Austria sues European Union, claiming natural gas and nuclear energy are not 'green'

konfab

Honorary Master
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
36,120
All gases have the ability to absorb Infrared Radiation (aka as heat).
You are using infrared radiation and heat interchangeably. This is incorrect.

You need to think about energy, specifically electromagnetic energy in the form of electromagnetic waves. Energy will be at different frequency bands of the waves, some of it will be UV, some of it will be visible, and some of it will be infrared. How this is distributed is what we will discussing next.

To start at the source of the problem. Lets talk about the sun:

solar_radiation_spectrum.jpeg

The sun pretty much is a perfect blackbody emitter of electromagnetic radiation. That is, it emits radiation across the spectrum almost perfectly as matched by the theoretical distribution of wavelength given by Planck's law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck's_law
This is given by the black line in the graph. Sunlight at the top of the atmosphere is given by the yellow graph.

Next part you need to understand how molecules absorb and emit electromagnetic energy. Electromagnetic energy consists of waves (for this purpose at least, I am not going into quantum mechanics here). To explain it briefly, molecules act as resonators for electromagnetic waves. Not to differently than a string of a musical instrument is to a sound wave. If you pluck a string of a musical instrument, it is effectively converting the energy of you plucking it, to an acoustic wave at the resonance frequency (or note) of that string. In a similar way, if you play back a note's resonance frequency it will absorb it and turn it into mechanical energy which you can visualise for as a vibration.
Molecules act in the same way for electromagnetic waves. If you agitate molecules with energy (like electricity), they will resonate at a bunch of different frequencies and produce an electromagnetic wave. If you agitate molecules with an electromagnetic wave that it will resonate at, you get energy out (which is usually heat).

Last thing you need to know before we put everything together is that the earth is also a blackbody emitter of radiation. Except it is at a much cooler temperature. Cooler temperatures means more energy is at longer wavelengths(more red). It is at these longer wavelengths where CO2 has its resonance frequencies.

So putting all of this together, you can see what is going on in the following figure.

co2_water_vapour.gif

Solar radiation comes in and as you can see, the CO2 bands don't absorb it much of it. When that energy is absorbed by the earth and then re-emitted, it falls into CO2's frequency spectrum and thus the energy is blocked by CO2 molecules instead of radiating back out into space.


To use an analogy, if we look at the visible spectrum, certain materials absorb difference frequencies of light at different rates. Materials that appear "white" to us do not absorb any energy from the visible spectrum, whilst materials that appear "black" absorb all the energy in the visible spectrum. This is why if you only shine visible light on a black or a white surface, the white surface will be cool whilst the black surface will be hot. This is because the black surface has absorbed the energy that was given to it. CO2 would be a greyish colour in the infrared spectrum, which means it absorbs infrared radiation.

This is about as pure physics as you get. And is why it is fundamentally incorrect to state that CO2 has nothing to do with global temperature. The physics says it must have something to do with it. The degree to which CO2 is responsible is a different story, and there are a million other variables at play.
 
Last edited:

porchrat

Honorary Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2008
Messages
34,278
All I am trying to say is , Electricity is a very basic Man Made Resource, and theres a good reason it was originally centralised constructed seeing it is involved in everything upwards. Now the problem is RESOURCES for 7 Billion plus in a closed system like Planet Earth.
The Earth is not a closed system.

I get your point though.
 

CataclysmZA

Executive Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
5,579
For the same reason that water vapor is not called one.

But water vapor is a different animal. It’s condensable – it can be changed from a gas into a liquid. Its concentration depends on the temperature of the atmosphere. This makes water vapor the only greenhouse gas whose concentration increases because the atmosphere is warming, and causes it to warm even more.
 

3WA

Honorary Master
Joined
Sep 25, 2012
Messages
19,693

CataclysmZA

Executive Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2010
Messages
5,579
Already been posted and thoroughly refuted by @Ponderer in post number, erm, oh wait, I can’t find where he refuted it.
Considering that an increase in the amount of CO2 in the air leading to a rise in global average temperatures was the subject of a paper in 1896, I'd like to see him refute it when Svante Arrhenius worked it out on paper, by hand, with no calculators, and no-one calling it a political issue.

 

Ponderer

Executive Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
9,741
You are using infrared radiation and heat interchangeably. This is incorrect.

You need to think about energy, specifically electromagnetic energy in the form of electromagnetic waves. Energy will be at different frequency bands of the waves, some of it will be UV, some of it will be visible, and some of it will be infrared. How this is distributed is what we will discussing next.

To start at the source of the problem. Lets talk about the sun:

View attachment 1399441

The sun pretty much is a perfect blackbody emitter of electromagnetic radiation. That is, it emits radiation across the spectrum almost perfectly as matched by the theoretical distribution of wavelength given by Planck's law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck's_law
This is given by the black line in the graph. Sunlight at the top of the atmosphere is given by the yellow graph.

Next part you need to understand how molecules absorb and emit electromagnetic energy. Electromagnetic energy consists of waves (for this purpose at least, I am not going into quantum mechanics here). To explain it briefly, molecules act as resonators for electromagnetic waves. Not to differently than a string of a musical instrument is to a sound wave. If you pluck a string of a musical instrument, it is effectively converting the energy of you plucking it, to an acoustic wave at the resonance frequency (or note) of that string. In a similar way, if you play back a note's resonance frequency it will absorb it and turn it into mechanical energy which you can visualise for as a vibration.
Molecules act in the same way for electromagnetic waves. If you agitate molecules with energy (like electricity), they will resonate at a bunch of different frequencies and produce an electromagnetic wave. If you agitate molecules with an electromagnetic wave that it will resonate at, you get energy out (which is usually heat).

Last thing you need to know before we put everything together is that the earth is also a blackbody emitter of radiation. Except it is at a much cooler temperature. Cooler temperatures means more energy is at longer wavelengths(more red). It is at these longer wavelengths where CO2 has its resonance frequencies.

So putting all of this together, you can see what is going on in the following figure.

View attachment 1399713

Solar radiation comes in and as you can see, the CO2 bands don't absorb it much of it. When that energy is absorbed by the earth and then re-emitted, it falls into CO2's frequency spectrum and thus the energy is blocked by CO2 molecules instead of radiating back out into space.


To use an analogy, if we look at the visible spectrum, certain materials absorb difference frequencies of light at different rates. Materials that appear "white" to us do not absorb any energy from the visible spectrum, whilst materials that appear "black" absorb all the energy in the visible spectrum. This is why if you only shine visible light on a black or a white surface, the white surface will be cool whilst the black surface will be hot. This is because the black surface has absorbed the energy that was given to it. CO2 would be a greyish colour in the infrared spectrum, which means it absorbs infrared radiation.

This is about as pure physics as you get. And is why it is fundamentally incorrect to state that CO2 has nothing to do with global temperature. The physics says it must have something to do with it. The degree to which CO2 is responsible is a different story, and there are a million other variables at play.
Nice post.
I did not expect you to follow through on your promise, but you did.

Note that I did not argue that CO2 levels play no part whatsoever in the "greenhouse effect".
What I said was that CO2's contribution to the "greenhouse effect" is in fact very small.
It is so small that it can be considered as being insignificant.

CO2 emissions are blamed for being the cause that the climate is changing.
This is simply not true.
It's propaganda.
It's not Science.
It's politics.
It's about money.
 

Ponderer

Executive Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2019
Messages
9,741

wingnut771

Honorary Master
Joined
Feb 15, 2011
Messages
28,146
Nice post.
I did not expect you to follow through on your promise, but you did.

Note that I did not argue that CO2 levels play no part whatsoever in the "greenhouse effect".
What I said was that CO2's contribution to the "greenhouse effect" is in fact very small.
It is so small that it can be considered as being insignificant.

CO2 emissions are blamed for being the cause that the climate is changing.
This is simply not true.
It's propaganda.
It's not Science.
It's politics.
It's about money.
1665647396297.png
 

ForceFate

Honorary Master
Joined
May 18, 2009
Messages
41,140
Yup - water vapour's contribution to the "greenhouse effect" dwarves that of CO2.
It's not even close.
You haven't shown how CO2 contribution is negligibly small. You haven't explained why we've seen increases with our increased use of fossil fuels.
 

ForceFate

Honorary Master
Joined
May 18, 2009
Messages
41,140
On what scale do you determine that?

Overall volume or on a per litre/cubic meter or what?
Venus has trace amounts of water vapour yet it has a runaway greenhouse effect. Huge percentage of its atmosphere is CO2.
 
Top