Arguments Redirected from Intro2Islam (obviating derails)

Mineer

Expert Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
3,189
#22
Ye, way to obfuscate, well done.
So is it yes to heaven or hell?
agree'd both

You are welcomed to argue further, but from a theist point of you will end up in 1 of the 2 situations. Islam just does not draw a line in the sand and say believe our way or you WILL go to hell, no if's, and's or but's. You may obtain heaven by living a good life, this is at God's discretion but if you want structure and direction in obtaining Heaven, here follow these steps found in Holy Quran.

Understandably this makes the presumption that God exists, a whole other argument

simply put Islam is a way of life that may lead you into heaven,
 

ninj.ga

Karmic Sangoma
Joined
Jan 17, 2005
Messages
44,560
#23
agree'd both

You are welcomed to argue further, but from a theist point of you will end up in 1 of the 2 situations. Islam just does not draw a line in the sand and say believe our way or you WILL go to hell, no if's, and's or but's. You may obtain heaven by living a good life, this is at God's discretion but if you want structure and direction in obtaining Heaven, here follow these steps found in Holy Quran.

Understandably this makes the presumption that God exists, a whole other argument

simply put Islam is a way of life that may lead you into heaven,
Okay, so what you are saying is you dont have to be a muslim to get into heaven. Fantastic. Then no need to be a muslim in the first place. Just be a good person.
 

dudewotevr

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2008
Messages
2,474
#24
Okay, so what you are saying is you dont have to be a muslim to get into heaven. Fantastic. Then no need to be a muslim in the first place. Just be a good person.
Yay! :D

Weird that some people need some sort of manual/guide/walkthrough to being a good person and living a good life.
 

Mineer

Expert Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2008
Messages
3,189
#25
Okay, so what you are saying is you dont have to be a muslim to get into heaven. Fantastic. Then no need to be a muslim in the first place. Just be a good person.
Yay! :D

Weird that some people need some sort of manual/guide/walkthrough to being a good person and living a good life.
beware of over simplifying

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_single_cause
http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/skepticism/blfaq_fall_oversimp.htm

Firstly you complain of obfuscation then when I try to simplify for you, you oversimplify :confused:
 
Last edited:

R/SGT

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
1,603
#26
agree'd both

You are welcomed to argue further, but from a theist point of you will end up in 1 of the 2 situations. Islam just does not draw a line in the sand and say believe our way or you WILL go to hell, no if's, and's or but's. You may obtain heaven by living a good life, this is at God's discretion but if you want structure and direction in obtaining Heaven, here follow these steps found in Holy Quran.

Understandably this makes the presumption that God exists, a whole other argument

simply put Islam is a way of life that may lead you into heaven,
BUSTED

Conditions of going to Paradise

According to the Qur'an, the basic criteria for salvation in afterlife is the belief in one God (Tawḥīd), Last Judgment, good deeds, and in all the messengers of God, as well as believing that Muhammad is the final prophet of God.


Though one must do good deeds and believe in God, salvation can only be attained through God's judgement.[6]

Conditions of going to Paradise according to the Qur'an:


Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity, or in adversity; who restrain anger, and pardon (all) men;- for Allah loves those who do good;-
And those who, having done something to be ashamed of, or wronged their own souls, earnestly bring Allah to mind, and ask for forgiveness for their sins,- and who can forgive sins except Allah?- and are never obstinate in persisting knowingly in (the wrong) they have done.
For such the reward is forgiveness from their Lord, and Gardens with rivers flowing underneath,- an eternal dwelling: How excellent a recompense for those who work (and strive)!

—Qur'an, sura 3 (Al-i-Imran), ayat 134 - 136[7]


Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: "I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my messengers, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude."

—Qur'an, sura 5 (al-Māʾidah) ayah 12[8]

As in life there are many trials which one must face. This is also a condition individuals must encounter in order to enter Jannah.


Or do ye think that ye shall enter the Garden (of bliss) without such (trials) as came to those who passed away before you? they encountered suffering and adversity, and were so shaken in spirit that even the Messenger and those of faith who were with him cried: "When (will come) the help of Allah?" Ah! Verily, the help of Allah is (always) near!

—Qur'an, sura 2 (al-Baqarah), ayah 214[9]


Did ye think that ye would enter Heaven without Allah testing those of you who fought hard (In His Cause) and remained steadfast?

—Qur'an, sura 3 (Al-i-Imran), ayah 142[10]

The Qur'an also asserts that those who reject the Prophets of God with their best knowledge are damned in afterlife[6] and if they reject in front of the Messenger of God, then they also face dreadful fate in this world and in afterlife (see Itmam al-hujjah). Conversely, a person who discovers monotheism not having been reached by a messenger is called Hanif.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_heaven#How_many_will_enter_heaven
 

moosag

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2004
Messages
1,131
#28
What you said above kinda re-affirms what was said in the previous 2 posts. You all acknowledge messengers. You believe in God. The only thing that remains is good deeds???

I don't see how you busted anything???
 

dudewotevr

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2008
Messages
2,474
#29
What you said above kinda re-affirms what was said in the previous 2 posts. You all acknowledge messengers. You believe in God. The only thing that remains is good deeds???

I don't see how you busted anything???
Well it burns down to some Muslims saying yes all non-Muslim people will in fact go to hell, and some saying I don't know, when the scripture clearly indicates our fate..*scary voice* ;)

I'm definitely going to heaven, so I'm not worried. Chat later up there! ..Well, if you guys make it. :/ I, for one, truly hope you do!
 

R/SGT

Expert Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2006
Messages
1,603
#30
What you said above kinda re-affirms what was said in the previous 2 posts. You all acknowledge messengers. You believe in God. The only thing that remains is good deeds???

I don't see how you busted anything???
Islam just does not draw a line in the sand and say believe our way or you WILL go to hell, no if's, and's or but's.

Conditions of going to Paradise

According to the Qur'an, the basic criteria for salvation in afterlife is the belief
• in one God (Tawḥīd),
• Last Judgment,
• good deeds,
• and in all the messengers of God,
• as well as believing that Muhammad is the final prophet of God.


If you dont believe in Muhammed you dont pass go, I think that qualifies as a line in the sand?
 

moosag

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2004
Messages
1,131
#31
Any Muslim who thinks like that is ignorant. Purely because the first entries to heaven will be the poor. Irrespective of race, colour, religion or whatever. Their poverty is a 1 way ticket to eternal paradise. So that theory is "Busted" :)

Okay, so what you are saying is you dont have to be a muslim to get into heaven. Fantastic. Then no need to be a muslim in the first place. Just be a good person.
If you choose not be a muslim and just be a good person than you a Muslim in the non technical sense. So for everything a muslims would do you have your own version of it... Then your a muslim... Its like going to write you bar exams but not going to university to study law and relying on your own techniques to pass the Bar. Its easier to go to university with a set syllabus and course material. But hey if you feel you can do it better on your own nothing stops you.... :)
 

moosag

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2004
Messages
1,131
#32
Islam just does not draw a line in the sand and say believe our way or you WILL go to hell, no if's, and's or but's.

Conditions of going to Paradise

According to the Qur'an, the basic criteria for salvation in afterlife is the belief
• in one God (Tawḥīd),
• Last Judgment,
• good deeds,
• and in all the messengers of God,
• as well as believing that Muhammad is the final prophet of God.


If you dont believe in Muhammed you dont pass go, I think that qualifies as a line in the sand?
Right ok...??? So you saying you dont believe in Prophet Muhammad being the last messenger??
Its not very difficult to see that there has not been any more prophets since Muhammad???

What you wrote above can be achieved by any person. Be he a Jew, Christian, Aethiest, etc... Its not rocket science...
 

ninj.ga

Karmic Sangoma
Joined
Jan 17, 2005
Messages
44,560
#33
Right ok...??? So you saying you dont believe in Prophet Muhammad being the last messenger??
Its not very difficult to see that there has not been any more prophets since Muhammad???

What you wrote above can be achieved by any person. Be he a Jew, Christian, Aethiest, etc... Its not rocket science...
I dont believe in prophets. End of story. Atheism is a non-prophet organization.
 

CaTcH21

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 7, 2005
Messages
2,808
#34
Any Muslim who thinks like that is ignorant. Purely because the first entries to heaven will be the poor. Irrespective of race, colour, religion or whatever. Their poverty is a 1 way ticket to eternal paradise. So that theory is "Busted" :)



If you choose not be a muslim and just be a good person than you a Muslim in the non technical sense. So for everything a muslims would do you have your own version of it... Then your a muslim... Its like going to write you bar exams but not going to university to study law and relying on your own techniques to pass the Bar. Its easier to go to university with a set syllabus and course material. But hey if you feel you can do it better on your own nothing stops you.... :)
Can you please provide your Source(s) to backup your claims.
 

dudewotevr

Expert Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2008
Messages
2,474
#35
Right ok...??? So you saying you dont believe in Prophet Muhammad being the last messenger??
Its not very difficult to see that there has not been any more prophets since Muhammad???

What you wrote above can be achieved by any person. Be he a Jew, Christian, Aethiest, etc... Its not rocket science...
It's true what you say, I'm an atheist and I'm going to paradise, so to all you other heaven-hopefuls, chin up, the chips may be down but you're still in the game!

Yep, I'm one of them non-muslim Muslims. Proof that you're correct!
 
Joined
Aug 24, 2009
Messages
1,187
#37
How did Muhammad qualify as a prophet if I may ask? I am a Christian and not at all an expert on him and why is it said that he is the last prophet?
 
Last edited:

Lucas Buck

Expert Member
Joined
Jun 20, 2005
Messages
3,353
#40
If you choose not be a muslim and just be a good person than you a Muslim in the non technical sense. So for everything a muslims would do you have your own version of it... Then your a muslim... Its like going to write you bar exams but not going to university to study law and relying on your own techniques to pass the Bar. Its easier to go to university with a set syllabus and course material. But hey if you feel you can do it better on your own nothing stops you.... :)
Would this also be the same for muslim who has converted to christianity?
 
Last edited:
Top