Are Jews Correct about the Messiah?

Kornhole

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Even if this were all correct, which it isn't, the story of Jesus could easily have been written to correspond to the writers', in many cases wrong, interpretation of the texts of Judaism.
ok... :erm:
 

ghoti

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This is a good theory, problem is that it's not true.

Jesus was very popular among elites, though not all of them, so to suggest He was only popular amongst poor people only is misrepresenting Him.
Lies.. hahaha.

Christianity was despised by the elite when it started out. In fact, Christians made a point of only recruiting dumb people and poor people. That was there target audience at the start of Christianity.

Early Christians and apologetics confirm this in letters written to each other. In fact in one Christian debate between a early Christian and an old Pagan... the Pagan wrote a letter to the Christian telling him how stupid his religion is because he only has stupid and poor people following it.

The Christian doesnt like like you did rza and make absurd claims about the elite society.. the Christian agrees that their followers are not the brightest and claims thats how God wants them.

Of course you could have watered down the meaning of the word "elite" in your word twisting... but I am hoping you kept your answer a little straight at least.

It was only when religion was adopted as an official Roman religion did interlectuals and people with money get involved.
 

STS

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This is a good theory, problem is that it's not true.

Jesus was very popular among elites, though not all of them, so to suggest He was only popular amongst poor people only is misrepresenting Him. And I don't think any of his followers made any recongisable money from spreading the word, infact history tells us that those guys were living normal hardeworking lives. We also have to accept the fact that it was Jesus who guided His followers, so they just continued what He was doing when he was alive.
wasn't Jesus' real name Yeshua ben Joseph? :) i remember reading up on it somewhere.

Jesus lived in Galilee for most of his life and spoke Aramaic and possibly Hebrew and some Greek.[140] The name "Jesus" comes from an alternate spelling of the Latin (Iēsus) which in turn comes from the Greek name Iesous (Ιησους). In the Septuagint Ιησους is used as the Greek version of the Hebrew name Yehoshua (יהושוע, "God delivers" from Yeho — Yahweh [is] shua` — deliverance/rescue) in the Biblical book of the same name, usually Romanized as Joshua. Some scholars believe that one of these was likely the name that Jesus was known by during his lifetime by his peers.[141] Thus, the name has been translated into English as "Joshua".[142]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus

i also understand that he is where the principle and basis of the freemasons comes from :)
 

Kornhole

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Lies.. hahaha.

Christianity was despised by the elite when it started out. In fact, Christians made a point of only recruiting dumb people and poor people. That was there target audience at the start of Christianity.

Early Christians and apologetics confirm this in letters written to each other. In fact in one Christian debate between a early Christian and an old Pagan... the Pagan wrote a letter to the Christian telling him how stupid his religion is because he only has stupid and poor people following it.

The Christian doesnt like like you did rza and make absurd claims about the elite society.. the Christian agrees that their followers are not the brightest and claims thats how God wants them.

Of course you could have watered down the meaning of the word "elite" in your word twisting... but I am hoping you kept your answer a little straight at least.

It was only when religion was adopted as an official Roman religion did interlectuals and people with money get involved.
Very true indeed lol You couldn't go to the elite because you would get killed-the emperor was the only one with 'absolute power'. Hope I am right :eek:
 

rza

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I mentioned before that according to Judaism Jesus was a false prophet and that an observing Jew would easily reject Jesus, this sums it up nicely..


And more here...

http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm
Now I know that Christians accept Jesus and don't believe this, but to me it's obvious that Jesus is not the Messiah.
There were many such people like Jesus that claimed to be the Messiah and had followers, only his followers got lucky.

Aqua_lung my friend, the problem with your statement is that Jesus didn't depart from the Law, and I can prove that there's nothing Jesus said that is not in the Law.

As for quoting Daniel, I think you need to study Daniel a little bit more. There's no Rabbi in the world who would claim Jesus is who Daniel is talking about. The problem with you using Daniel is the fact that you didn't read the whole of Daniel, otherwise you would have acknowledged that Daniel's prophecy has a timeframe and certain things have to happen in that timeframe. If you insist on using Daniel to discredit Jesus then you would have to call Daniel a false prophet because all he said would have happened 2000 years ago but hasn't happened yet. You also might find it interesting to note that Jesus continued to preach what Daniel preached about.
 

rza

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Lies.. hahaha.

Christianity was despised by the elite when it started out. In fact, Christians made a point of only recruiting dumb people and poor people. That was there target audience at the start of Christianity.

Early Christians and apologetics confirm this in letters written to each other. In fact in one Christian debate between a early Christian and an old Pagan... the Pagan wrote a letter to the Christian telling him how stupid his religion is because he only has stupid and poor people following it.

The Christian doesnt like like you did rza and make absurd claims about the elite society.. the Christian agrees that their followers are not the brightest and claims thats how God wants them.

Of course you could have watered down the meaning of the word "elite" in your word twisting... but I am hoping you kept your answer a little straight at least.

It was only when religion was adopted as an official Roman religion did interlectuals and people with money get involved.
When people make statement regarding the past, it's always appreciated to mention sources than use 'hear say' as sources.

You are right in some cases, some (if not most) of Jesus' most distinguished disciples were fishermen who had little or no education. However Jesus also had some very highly educated and prominent disciples like Matthew (Tax collector), Nicodemus (religious expert), Zachhaeus (chief tax collector), Luke (medical doctor), Paul (high ranking govt official), etc. So it's not right to say Jesus targeted poor people only. But the bible mentions something very interesting, it says "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong" (1 Corinthians 1:27).

One of the reasons rich and noble people rejected Jesus is because of His teachings like the following: "What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Matthew 16:26). He didn't help by telling a young rich ruler to sell all he had so he can have riches in heaven (Matthew 19). Even today, most rich and noble people reject Jesus because He teaches that riches can't buy a place in heaven. The problem with certain rich people is that they want their riches and wisdom to be rewarded with sainthood. They want their status to be recognised in churches, they want to be treated differently from poor people. Instead Jesus tells everybody (rich or poor) that you need to admit that you are a sinner and repent before you can go to heaven. Of course that's a bitter pill to swallow for noble people. Imagine telling the most respected man in the world that he's a sinner and they are destined for hell if they don't repent. Do you think he'll repent when billions of people think he's a saint? My bet is he'll declare Jesus a lunatic.

Increase in atheism is not caused by people's lack of belief in Jesus and God, it's caused by people's unwillingness to acknowledge that they have the same gate to heaven as a poor person begging for 20c in robots. Since rich people live in posh suburbs, they expect to be in posh heaven while poor people should go to a lesser posh heaven. Educated people expect to worship in posh churches while all poor people go to some small filthy church. Jesus said you are a sinner, whether rich or poor, wise or stupid, Jew or gentile. Of course Jews didn't like that, they expected to be the only nation going to heaven, while everybody else goes to hell. Jesus said clearly that being Jewish or rich or Catholic, or Protestant, or Arab, or African doesn't guarantee anybody heaven, everybody has to be born-again.

It's been 2000 years, and people still expect special treatment before they approach the cross. It's either you take it or leave it.
 

porn$tar

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Jesus said clearly that being Jewish or rich or Catholic, or Protestant, or Arab, or African doesn't guarantee anybody heaven, everybody has to be born-again.
So unless you're a born-again Christian you're doomed? right...
 

rza

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So unless you're a born-again Christian you're doomed? right...
I don't like giving my opinion, so I'll let Jesus say it Himself:

New International Version (©1984)
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again."
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

International Standard Version (©2008)
Jesus replied to him, "Truly, I tell you with certainty, unless a person is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God."

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus replied to Nicodemus, "I can guarantee this truth: No one can see the kingdom of God without being born from above."

King James Bible
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

American King James Version
Jesus answered and said to him, Truly, truly, I say to you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

American Standard Version
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Bible in Basic English
Jesus said to him, Truly, I say to you, Without a new birth no man is able to see the kingdom of God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
Jesus answered, and said to him: Amen, amen I say to thee, unless a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Darby Bible Translation
Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except any one be born anew he cannot see the kingdom of God.

English Revised Version
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Webster's Bible Translation
Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Weymouth New Testament
"In most solemn truth I tell you," answered Jesus, "that unless a man is born anew he cannot see the Kingdom of God."

World English Bible
Jesus answered him, "Most certainly, I tell you, unless one is born anew, he can't see the Kingdom of God."

Young's Literal Translation
Jesus answered and said to him, 'Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;

There's no translation error, no need for interpretation, it's as claer as a blue sky, if ever the sky is blue.
 

ghoti

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When people make statement regarding the past, it's always appreciated to mention sources than use 'hear say' as sources.

You are right in some cases, some (if not most) of Jesus' most distinguished disciples were fishermen who had little or no education. However Jesus also had some very highly educated and prominent disciples like Matthew (Tax collector), Nicodemus (religious expert), Zachhaeus (chief tax collector), Luke (medical doctor), Paul (high ranking govt official), etc. So it's not right to say Jesus targeted poor people only. But the bible mentions something very interesting, it says "But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong" (1 Corinthians 1:27).

One of the reasons rich and noble people rejected Jesus is because of His teachings like the following: "What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?" (Matthew 16:26). He didn't help by telling a young rich ruler to sell all he had so he can have riches in heaven (Matthew 19). Even today, most rich and noble people reject Jesus because He teaches that riches can't buy a place in heaven. The problem with certain rich people is that they want their riches and wisdom to be rewarded with sainthood. They want their status to be recognised in churches, they want to be treated differently from poor people. Instead Jesus tells everybody (rich or poor) that you need to admit that you are a sinner and repent before you can go to heaven. Of course that's a bitter pill to swallow for noble people. Imagine telling the most respected man in the world that he's a sinner and they are destined for hell if they don't repent. Do you think he'll repent when billions of people think he's a saint? My bet is he'll declare Jesus a lunatic.

Increase in atheism is not caused by people's lack of belief in Jesus and God, it's caused by people's unwillingness to acknowledge that they have the same gate to heaven as a poor person begging for 20c in robots. Since rich people live in posh suburbs, they expect to be in posh heaven while poor people should go to a lesser posh heaven. Educated people expect to worship in posh churches while all poor people go to some small filthy church. Jesus said you are a sinner, whether rich or poor, wise or stupid, Jew or gentile. Of course Jews didn't like that, they expected to be the only nation going to heaven, while everybody else goes to hell. Jesus said clearly that being Jewish or rich or Catholic, or Protestant, or Arab, or African doesn't guarantee anybody heaven, everybody has to be born-again.

It's been 2000 years, and people still expect special treatment before they approach the cross. It's either you take it or leave it.
My God but do you lie! Im outta this thread.
 

Aqua_lung

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Aqua_lung my friend, the problem with your statement is that Jesus didn't depart from the Law, and I can prove that there's nothing Jesus said that is not in the Law.

As for quoting Daniel, I think you need to study Daniel a little bit more. There's no Rabbi in the world who would claim Jesus is who Daniel is talking about. The problem with you using Daniel is the fact that you didn't read the whole of Daniel, otherwise you would have acknowledged that Daniel's prophecy has a timeframe and certain things have to happen in that timeframe. If you insist on using Daniel to discredit Jesus then you would have to call Daniel a false prophet because all he said would have happened 2000 years ago but hasn't happened yet. You also might find it interesting to note that Jesus continued to preach what Daniel preached about.
Funny you should accuse me of not reading all of Daniel because there was a twist at the the end, if you clicked the link and read the article in full you would have read this at the end...
Ours is the last generation of the era of sin and evil and the first of the Messianic Era. Indeed, for the first time in history, there is a growing consensus of leading rabbis willing to name the man most suited to be the Messiah, and they are agreeing that he is the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson. The Rebbe is the spiritual leader of our generation, having boldly stirred up controversy over vital issues in which other leaders have remained tragically silent or have even caved in to the growing forces of darkness. He has upheld the Law perfectly and has worked mightily to strengthen the observance of the Law by Jews, as well as the observance of the Noachide Law by gentiles. Through his teaching of chasidus (Jewish mystical teachings, preserved from Moses and Mount Sinai), he has taught the world that G-d is One, the Infinite Who renews creation at every moment. The Rebbe is a direct descendant of King David and has received a true prophecy from G-d that we who are alive in this generation shall be the first in history to see the coming of the true messiah. Many Jews are eagerly anticipating the Rebbe's resurrection from the grave, ready to re-establish the Sanhedrin and anoint the king.

Our job is to finish preparing the way, by announcing the truth and bringing all of mankind back to the Law immediately. Through our divinely mandated efforts, we shall now clear the path for the return of the Garden of Eden and the establishment of the eternal sinless world promised by Isaiah and the other Biblical prophets.
Now being a Christian this might seem ridiculous to you(it is to me) but the Rebbe is well known...
Education and Sharing Day is a day made by the United States Congress in honor of Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson's the Lubavitcher Rebbe (1902-1994) efforts for education and sharing for Jews and non-Jews alike. During his lifetime the Rabbi opened scores of centers of education called "Chabad Houses". The day was inaugurated April 18, 1978, by President Jimmy Carter and has since been proclaimed, by the presiding President, annually on the Jewish birthday of Menachem Mendel Schneerson (11 Nissan). In 2009 it was marked on April 5.[1]
He has a day named after him and if you read up on his life heads of state consulted him. Now he never claimed to be the Messiah only that he has set a path but he has followers who call him the Messiah.(Sound familiar?)

Now you see, what if he is the Messiah, Jesus called himself the Messiah he was laughed at, killed but his movement grew after his death.

All 3 Abraham religions believe in a coming Messiah(or return) and I'll mention another one who claimed to be it, Bab...

Bahá'ís claim that the Báb was also the return of Elijah and John the Baptist, that he was the "Ushídar-Máh" referred to in the Zoroastrian scriptures,[1] and that he was the forerunner of their own religion. Bahá'u'lláh, the founder of the Bahá'í Faith, was a follower of the Báb and claimed to be the fulfillment of his promise that God would send another messenger.
link
He was executed for his claims and 160 years after his claim he has a religion with a few Million followers already...
The Bahá'í Faith is a monotheistic religion founded by Bahá'u'lláh in nineteenth-century Persia, emphasizing the spiritual unity of all humankind.[1] There are an estimated five to six million Bahá'ís around the world in more than 200 countries and territories.
link

So you see... it's really easy to claim to be the Messiah and create a following.
 
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rza

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Aqua_Lung, I have a Jewish friend of mine and I'm gonna tell you what I always tell him. What does the bible say about Rebbe? Forget what rabbis are saying, tell me what the bible says. Did Rebbe fulfill what's written about the messiah in the bible? Does Rebbe's life agree with Daniel's prophecy? Did Rebbe comes to earth with clouds while everybody is watching, as prophets say?

I only have bad things to say about rabbis, but I'll let God say them: "my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God" (Hosea 4:6).

Don't be rejected along with these rabbis, make the Word of God your final authority, if the bible doesn't say it then don't believe it.
 

Aqua_lung

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Aqua_Lung, I have a Jewish friend of mine and I'm gonna tell you what I always tell him. What does the bible say about Rebbe? Forget what rabbis are saying, tell me what the bible says. Did Rebbe fulfill what's written about the messiah in the bible? Does Rebbe's life agree with Daniel's prophecy? Did Rebbe comes to earth with clouds while everybody is watching, as prophets say?

I only have bad things to say about rabbis, but I'll let God say them: "my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God" (Hosea 4:6).

Don't be rejected along with these rabbis, make the Word of God your final authority, if the bible doesn't say it then don't believe it.
Rebbe never called himself the Messiah, he stuck to biblical law and prepared the way for the promised Jewish Messiah. There are a few who believe Rebbe to be the Messiah and who await his resurrection but he never claimed this. Not all Jews agree with Rebbe though, just a large amount mostly pro Israel believe him to be a prophet.
 

rza

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Rebbe never called himself the Messiah, he stuck to biblical law and prepared the way for the promised Jewish Messiah. There are a few who believe Rebbe to be the Messiah and who await his resurrection but he never claimed this. Not all Jews agree with Rebbe though, just a large amount mostly pro Israel believe him to be a prophet.
My prayer for Jewish people is for them to read their bibles (OT) and stop relying on commentaries from rabbis. David said: Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path (Psalm 119:105). He relied on the bible to discern the times and evaluate people's credentials. How would you know if Rebbe is the messiah if you don't read the bible?

I can assure you that no Jew who reads the bible everyday will fail to believe in Jesus Christ. The whole book of Psalms is full of Jesus Christ, Moses talked about Jesus Christ, Abraham met Jesus Christ, Isaiah talks about Jesus in some cases throughout the whole chapter, Ezekiel and Jeremiah talk about Jesus Christ, the list is endless. The problem is that Jews rely on rabbis to read the bible for them, and thus fail to see Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. :mad:
 

Aqua_lung

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My prayer for Jewish people is for them to read their bibles (OT) and stop relying on commentaries from rabbis. David said: Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light for my path (Psalm 119:105). He relied on the bible to discern the times and evaluate people's credentials. How would you know if Rebbe is the messiah if you don't read the bible?

I can assure you that no Jew who reads the bible everyday will fail to believe in Jesus Christ. The whole book of Psalms is full of Jesus Christ, Moses talked about Jesus Christ, Abraham met Jesus Christ, Isaiah talks about Jesus in some cases throughout the whole chapter, Ezekiel and Jeremiah talk about Jesus Christ, the list is endless. The problem is that Jews rely on rabbis to read the bible for them, and thus fail to see Jesus Christ in the Old Testament. :mad:
Actually that is why Jews don't go running after people calling themselves the Messiah, they consult a Rabbi who studies the OT to guide them.
 

rza

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Actually that is why Jews don't go running after people calling themselves the Messiah, they consult a Rabbi who studies the OT to guide them.
Why should they consult a Rabbi when they can read it themselves? I'm not questioning the authority of Rabbis, but history is against them and as a Christian I fail to have faith in them. I can assure you that if every Jew had a bible and were reading them then the messiah would have came back long time ago. There's a perception based on 1st century era Rabbis that Jesus' teachings and His credentials are not correlating to the teachings of Old Testament, and Rabbis are spreading this perception even further. Because bible reading by regular Jews is not part of life, people have ended up believing this myth even though all teachings by Moses and other prophets justify Jesus.

Do you have a bible?
 

Aqua_lung

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Why should they consult a Rabbi when they can read it themselves? I'm not questioning the authority of Rabbis, but history is against them and as a Christian I fail to have faith in them. I can assure you that if every Jew had a bible and were reading them then the messiah would have came back long time ago. There's a perception based on 1st century era Rabbis that Jesus' teachings and His credentials are not correlating to the teachings of Old Testament, and Rabbis are spreading this perception even further. Because bible reading by regular Jews is not part of life, people have ended up believing this myth even though all teachings by Moses and other prophets justify Jesus.

Do you have a bible?
I had a bible, you are missing the point...

would you like it if your kids went to school and were handed textbooks and told to figure it out themselves? they would fail, a rabbi is a teacher who passes on the laws and guide them to follow it.
 

rza

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I had a bible, you are missing the point...

would you like it if your kids went to school and were handed textbooks and told to figure it out themselves? they would fail, a rabbi is a teacher who passes on the laws and guide them to follow it.
I don't disagree with Rabbis protocol and guidelines, but people should read the whole of the bible themselves, including children. If you only read certain sections then you'll easily get mislead which has been the case many times in the history of Israel.
 

Aqua_lung

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I don't disagree with Rabbis protocol and guidelines, but people should read the whole of the bible themselves, including children. If you only read certain sections then you'll easily get mislead which has been the case many times in the history of Israel.
Not everyone has the time, Rabbis do and Rabbis as I have posted before show that Jesus goes against the most important laws therefore he can't be the Messiah.
 

Jenemesis

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Dearest Fellow Believers

Yashua did not come as the Messiah yet, HE came as the Sacrificial Lamb and He is still to return as The Messiah, but not before the Holy Nation of Kings and Priests come to the knowledge of Him when the time for the gentiles has come to an end!
The Gentiles also need to be firmly graphted into the Hebrew roots and forsake all their "christianistic" influences that are not from the original church which was Jewish!! Pentecost was all and only Jews!!!
Xmas and easter and all the other things are traditions of pagan origin that were popularised by gentiles not having the rich heritage of the Hebrews!
Gentiles are meant to be adopted into sonship of Abraham, NOT Jewish to adopt christianity which itself needs to repent of many short-comings!!!
Three of the Feasts of the Lord have been fulfilled but four remain to be fulfilled and the interesting thing here is:
There will be two sackcloth suns and four total lunar eclipses on the exact dates of these particular Feasts in the Hebrew calendar of 2014
The Fig Tree is starting to bud and multiples of Olim making Aliyah will be there to witness these events!!!!
The last time these heavenly signs fell in sequence on the Feast of The Lord days were at Calvary, 1492, 1948 and 1967!!!!
Although we may never know the hour or the day as the earth labours towards His coming again, we will know the month, the signs of the times and perhaps even the week so as the Scriptures say: be sober minded and Watchful!!!!
 
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Aqua_lung

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Yashua did not come as the Messiah yet, HE came as the Sacrificial Lamb and He is still to return as The Messiah, but not before the Holy Nation of Kings and Priests come to the knnowledge of Him when the time for the gentiles has come to an end!
The Gentiles also need to be firmly graphted into the Hebrew roots and forsake all their "christianistic" influences taht are not from the original church which was Jewish!
Xmas and easter and all the other things are traditions of pagan origin that were popularised by gentiles not having the rich heritage of the Hebrews!
Gentiles are meant to be adopted into sonship of Abraham, not Jewish to adopt christianity which itself needs to repent of many short-comings!!!
Three of the Feasts of the Lord have been fulfilled but four remain to be fulfilled and the interesting thing here is:
There will be two sackcloth suns and four total lunar eclipses on the exact dates of these particular Feasts in the Hebrew calendar of 2014
The Fig Tree is starting to bud and multiples of Olim making Aliyah will be there to witness these events!!!!
The last time these heavenly signs fell in sequence on the Feast of The Lord days were at Calvary, 1492, 1948 and 1967!!!!
Although we may never know the hour or the day as the earth labours towards His coming again, we will know the month, the signs of the times and perhaps even the week so as the Scriptures say: be sober minded and Watchful!!!!
Are you Jewish or making stuff up?
 
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