Are you interested in Starlink?

Are you considering Starlink?

  • Yes - take my money

    Votes: 87 22.0%
  • Will wait and see

    Votes: 178 44.9%
  • Not interested

    Votes: 131 33.1%

  • Total voters
    396

Geoff.D

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
19,247
Not going to quote it all because that's one wall of text. My whole argument for the lower latency is based upon theoretical numbers and calculations as to what is possible given that it does the following for long backhaul transit.

User -> 380km Low Orbit satellite -> Backhaul Sattelite at 500-1100km -> around 5 hops over the transit satellites in the higher orbit. Given that the distance between Johannesburg and London is 9070km in a straight line distance. I will work out the actual orbital distance at 1000km when I have some time. So as an example im going to throw on 50% leeway so 9070*1.50 = 13605km distance.

Using the current speed of fibre it would cover that 13605 km in roughly ~138ms and that is with a 50% leeway on the distance, which might be somewhat more accurate than my previous calculations. Then if you going up and down 1000km each way that's 2000km which adds another 22ms. So total latency is 160ms from JHB to London. This includes a transit latency of 1ms per a satellite over around 5-6 hops.

I get that this is basically on par with current latency. I mean, if we managed to get a fibre path through Africa its 12,877km From Johannesburg via current African roads. Having a fibre backhaul here would give us 137ms (JHB -> London) and 117ms to Spain.

This is all assuming I am being a realist on how the tech will function and how there is a 99% chance it's useless for a low latency project like I am suggesting. But, hear me out. There is a chance.

Best Case Scenario for Starlink

Starlink as a backhaul provider from JHB Datacentre to London Datacentre.

I need to point out that Starlink is rolling out lasers as it will act as a major backhaul on inter-satellite connection, which lowers latency and the lasers actually are faster than fibre, don't forget that. Speed of light in space/vacuum. Light travels at 300,000 km/s in a vacuum, but when in glass it around 200,000 km/s. This means that it is technically 50% faster than what fibre would be. For the sake of SCIENCE, I would say we can assume it will be ~40% faster than current fibre optics in transition speed.

Johannesburg -> 380km Low Orbit satellite -> Backhaul Sattelite at 1100km -> around 8 hops over the transit satellites in the higher orbit. Given that the distance between Johannesburg and London is 9070km in a straight line. It would be around 13,000km given the extra distance of the satellites all not being in a line and the distance from the ground to orbit.

The latency on fibre over that distance would be 132ms with 1ms equipment latency.
On a laser backhaul (the 10,000km distance) it would be around 88ms + 22ms for the transit from the ground up, giving us a total latency from JHB - LONDON at around 110ms. Then your usual 2-5ms hop for the people in JHB and you can get a latency of 112-115ms.

Now another exciting point is the whole, a bunch of servers are located lower in Europe, such as Paris. Which is around 8728km at 20% leeway that's around 10473km = 106ms with 200 KM/millisecond fibre or 72ms with 299 KM/millisecond laser transit.

This is where I get excited.

Disclaimer: I am a crazy low latency person. But for interest sake, watch this video with a grain of salt.
Congrats. You have caught up to something at least 3 of us posted already weeks ago in this thread.

The facts are really simple.
There will never be enough ISL capacity to make any of this a reality in the Starlink network for more than absolutely mission-critical traffic.
There is a far more likely scenario that ISL links between GSO satellites just might happen before LEOs can get there, and then there are only 3 satellites required to get around the globe.

Getting excited about the realities of the physics behind the speed of light is really, really old news like when Maxwell developed just about everything we know about electromagnetic waves.

If you want to see a total analysis of latency and how t can be used, read some of Isaac Asimov's books on truly long haul communications within our own planetary system.
 

ghostRgg

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2019
Messages
755
Congrats. You have caught up to something at least 3 of us posted already weeks ago in this thread.

The facts are really simple.
There will never be enough ISL capacity to make any of this a reality in the Starlink network for more than absolutely mission-critical traffic.
There is a far more likely scenario that ISL links between GSO satellites just might happen before LEOs can get there, and then there are only 3 satellites required to get around the globe.

Getting excited about the realities of the physics behind the speed of light is really, really old news like when Maxwell developed just about everything we know about electromagnetic waves.

If you want to see a total analysis of latency and how t can be used, read some of Isaac Asimov's books on truly long haul communications within our own planetary system.
I actually posted about it weeks ago, I just wanted to get there on my own time with more accurate numbers. Nothing wrong with getting excited over things that have already been found out or discussed, I knew about them but when you get to get to see that the tech is being used in this manner, that's a different story.

Either way, I was talking mostly theoretical and only possibility is if countries can bid for backhaul capabilities for their networks, but again, probably all government and military use only.

Still wouldn't mind being proven wrong, it is what it is. I will stick to my "lets bore a straight line through Africa to Europe" project :p
 

haroldj

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2010
Messages
131
I'm in the country.
We will never get fibre. There hasn't even been a telephone line in the district for 20 years now. Even then too far for DSL. in the town DSL is only 4Mbps, when Telkom is working.
There are no 5G towers and 4G is pathetic out here. Mobile data is expensive. We can't even take advantage of Telkom or RAIN.
We are restricted to WISPs. In my district there is only one provider.

Up/Down SoftCap/HardCap
2Mbps/0.2Mbps 360Gb/720Gb = R900pm
5Mbps/0.5Mbps 720Gb/1500Gb = R1500pm
10Mbps/1Mbps 1500Gb/3000Gb = R2500

Very sensitive to load shedding as there are at least 3 towers between our local tower at point of origin. These are all in different areas, so a 2 hour load shed could mean 6 hours off / reduced speed.

So R1500 for 50Mbps is a bargain even if you have to pay for the equipment. Still cheaper than a WISP 10Mbps when adding R1000pm/7 months for the equipment. (R1500+R1000 for 50Mbps vs R2500 for 10Mbps)
This stuff is specially made for you guys, hope starlink sees that and don't give access to people who already have fiber, 5G and Lte. The guys who have Fiber and 5G should not really apply.
 

Dairyfarmer

Executive Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2016
Messages
5,567
This stuff is specially made for you guys, hope starlink sees that and don't give access to people who already have fiber, 5G and Lte. The guys who have Fiber and 5G should not really apply.
I think it is also priced to discourage fibre/LTE/5G.
 

wingnut771

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
11,806
I had the opportunity to use someone's satellite internet just the other day. A new installation, 10 meg down, 5 up.
The most pitiful experience of connectivity I've ever had. Awful. Latency was insane. Dial-up was better.
Pass.
You don't know what you're talking about. Apples and oranges.
 

Johand

Expert Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2005
Messages
1,613
I personally feel Starlink has the potential to solve our latency issues, we could be looking at 70-80ms to London from South Africa as an example. Provided the rollout goes smoothly.

Long term maybe. Current v1 satellites doesn't have laser links. Lots of logistics and technical hurdles and testing and maturing needed for laser links. So MAYBE, in the FAR FUTURE. Probably only in 5 years at earliest as current Starlink satellites are replaced.

All of the above is based on physics. Light travels at a fixed speed through lengths of glass. The longer the path, the higher the latency. And then there's actual processing that happens at dozens of locations along the path, each of which adds a small amount of latency to the travel of a packet.

Nope. Speed of light in fibre is approximately half that of light in a vacuum. Latency to and from the satellite also not really an issue -- because fibre is not laid in straight lines you can easily have a couple of hundred kilometers detour. Issue with first gen Starlink is you have the satellite distance AND the detour of the fibre.

So yes - Starlink has the potential for some AMAZING latency. In future. But hold your horses. Starlink is not going to work in densely populated areas with dense uptake. If you live in a city fibre will most likely always be the better choice. If you live on a farm or small town -- it will be amazing.
 

Half_Frog

Expert Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
Messages
2,154
I'm in the country.
We will never get fibre. There hasn't even been a telephone line in the district for 20 years now. Even then too far for DSL. in the town DSL is only 4Mbps, when Telkom is working.
There are no 5G towers and 4G is pathetic out here. Mobile data is expensive. We can't even take advantage of Telkom or RAIN.
We are restricted to WISPs. In my district there is only one provider.

Up/Down SoftCap/HardCap
2Mbps/0.2Mbps 360Gb/720Gb = R900pm
5Mbps/0.5Mbps 720Gb/1500Gb = R1500pm
10Mbps/1Mbps 1500Gb/3000Gb = R2500

Very sensitive to load shedding as there are at least 3 towers between our local tower at point of origin. These are all in different areas, so a 2 hour load shed could mean 6 hours off / reduced speed.

So R1500 for 50Mbps is a bargain even if you have to pay for the equipment. Still cheaper than a WISP 10Mbps when adding R1000pm/7 months for the equipment. (R1500+R1000 for 50Mbps vs R2500 for 10Mbps)
I agree

Out on the farm the only signal we have is MTN and its barely 3G.
 

Half_Frog

Expert Member
Joined
Feb 24, 2011
Messages
2,154
Or it says 4G, but you can't connect. Tell the phone to use 3G and suddenly you have some internet.
My phone is on Vodacom. Cell C has some 2G signal and voice calls kinda work. MTN is the only one that has data signal in the area
 

SauRoNZA

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
39,034
Pretty impressive even for an empty network at this point.


Sure it did die in the middle of testing, but for people who have to date only had crapper satellite services or terrible LTE coverage and likely even bad ADSL it will certainly be a step up.

It's not going to compete with fibre and 5G, but it's a very solid third option.

If nothing else the North and South poles will finally have decent internet.
 

SauRoNZA

Honorary Master
Joined
Jul 6, 2010
Messages
39,034
I'm in the country.
We will never get fibre. There hasn't even been a telephone line in the district for 20 years now. Even then too far for DSL. in the town DSL is only 4Mbps, when Telkom is working.
There are no 5G towers and 4G is pathetic out here. Mobile data is expensive. We can't even take advantage of Telkom or RAIN.
We are restricted to WISPs. In my district there is only one provider.

Up/Down SoftCap/HardCap
2Mbps/0.2Mbps 360Gb/720Gb = R900pm
5Mbps/0.5Mbps 720Gb/1500Gb = R1500pm
10Mbps/1Mbps 1500Gb/3000Gb = R2500

Very sensitive to load shedding as there are at least 3 towers between our local tower at point of origin. These are all in different areas, so a 2 hour load shed could mean 6 hours off / reduced speed.

So R1500 for 50Mbps is a bargain even if you have to pay for the equipment. Still cheaper than a WISP 10Mbps when adding R1000pm/7 months for the equipment. (R1500+R1000 for 50Mbps vs R2500 for 10Mbps)
You are the exact target market for this product and it will be life changing, that's for sure.
 

MickeyDangerez

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 24, 2019
Messages
577
How can you vote yes, if you don't have Internet?
exactly. When Starlink becomes available and they get it, they would be the people voting yes. That's the point I am conveying. It's obvious that the majority on the internet would say no because they are happy with what they have. Those like me who have best-effort services will jump the minute it becomes available. Starlink is the future of true global internet.
 
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