Arguments Redirected from Intro2Islam (obviating derails)

moosag

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I generally pray to give thanks, not to ask for anything and as for guidance, I have yet to be guided in the wrong direction and have never had the slightest hint that I should look at converting

Thank you for your concern though.

Talking about your prayers, is it true that some Muslims rub the spot on their forehead that touches the carpet with sandpaper in order to get the whole pious look
Thats cool man... :) As long as we can be civil and respectful to each other its all good :) In today's day and age there's an over supply of everything. Over and above all religions, classes and races the most important thing is that we are mutually respectful to each other. Just because we all have differences does not mean we cant be respectful to one another :) (I am not saying u are... Just speaking generally)

As for the forehead mark... We refer to it as the "Namaz Mark"... Most of the people I know who have them is due to their prayers causing the mark on their forehead (wear and tear :p). As for people who intentionally set out doing it I have no clue... It's possible because I've heard of people do far stranger things... lol
 

unskinnybob

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Sadly, it seems that that pretty much represents the sum (and not summary) of your "knowledge" of religion.
Ashamed to say I was a devout bible bashing Christian for many a year, so scratch that thought.


No, not simply "lost in translation". An orientalist parody is made of the Quran, then that wall-of-text parody is presented here by some as the actual message of the Quran, and you want me to make corrections (or a correction)?
You could pick ONE incorrect translation or out of context phrase and provide a "mainstream" view.
 

moosag

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@UnskinnyBob

Qur’an 2:191 “...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them”
I am going to give you the full context of verse pre and post 191. The full English Transliteration of the verse including its commentry from Mariful Quran Volume 1 pages 477-485 of which you will see that you cannot just randomly "quote" specific verses because the total meaning is lost and more importantly you take it out of context.

Lets Start

Verse 189 - 191

They ask you about the new moons. say: They are indicative
of time for the people, and of the Hajj. And it
is not righteousness that you come into your houses
from their backs but righteousness is that one fears Allah.
And come to the houses through their doors. And
fear Allah so that you may be successful. And fight in
the way of Allah against those who fight you and do not
transgress. Verily, Allah does not like the transgressors.
And kill them wherever you find them and drive
them out from where they drove you out, and Fitnah (to
create disorder) is more severe than to kill. And do not
fight them near Al-Masjid al-Harim unless they fight
you there. However, if they fight you (there) you may
kill them. Such is the reward of the disbelievers.
(Verses 189 - 191)
Intro to Commentary
The theme of righteousness which started from Verse 177 still
continues. The six injunctions that have appeared so far relate to even
retaliation, bequest, fasting, I'tikif and abstention from the unlawful.
Now come those of Hajj and Jihad prior to which it was clarified that
lunar months and days will be followed in Hajj and in other religious
obligations. Also erased here is a custom of jahiliyyah (days of
ignorance) which required people in Ihriim to go into their houses, if
needed, from the back even if it had to be through a hole in the wall
bored for this purpose, as they thought it was prohibited to enter
houses from the front door when in IhrZm. They even rated it as
'righteousness'. So, it is immediately after the mention of Hajj that
Allah Almighty tells them that entering the houses from the backs is
no righteousness. Real righteousness lies in abstaining from what has
been made unlawful by Allah. Since coming into houses through their
doors is not forbidden, the question of abstaining from it does not
arise. So, those who wish to go into their houses should enter through
their doors, but the center-piece of all principles is that people must
keep fearing Allah so that they can hope to have the best of both the
worlds.
Verse 190-191 carry the injunction relating to fighting with
disbelievers. It was the*month of Dhul-Qa'dah in the year 6 AH. that
the Holy Prophet & began his journey to the sacred city of Makkah in
order to perform 'Umrah. Makkah was still controlled by the
rnushrikin (the infidels). They did not allow him and his Companions
to go into the city and 'Umrah could not be performed as intended. It
took a great deal of negotiating to arrive at the agreement that the
Muslims would perform 'Umrah next year. This pact is known as the
'Peace of Hudaybiyyah'; a detailed explanation of the verse in this
context will appear later.
The preceeding commentary covers 3 points of which I am only going to paste the 3rd point on the "Jihad" or the piece you mention above.
1) The Questions asked by the Companions relating to the Lunar calendar.
2) The issues dealing with pagan Arabs who use to consider breaking a hole in the back of their houses and entering from the back considered by them to be righteous. The ruling is about making things lawful and when they unlawful and then make what is lawful -> unlawful which in turn is a sin to make something that is ok not ok ??? if you catch my drift... You can download the entire volume and read it yourself. Pages 477-485
3) Is the first verse sent down that gives conditions to allow Muslims to defend themselves and kill transgressors in self defence. You can read below its quite lengthy.
 

moosag

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Jihad: To fight in the way of Allah
That Jihad and Qital or fighting against disbelievers was
prohibited prior to the emigration to adi in ah is a fact the entire
Muslim community agrees upon. All verses revealed during that time
advised Muslims to be patient against pains inflicted on them by
disbelievers, even to ignore and forgive when they can. It was after the
emigration to ad in ah that the first command to fight against
them came through this verse (as said by al-~ab?ib n Anas and
others). Another narration from Sayyidn5 Abii Bakr al-Siddiq i~ JI +
says that the first verse relating to this subject is:
"Leave is' given to those who are fought against because they were
wronged", but according to a majority of the blessed Companions and
their successors, the first verse commanding to fight the disbelievers is
this very verse from Siirah al-Baqarah while the verse which has been
identified as the first verse on this subject by Sayyidnii AbG Bakr
al-siddiq, that too, being among the very initial verses revealed, could
be called the first.
The command in this verse is that Muslims should fight only those
disbelievers who come to fight against them. It means that there are
other people too who do not take part in fighting, such as, the women,
the children, the very old, the priests and monks and others devoting
themselves to quiet religious pursuits, and the physically handicapped,
and those casual labourers who work for disbelievers and do
not go to fight along with them; it is not permissible to kill such people
in a Jihad. The reason is that the command in the verse is restricted
to fighting those who come to fight Muslims. The kind of people mentioned
above are not all fighters. That is why Muslim Jurists dl ,
have also ruled that should a woman, an old man or. religious person
take part in actual fighting along with disbelievers or be helping them
in any manner in their fight against the Muslims, then, killing them is
permissible because they come under the purview of those
who fight YOU('.~ azha;, Qurtubiand JassZs)
The battle orders of the Holy Prophet j& given to the mujahidTn of
'Cslam at the time of JihZd carry a good explanation of this injunction.
'n a hadith from al-~ukharain d Muslim, as narrated by the blessed
:eek:mpanion 'Abdullah ibn 'Umar, it is said:

'The Holy Prophet & has prohibited the killing of women and children.'
The following instructions from the Holy Prophet & given to the
Jompanions going on Jihad have been narrated in a hadith from
3ayyidnZi Anas which appears in Abii DZwGd: 'Go for Jihad in the
,lame of Allah adhering to the community of the Messenger of Allah.
90 not kill anyone old and weak, any young child or any woman.'
')
When Sayyidna Abii Bakr al-~iddkse nt ~azidib n ~bSuifyZ n to
Syria, he gave him the same instructions. Also added there is the
xohibition of killing the religiously-devoted, the monks and priests,
and the labourers employed by disbelievers, specially when they do not
take part in fighting (~urpbi).
The expression ha- and do not transgress) towards the end of
the verse, according to the majority of the commentators means - 'do
not go beyond the limit in fighting as to start killing women and
children'.
As already explained briefly in the opening remarks, the verse 191,
that is, ,)
(And kill them:wherever you
find them and drive them out from where they drove you out...), was
revealed after the happening at Hudaybiyyah at a time when tbe Holy
Prophet & decided, in accordance with the condition agreed upon in
the Peace Treaty of Hudaybiyyah, to embark on a journey to Makkah
to perform the qadi' of 'Umrah along with his Companions, something
he was stopped from doing a year before by the disbelievers of
Makkah. The noble Companions, on the eve of this projected journey,
had started to worry about the disbelievers who could not be trusted
upon in a peace treaty. If they chose to be aggressive, as they did a
year before, what option are they going to take? Thereupon, the words
used in the present verse gave them the permission to meet the
challenge of their aggression and kill them where they find them. And
if they could, it was permissible for them to drive the disbelievers out
from where they had driven the believers out.
Since Muslims, during their entire Makkan period, were made to
stay away from fighting against the disbelievers and were repeatedly
asked to forego and forgive, so much so, that the noble Companions
were, before the revelation of this verse, under the impression that
killing disbelievers was bad, and proQbited. It was to remove this
misconception that it was said: "And Fitnah is more
severe than to kill," that is, it is true that to kill someone is a terribly
evil act, but more terrible and severe is what the disbelievers of
Makkah have done by insisting on their kufr and shirk (infidelity and
the associating of others with Allah) and by stopping Muslims from
fulfillling their religious obligations, and from performing Hajj and
'Umrah. It is to avoid this greater evil that killing them has been
permitted. The word, Fitnah in the verse (not translated for want of a
perfect equivalent in English) inescapably means kufr and shirk and to
prevent Muslims from fulfilling their religious obligations of 'ibtidah.

Since the generality of the words 'kill them wherever you find
them' might lead to the misconception that killing the disbelievers is
allowed even in the precincts of Haram, this generality has been
particularized in the next sentence of the verse by saying:
And do not fight them near Al-Masjid al-Haram unless they
fight you there.
That is, 'you should not fight them close to AL-Masjid aL-Haram,
which includes all its environs in Makkah, unless they themselves
start fighting you there.'
Rulings
1. In the Haram (the sacred precincts) of Makkah, it is just not
permissible to kill even a bird or animal, let alone the human beings.
However, this same verse tells us that in the event someone starts
killing somebody else within the sacred precincts, then, that other
person is permitted to fight back in defence. There is a consensus of
the jurists on thls point.
2. It also comes out from this verse that the prohibition of
initiating Jihad or is restricted to Al-Masjid al-Haram and its
environs to which the sacred precincts extend in Makkah. At other
places, just as the defensive Jihgd is necessary, the initiating of Jihad
and QitEl is also valid.
The above is the full commentary for Verse 191 with the exception of a few things I omitted because they don't deal with the Jihad specifically.

As you yourself said. You put zero thought into the quotes you mention and just pulled them out as they jump at you. As you can see with further analysis and careful thought that it is not as simple as reading a transliteration and deciding from there.
Every Quranic verse carries with it a context based on the happening in a period of time of the Prophet Muhammad and the trials and tribulations he faced at that specific time of which he received direct revelation and guidance specific to that issue at that time.

If you read the introduction chapter to Mariful Volume 1 before it starts with Chapter/Surah 1 of the Quran being Surah Al-Fatiha you will gain insight as to:
1) How the Quran is compiled and its history of Complication
2) The differences between the Mekan and Medinah versers (Verses revealed while Muhammad was in Makkah and Medinah respectively)
3) Many others facts that I can't recall now.

The above has taken me roughly an hour to dig my documents, put together a post in relation to your Mis-Quote.
Now imagine how long it would take me to do that for everyone of your Misquotes ???

This book the Quraan is not ordinary book. If you just take it at face value than you miss the boat, the harbor and all associated points regarding its origin and purpose. But if you actually as a Muslim or a Non-Muslim spend time trying to understand it you will soon realize that it is by no means an easy task and requires time, patience and most importantly a clean intention.

Hence we go back to the original point that Muhammad albeit no man to date has been able to produce such a piece of work on their own since it was revealed, which has to lend to the fact that this Book the Quran is not of this dimension and not created by Mankind.
 

moosag

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PS: Forgive me for the bad spelling. it's copied and pasted from a scanned PDF document. Hence all the horrible spelling mistakes.
 

wayfarer

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PS: Forgive me for the bad spelling. it's copied and pasted from a scanned PDF document. Hence all the horrible spelling mistakes.
Lol are you serious???

Just go here: Ma'ariful Qur'an - Shafi Usmani RA.

Or to go directly relevant ayat (verses), see Usmani's exegesis of 2:189-191 and 2:192-195.

While the translation of Ma'ariful Qur'an contains many Arabic terms (as with the original Urdu book), it is still one of the most comprehensive English exegetical works available. The translator probably assumed that there would be a mainly Muslim readership and therefore expected that there would be basic literacy of common Arabic words. Check it out online, layout and readability is quite good...
 

moosag

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Maaf bro... I also have a job :) Thanks for that link. Never knew it was available online like that.
 

falcon786

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Maaf bro... I also have a job :) Thanks for that link. Never knew it was available online like that.
Thats the scary part about online,hard to know what to trust online,many fake sites,hate sites etc out there.....
But thanks for pointing that one out Wayfarer.
 

falcon786

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Anyway, sorry for the diversion. Back on topic:

So it appears then that these extremists have effectively hijacked your religion, drawing on the oil-wealth, and supported by western powers, to maintain their position.
Ok whatever I say here is just my understanding of it and is hardly the mainstream view,I'm sure wayfarer can give a better insight into what the mainstreams view on this is.

Yes you are correct although they have not hijacked the religion at all just maybe a key location for it but so far the consequences thereof have not been bad for us to freely practice mainstream Islam.Islam however is not a place, its a way of life and comes mainly from the heart.
I'm not sure if this is the right thread to ask these questions, but here goes:
1. Besides easy and cheap access to oil, is there anything else the west gains from this relationship?
Apparently lots of investment into its economy,there are many reports that the bulk of saudi wealth sits in the USA.Also USA military bases in the area prove important to strategy especially during wars etc.

2. There is estimated to be less than 50 years of oil left that can be mined. What do you think will happen when the middle-east runs out of oil (currently their major claim to wealth).
Who knows really,dubai and those states seem to be reliant on tourism and trade to keep their economies afloat and poorer nations like yemen etc will probably suffer more than currently.As for the saudi's I think they have plenty money invested elsewhere and also they should get quite a bit of tourism income due to the holy cities.Ive heard that there are other natural resources that saudi has that has not yet been exploited also.

3. What efforts are being made by the mainstream muslims to combat the effect that the extremists are having on the image of Islam?
I cannot speak for the entire muslim world but in my side of things I have heard of Imaams calling for anti-radical ways to protest and Islamic radio stations calling on people to not always take matters into their own hands.

To give you an example when recently a young muslim boy from Magaliesburg was murdered in ventersdorp due to having a beard and being called a bin laden etc there were many calls for protests ont hat sunday, however the radio stations and mosques immediately condemned calls for those as the authorities were clearly intent on seeing justice being done and were investigating the case thoroughly and protests were not the way forward and would probably hamper proper investigations.

4. I gather Mecca is the holiest place on earth for you, and it is being controlled by the wahabis. Should this not be of major concern to the mainstream muslims? What is being done about this?
In my opinion the people of saudi themselves are the worse affected by this,when I went there in 1999 the ordinary man on the street is terrified of the guards/police.The saudi regime is probably the worst dictatorship in existence today but the media is quiet about it because of the sauds close ties with the USA.

Fortunately they do not block most legitimate Islamic practices so they do not hamper mainstream Islams beliefs too much directly and they maintain the holy sites very well,hence mainstream Islam leaves them be.The people of Saudi however are being repressed considerably.
 
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falcon786

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That was just a quick reply as I was leaving the office so I didn’t put much thought into it, but I wasn’t blaming religion alone, although unfortunately religious belief does play a major role in these acts. Good article but I have also read some others to get more perspective
Perspective is one thing, however good solid research is always more valuable than perspective and this article is based on some proper research.




If you read further down



The problem with your statement on brainwashing, is that unfortunately almost all suicide bombing that occur today are committed by Muslims. Therefore Islam would be seen to be the common denominator behind all the attacks and it doesn’t help when you have militants and clerics using Islam to justify the attacks, as per this
Considering that a large portion of the worlds population is Muslim its not unlikely to assume that it may just be coincidence that many of the people suffering just so happen to be Muslim.Take Palestine as a prime example,did Islam or their religion have anything to to with them being occupied?There are many Christians also in Palestine that have been occupied although their numbers are much less they too fight for their rights so its a war of the people not of the religion.

The only part Islam may have played is in seeking justice,Islam as a religion allows a person to seek justice.Now the people in these areas don't have the tanks and weapons of the Israelis to seek justice with hence DESPERATION leads them to use their own bodies.Its is not an act of choice and is not preached to people in these areas they do it out of desperation for justice and freedom from expression.

Did you ever hear the expression "I'd rather die?"....well for these people they really mean it,so bad is the conditions they live in.Me and you cannot understand that because we are not living in those conditions,its always easy to judge from the outside isnt it?


But there are many Scholars and clerics who have spoken out against sucide bombers
The Prophet had never told anybody to ever commit suicide.yes he encouraged us to fight when needed and not fear death while fighting because you will die a martyr.Hence most clerics do not agree with suicide bombings,however those that do, take into account the desperation of the people involved and the greater good that they are fighting for.

Ever watched a movie where the hero sacrifices himself to save the others?I bet you perceived that as heroic but when it happens in reality maybe you don't have the full facts and music to romanticize it so you don't think the person is a hero...but to the people being oppressed i can understand why he is seen as a hero.


Why if such respected persons as above forbid it, do these type of attacks continue?

If as you say, people commit these kinds of things more out of desperation or political reasons rather than religious, why do we not see people of other religions or even atheists using this method.

I wasn’t able to find any Christian suicide bombers and only found one Jewish one Israel Rabinowitz and he failed in his attempt to blow up the US House of Representatives
DESPERATION.

The Japs did it too buddy and they were not even that desperate.As for you questions why it is used by these people suffering without weapons well maybe it just caught on like a new piece of tech maybe they feel its effective but it certainly has nothing to do with Islamic teachings,its all about desperation.

All these people have no other methods to fight,where must they get tanks etc from???Suicide bombing is apparently what they have available to them.To a desperate person life doesn't have that much value living under harsh conditions and they are probably looking forward to a better afterlife compare to us who hang on to life because we are living in comfort and are not sure what to expect the day we die.
 
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falcon786

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So for interest sake, who else resorts to suicide bombings? The article you link yourself makes it clear that the IRA don't subscribe.
By not subscribe you mean they basically force a suicide bomber (proxy bomb) yes then thats true.However....

Lebanon saw the first bombing, but it was the Tamil Tigers who perfected the tactic and inspired its use elsewhere. Their Black Tiger unit have committed between 76 and 168 (estimates vary) suicide bombings since 1987, using more than 240 attackers. Their victims included former Indian Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi (assassinated by Thenmuli Rajaratnam), many prominent Lankan leaders (among them the late PM Ranasinghe Premadasa), Colombo's Central Bank, and even warships.
Source which also points out original suicide bombings by the crusaders and a Russian etc etc....its really not a religious thing AT ALL. Please read the links I supplied earlier and you will get a proper understanding of this fact that suicide bombings have not much to do with religion but more to do with political situation and desperation etc etc
 

Geriatrix

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Just to focus the discussion here a bit, maybe consider the suicide bombings with regards to innocent civilian targets and military targets.
 

falcon786

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Just to focus the discussion here a bit, maybe consider the suicide bombings with regards to innocent civilian targets and military targets.
Theres no compromise there IMO.Killing innocent civilians by whatever means is a major sin and you will answer severely for it the day you die.

Non combatants should never be included in any struggle or war.The Prophet of Islam was clear about this.
 

R/SGT

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falcon786;8988569]Perspective is one thing, however good solid research is always more valuable than perspective and this article is based on some proper research.
That doesn’t make it perfect as a researchers biases will often come through in their paper, so it is a good idea to use multiple sources rather than one


Considering that a large portion of the worlds population is Muslim its not unlikely to assume that it may just be coincidence that many of the people suffering just so happen to be Muslim.Take Palestine as a prime example,did Islam or their religion have anything to to with them being occupied?There are many Christians also in Palestine that have been occupied although their numbers are much less they too fight for their rights so its a war of the people not of the religion.
So it’s just a coincidence that most suicide bombers are Muslim?

Do these Christians Palestine commit suicide attacks?

The only part Islam may have played is in seeking justice,Islam as a religion allows a person to seek justice.Now the people in these areas don't have the tanks and weapons of the Israelis to seek justice with hence DESPERATION leads them to use their own bodies.Its is not an act of choice and is not preached to people in these areas they do it out of desperation for justice and freedom from expression.
They don’t have the tanks, jets and helicopters of the Israeli army but they have plenty of rockets that constantly been indiscriminately been fired into Israel.

If they used their bodies as weapons then why do most attacks take place against unarmed civilians rather than military targets, is this justice?

Did you ever hear the expression "I'd rather die?"....well for these people they really mean it,so bad is the
conditions they live in.Me and you cannot understand that because we are not living in those conditions,its always easy to judge from the outside isnt it?
Many people off all religions have uttered those word but only Muslims have responded by strapping bombs to themselves.


The Prophet had never told anybody to ever commit suicide.yes he encouraged us to fight when needed and not fear death while fighting because you will die a martyr.Hence most clerics do not agree with suicide bombings,however those that do, take into account the desperation of the people involved and the greater good that they are fighting for.
So blowing yourself and innocent civilians is the greater good

Ever watched a movie where the hero sacrifices himself to save the others?I bet you perceived that as heroic but when it happens in reality maybe you don't have the full facts and music to romanticize it so you don't think the person is a hero...but to the people being oppressed i can understand why he is seen as a hero.
Not a good comparison as again how does blowing up innocent civilians make you a hero, in 9/11 most of the Islamic world hailed the hijackers as heroes, yet the only heroes were the emergency service workers and others who gave their lives to rescue and save as many people as possible
DESPERATION.

The Japs did it too buddy and they were not even that desperate.
With them it was part of their culture

In 1944–45, the Japanese were heavily influenced by Shinto beliefs. Among other things, Emperor worship was stressed after Shinto was established as a state religion during the Meiji Restoration. As time went on, Shinto was used increasingly in the promotion of nationalist sentiment. In 1890, the Imperial Rescript on Education was passed, under which students were required to ritually recite its oath to offer themselves "courageously to the State" as well as protect the Imperial family. The ultimate offering was to give up one’s life. It was an honour to die for Japan and the Emperor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamikaze#Cultural_background
As for you questions why it is used by these people suffering without weapons well maybe it just caught on like a new piece of tech maybe they feel its effective but it certainly has nothing to do with Islamic teachings,its all about desperation.
Poor man’s cruise missile, which is used as a weapon of terror rather that weapon to take out strategic targets

All these people have no other methods to fight,where must they get tanks etc from???Suicide bombing is apparently what they have available to them.To a desperate person life doesn't have that much value living under harsh conditions and they are probably looking forward to a better afterlife compare to us who hang on to life because we are living in comfort and are not sure what to expect the day we die.
You keep trying to shift the focus off Islam’s role in suicide bombings, yet the fact remains 99% of all suicide bombers today are Muslims

better afterlife = religious motivation

If we use your logic then the ANC should have also used suicide bombers
 
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Geriatrix

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Theres no compromise there IMO.Killing innocent civilians by whatever means is a major sin and you will answer severely for it the day you die.

Non combatants should never be included in any struggle or war.The Prophet of Islam was clear about this.
For those interested;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_military_jurisprudence

I think more followers of Islam should read this. They seem not to know anything about their own religion and it's rules.

Must say, between all you guys(and those disputing Islam) I'm learning quite a lot about the religion here.
 

R/SGT

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Theres no compromise there IMO.Killing innocent civilians by whatever means is a major sin and you will answer severely for it the day you die.

Non combatants should never be included in any struggle or war.The Prophet of Islam was clear about this.
So why do so many attacks take place against non combatants
 

falcon786

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For those interested;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_military_jurisprudence

I think more followers of Islam should read this. They seem not to know anything about their own religion and it's rules.
They? As far as I know the majority of the mainstream already know these things.The muslims I know definitely know these things.

Must say, between all you guys(and those disputing Islam) I'm learning quite a lot about the religion here.
Thats great,how have you found what you know now differs to what you thought about islam before?
 

falcon786

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So why do so many attacks take place against non combatants
Do they?If indeed attacks have taken place against non combatants then I really don't know why they do this.My best guess is desperation has clouded their judgment of the lines between right and wrong.
 

Geriatrix

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They? As far as I know the majority of the mainstream already know these things.The muslims I know definitely know these things.
I'm talking about Muslims I've seen taking it upon themselves to "defend" the religion. They do certainly not follow those guidelines from what I can tell.

falcon786 said:
Thats great,how have you found what you know now differs to what you thought about islam before?
I didn't know much about it to begin with. It's much more structured and logical from what I anticipated. What still confuses me though is how the religion appears to teach one thing and its followers are seen to completely disregard its teachings or mangle it's interpretations to absurdity. But that's true for all religions I suppose.
 
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