the main proof lay in His Resurrection.
Yes it's about faith... but Jesus had not fulfilled the prophecies that Jews expected so he can't be the messiah.... the resurrection is hearsay anyway nothing cast in stone like many Jewish beliefs.
 

PeterCH

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#13
Yes it's about faith... but Jesus had not fulfilled the prophecies that Jews expected so he can't be the messiah.... the resurrection is hearsay anyway nothing cast in stone like many Jewish beliefs.
The resurrection of Jesus is cast in stone - it's the central tenet of early Christianity. Without that, there would be no Christian Church.

It's all the same hearsay anyway - there are no 10 Commandment Tablets either. It's all hearsay - otherwise it wouldn't be - religion. Oh and it's not the Jews who commanded Jehovah. Jehovah did not have to conform to Jewish opinion. He already showed them in the desert (remember Moses and the Calf of gold?) Jews rejected Christ - it was a mistake. Let's be clear here.

Again, you're going all wrong about it.
 

Aqua_lung

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#14
The resurrection of Jesus is cast in stone - it's the central tenet of early Christianity. Without that, there would be no Christian Church.

It's all the same hearsay anyway - there are no 10 Commandment Tablets either. It's all hearsay - otherwise it wouldn't be - religion. Oh and it's not the Jews who commanded Jehovah. Jehovah did not have to conform to Jewish opinion. He already showed them in the desert (remember Moses and the Calf of gold?) Jews rejected Christ - it was a mistake. Let's be clear here.

Again, you're going all wrong about it.
OK I was referring to the western wall, but even it's origins are disputed.

You're wrong, Jews have proven that Christ was not the Messiah, did he fullfill the second Coming? no, they made no mistake. So far Judaism has not been proven wrong and the more Christians belive in a second coming that has past it's expiry date the more Judaism is vindicated. He was an ordinary man with a huge following but not the Messiah.

Look... it's 2 against 1, even Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet but not the Messiah.
 

sutekj

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#15
My guess is that it makes the Jews feel like the lose something by admitting the messiah and the new testament.

According to the old testament the Jews are God's chosen people. Along comes Christianity and preaches that everyone are equal. Not so special anymore?

I think it's this attitude of the Jews/Zionists, that they are the chosen people, is what makes them so hated in many circles.

This is coming from someone who thinks all religions are bull****, although I do prefer Christianity's values over Islam and Judaism. But some good can be taken from any one of them.
 

Aqua_lung

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#16
I think it's this attitude of the Jews/Zionists, that they are the chosen people, is what makes them so hated in many circles.
In fairness the chosen people just means chosen to reveal the true God, and one of the fulfillments of the messiah is for everyone to worship the one God.
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:11-17)
This is the fault with Christian missionaries, they don't realize converting is the Job of the Messiah.(another Messiah fail on their part)

He is not meant to be Racist either..
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10)
So there is nothing malicious about "God's chosen people".
 

PeterCH

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#17
OK I was referring to the western wall, but even it's origins are disputed.
You're wrong, Jews have proven that Christ was not the Messiah, did he fullfill the second Coming? no, they made no mistake. So far Judaism has not been proven wrong and the more Christians belive in a second coming that has past it's expiry date the more Judaism is vindicated. He was an ordinary man with a huge following but not the Messiah.
Lol, you are arguing religion with PROOF?

Jews have proven NOTHING. Judaism cannot even prove their own beliefs, neither can Muslims, neither can anyone else. Neither can Christians.

That's what religion is - it is about faith. You don't see proof of God.
If we could see God, then we wouldn't have these arguments, everyone
would be a believer. But we don't see God and we don't have tangible proof - for us Christians that proof comes from the witness testimony of various writers who composed the New Testament - the described the miraculous Virgin birth of Jesus Christ, His work and miracles and finally His Death and Resurrection followed by His Ascension. That is our proof - however that is all testimony - there is no ancient video tape showing Jesus.

We, Christians (and that is a loose grouping of people from Orthodox Eastern Church to Catholic to old type Protestant to newer churches - fundamentalists like the New Born Christians, etc) all believe that CHRIST
is the MESSIAH- that CHRIST is God. The Hebrews called it blasphemy - they (Temple priests and Herod) had Pilate execute Christ but Christ arose on the 3rd day. God's religion did not die on the Cross and the apostles did not scatter - they all continued their work - and many were martyred - like St Peter - who is the first Pope in the Catholic faith. Please don't get your panties in a knot over this but there is no proof - nor is there proof in the Torah that the Messiah had to be a certain type - and as I told you before - the Hebrews did not control Jehovah, Jehovah could do what HE pleased - Jesus Christ is the Son of
Jehovah - that is what WE, Christians believe and that is what the Jews (who are not atheist or not Christian or other...) DO NOT believe.
By the way Jews for Jesus do believe this too. :)

There can be no tangible proof. There is no radioactive shroud or tomb showing a reaction which re-animated Jesus 2000 years ago. What you are suggesting and what I've been telling you repeatedly is that no matter what is written in the Torah or what the Hebrew tradition holds - God is not bound by that. God is not a dead god, He is not a paper god, there is no manual (Bible or Torah) which says God must behave like this or He isn't God. The Bible and Torah are written down by people and are not God, and God can do AS HE PLEASES. Jesus Christ was not a Jewish messiah - the Jewish messiah was a figure who'd have liberated Israel from
the Romans.



Look... it's 2 against 1, even Islam accepts Jesus as a prophet but not the Messiah.
Dude, but numerically more people are Christian than Muslim and Jew combined so you're in the minority.

You are wanting to use rational ideas to argue irrational topics. Religion and faith is quite irrational. God is invisible and can't be measured. Until He reveals Himself, we are just arguing irrational ideas here and you talk of proof?
 

PeterCH

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#18
Using parts of the New Testament to prove Jesus is the Messiah will obviously skew the result, you should be able to prove it with the old testament alone, and it should fulfill all of the prophecy not a select few.
You are suggesting that God must follow a certain blueprint.

You're agnostic right? So you don't really know what you're arguing. If you're a believer in God - you also believe that He is All powerful - He can do what he pleases.

Of course the Rabbi who posted the first post will say that Jesus is not the messiah. He got it all wrong (the Rabbi) - he's refusing to acknowledge that Christ is God. Oh well.....
 

lordrage

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#19
I just happened to be watching and surfing, and quite by chance the video I am watching deals with this issue. Using old testament prophecy and actual history.

Essentially the Jews missed their messiah, and he explains why too (very interesting regardless of your religious persuasion).

"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uBVH34b9zU&feature=PlayList&p=EB441D2BF3BFD1FF&index=0&playnext=1"

It is a playlist, there are 9 videos in this lecture (+- 90mins)
 

Aqua_lung

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#20
You are suggesting that God must follow a certain blueprint.

You're agnostic right? So you don't really know what you're arguing. If you're a believer in God - you also believe that He is All powerful - He can do what he pleases.

Of course the Rabbi who posted the first post will say that Jesus is not the messiah. He got it all wrong (the Rabbi) - he's refusing to acknowledge that Christ is God. Oh well.....
I'm just "non-religious", don't like being labeled... but anyway..

My point is to show that Judaism never missed the boat, there was no Messiah because not all the prophecy was fulfilled therefore they are in my view vindicated. Now I'm not denouncing Christianity, I know Christians believe Jesus is the Messiah so I'm not trying to prove them wrong when they've convinced themselves of this.

Peter you say in one post that Jews made a mistake by rejecting Jesus then in another post you say no religion can prove itself so you've contradicted yourself there.
 
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