Arguments Redirected from Intro2Islam (obviating derails)

wayfarer

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Dear wayfarer, that's rather condescending and insulting. I take it you would include me in your latter description?
I would never be so presumptuous as to claim to be able to read the hearts of people. What do you think? Does the shoe fit?
 

Splinter

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I would never be so presumptuous as to claim to be able to read the hearts of people. What do you think? Does the shoe fit?
Could I be so presumptuous as to ask you to bring your original quotes into the thread? Just to give context. So the shoe can fit, so to speak.
 

wayfarer

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Thank you for your contribution. You have added much to the discussion. I come to PD to read the pearls of wisdom in your thought-provoking posts.

@wayfarer
So, what is the islamic position on interacting with "trolls"? Obviously there were no cyber trolls hundreds of years ago, but I imagine there were those who trolled... ehh.. physically (as opposed to virtually... agh, I'm sure you know what I mean). I have observed that imranpanji tends to feed it, while you appear to... starve it. So what does your religion
Your question demonstrates insight, Sodan.

Indeed, Prophet Muhammad had to endure trolls. Quran exegetes explain that a gentle calling of the disbeliever to the Truth is the Quranic injunction, but that those who are excessively stubborn and willfully ignorant deserve a different approach. Two extracts from the Quran immediately come to mind:

1. "Say, “O disbelievers! I worship not what you worship; nor are you worshippers of what I worship; nor am I a worshipper of what you worship; nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Unto you your way, and unto me my way.” (Quran 109:1-6)

The utility of repetition in this chapter has been variously explained to be:

a) For emphasis. Trolls have a tendency to miss what is said to them, or to dismiss, without due consideration, anything that is unpalatable to them.
b) It anticipates that the troll will come back with the same "hot air", and therefore pre-emptively posits the same firm declaration.
c) The first statement refers to the present, whereas the repeat refers to the future. The understanding is that further attempts at deliverance are futile. The troll is expected to be as dog-headed in future as in the present.

The final verse instructs the Believer to desist from further appealing to the disbelieving troll's common sense or rational faculty, as the troll does not appear to have the desire to use them.

2. In Quran 68:44-45, God instructs the Believers to leave the trolls to Him. Their souls will certainly catch up with what they sent ahead.
 

Splinter

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Your question demonstrates insight, Sodan.

Indeed, Prophet Muhammad had to endure trolls. Quran exegetes explain that a gentle calling of the disbeliever to the Truth is the Quranic injunction, but that those who are excessively stubborn and willfully ignorant deserve a different approach. Two extracts from the Quran immediately come to mind:
Quite funny the timing - and the words you used. What I just posted elsewhere:

"Those who do not believe in Islam can be classified into two groups:

1. Those who are termed ‘Jahil-e-Muqassir’ (lit. ‘culpable ignorant’). These are non-believers to whom the message of Islam has reached and who have understood its truthfulness. However, they are not prepared to accept the truth due to their obstinacy and stubbornness. This group deserves to be punished in Hell."

Seems you are quite selective in what you post.
 

Splinter

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Your question demonstrates insight, Sodan.

Indeed, Prophet Muhammad had to endure trolls. Quran exegetes explain that a gentle calling of the disbeliever to the Truth is the Quranic injunction, but that those who are excessively stubborn and willfully ignorant deserve a different approach. Two extracts from the Quran immediately come to mind:

1. "Say, “O disbelievers! I worship not what you worship; nor are you worshippers of what I worship; nor am I a worshipper of what you worship; nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Unto you your way, and unto me my way.” (Quran 109:1-6)

The utility of repetition in this chapter has been variously explained to be:

a) For emphasis. Trolls have a tendency to miss what is said to them, or to dismiss, without due consideration, anything that is unpalatable to them.
b) It anticipates that the troll will come back with the same "hot air", and therefore pre-emptively posits the same firm declaration.
c) The first statement refers to the present, whereas the repeat refers to the future. The understanding is that further attempts at deliverance are futile. The troll is expected to be as dog-headed in future as in the present.

The final verse instructs the Believer to desist from further appealing to the disbelieving troll's common sense or rational faculty, as the troll does not appear to have the desire to use them.

2. In Quran 68:44-45, God instructs the Believers to leave the trolls to Him. Their souls will certainly catch up with what they sent ahead.
And thank you. You don't seem to realise it, but you have just proven what I, and many others, have been saying about religion all along. You have just taken text from scriptures, and adapted them to prove a point that you, as a human being, are trying to make.

You have taken your anger towards me, and turned, or represented, words from your holy text into what you want to believe.
 

Mineer

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And thank you. You don't seem to realise it, but you have just proven what I, and many others, have been saying about religion all along. You have just taken text from scriptures, and adapted them to prove a point that you, as a human being, are trying to make.

You have taken your anger towards me, and turned, or represented, words from your holy text into what you want to believe.
Many others? Could you point them out. Or is this poetic licencing again?
 

Sodan

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Your question demonstrates insight, Sodan.

Indeed, Prophet Muhammad had to endure trolls. Quran exegetes explain that a gentle calling of the disbeliever to the Truth is the Quranic injunction, but that those who are excessively stubborn and willfully ignorant deserve a different approach. Two extracts from the Quran immediately come to mind:

1. "Say, “O disbelievers! I worship not what you worship; nor are you worshippers of what I worship; nor am I a worshipper of what you worship; nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Unto you your way, and unto me my way.” (Quran 109:1-6)

The utility of repetition in this chapter has been variously explained to be:

a) For emphasis. Trolls have a tendency to miss what is said to them, or to dismiss, without due consideration, anything that is unpalatable to them.
b) It anticipates that the troll will come back with the same "hot air", and therefore pre-emptively posits the same firm declaration.
c) The first statement refers to the present, whereas the repeat refers to the future. The understanding is that further attempts at deliverance are futile. The troll is expected to be as dog-headed in future as in the present.

The final verse instructs the Believer to desist from further appealing to the disbelieving troll's common sense or rational faculty, as the troll does not appear to have the desire to use them.

2. In Quran 68:44-45, God instructs the Believers to leave the trolls to Him. Their souls will certainly catch up with what they sent ahead.
Thanks @wayfarer, that seems perfectly logical and reasonable. In fact, I think I'll adopt that recommendation myself!



Quite funny the timing - and the words you used. What I just posted elsewhere:

"Those who do not believe in Islam can be classified into two groups:

1. Those who are termed ‘Jahil-e-Muqassir’ (lit. ‘culpable ignorant’). These are non-believers to whom the message of Islam has reached and who have understood its truthfulness. However, they are not prepared to accept the truth due to their obstinacy and stubbornness. This group deserves to be punished in Hell."

Seems you are quite selective in what you post.
To you your way, and to wayfarer his way. ;)
 

Zolani99

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Your question demonstrates insight, Sodan.

Indeed, Prophet Muhammad had to endure trolls. Quran exegetes explain that a gentle calling of the disbeliever to the Truth is the Quranic injunction, but that those who are excessively stubborn and willfully ignorant deserve a different approach. Two extracts from the Quran immediately come to mind:

1. "Say, “O disbelievers! I worship not what you worship; nor are you worshippers of what I worship; nor am I a worshipper of what you worship; nor are you worshippers of what I worship. Unto you your way, and unto me my way.” (Quran 109:1-6)

The utility of repetition in this chapter has been variously explained to be:

a) For emphasis. Trolls have a tendency to miss what is said to them, or to dismiss, without due consideration, anything that is unpalatable to them.
b) It anticipates that the troll will come back with the same "hot air", and therefore pre-emptively posits the same firm declaration.
c) The first statement refers to the present, whereas the repeat refers to the future. The understanding is that further attempts at deliverance are futile. The troll is expected to be as dog-headed in future as in the present.

The final verse instructs the Believer to desist from further appealing to the disbelieving troll's common sense or rational faculty, as the troll does not appear to have the desire to use them.

2. In Quran 68:44-45, God instructs the Believers to leave the trolls to Him. Their souls will certainly catch up with what they sent ahead.
What a deep and insightful reply. It's uncanny how a verse revealed 1438 years ago is still so pertinent in this day and age. So, there you have it, all you trolls
 

isie

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And thank you. You don't seem to realise it, but you have just proven what I, and many others, have been saying about religion all along. You have just taken text from scriptures, and adapted them to prove a point that you, as a human being, are trying to make.

You have taken your anger towards me, and turned, or represented, words from your holy text into what you want to believe.


Why are you taking his responses Personally - He talked about Trolls.
So you Admit it that you are trolling?


/Awaits Tantrum
 

Splinter

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Still waiting for your answer where you claim he directed his anger towards you or mentioned you in his reply to Sodans question
Getting sarky are we? :). So you can ask me if I'm a troll, but I cannot ask you the same? Nice double standard there.

And it's there in the post where he corrupts text to now cover trolls - doubt it was joy and happiness that led him to do so..
 

isie

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Getting sarky are we? :). So you can ask me if I'm a troll, but I cannot ask you the same? Nice double standard there.

And it's there in the post where he corrupts text to now cover trolls - doubt it was joy and happiness that led him to do so..
He answered Sondans question, paraphrasing Sodan there were no trolls at that time what would be similar and he answered what would be similar - again still never referred to you.
as usual Splinter thinks it's all about him
If the shoe fits
 

Xarog

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He answered Sondans question, paraphrasing Sodan there were no trolls at that time what would be similar and he answered what would be similar - again still never referred to you.
as usual Splinter thinks it's all about him
If the shoe fits
I really liked the part where Wayfarer asked Splinter what kind of disbeliever he was, and he took it to be a question about his judgement of Wayfarer instead.

His non-answer was the perfect answer. If the shoe fits...
 

Splinter

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He answered Sondans question, paraphrasing Sodan there were no trolls at that time what would be similar and he answered what would be similar - again still never referred to you.
as usual Splinter thinks it's all about him
If the shoe fits
And I thought one was not allowed to alter or paraphrase the word of god? So you are allowed to do so?

Also, I think he didn't ask for a paraphrasing, he asked what happened back then to people who, uh, questioned things.

By the way, I do need to do some more research on what wayfarer said. he seems very selective in his replies and seems to avoid the more nasty consequences of Islam.

This thought popped into my head after reading today about a governor in Jakarta going on trial for blasphemy (5 year sentence possible). Free will my ass.
 

isie

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And I thought one was not allowed to alter or paraphrase the word of god? So you are allowed to do so?

Also, I think he didn't ask for a paraphrasing, he asked what happened back then to people who, uh, questioned things.


By the way, I do need to do some more research on what wayfarer said. he seems very selective in his replies and seems to avoid the more nasty consequences of Islam.

This thought popped into my head after reading today about a governor in Jakarta going on trial for blasphemy (5 year sentence possible). Free will my ass.
Sodan used troll and inferred it was you - Wayfarer neither Agreed nor disagreed with Sodans inference.


Sodans question was about Trolls he looked for a similar issues in the past while not a troll as we have today would be those in the past who were wilfully ignorant.He isn't changing or altering the quraan or Hadeeth. He is using similar situations or passages to assist in answering a question.

of course you might be wilfully ignorant to this fact or you may not.
 

Splinter

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Sodan used troll and inferred it was you- Wayfarer neither Agreed nor disagreed with Sodans inference.


Sodans question was about Trolls he looked for a similar issues in the past while not a troll as we have today would be those in the past who were wilfully ignorant.He isn't changing or altering the quraan or Hadeeth. He is using similar situations or passages to assist in answering a question.

of course you might be wilfully ignorant to this fact or you may not.
You have one interpretation of what Sodan asked, I have another:

"So, what is the islamic position on interacting with "trolls"? Obviously there were no cyber trolls hundreds of years ago, but I imagine there were those who trolled... ehh.. physically (as opposed to virtually... agh, I'm sure you know what I mean). I have observed that imranpanji tends to feed it, while you appear to... starve it. So what does your religion"[/B]

He asked what the Quran said about "physical" "trolls" back then. Not a paraphrasing. I see it as wayfarer manipulating the meaning of things to cover "trolls" today. You and he may disagree of course. Allah will be the ultimate judge though ;)

Also, were you not challenging me earlier about where did wayfarer make reference to me with his reply as to troll question? By your own post, it was inferred that it was about me....
 
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