Backup batteries for load-shedding - you get what you pay for

Tariqe

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@RonSwanson, great post.
Some food for thought here, taking for example, our hobby, solar products industry, why is it that the manufacturer knowingly allows their product to be sold by a middle man to an end user and then puts it in fine print, has to be installed by an installer otherwise the warranty is void, what is an installer, there are no legal qualifications required to become one, i have met many installers who know less than most of us on this forum, heck, I know of licensed electricians that know less than I do, about their profession.
Not knocking Hubble in particular, applies to any manufacturer, what training have they given this so called “ installer “
 

itareanlnotani

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Powerforumstore sells a whole range of batteries, including Freedomwon, Pylontech, and Tesla, not only Hubble. I have also never found Steve to be pushy at all. He does make excellent recommendations, and with hindsight I have regretted not always following his advice in the past.
I like Steve, but not gonna lie, he is always trying to sell me Hubble batteries whenever I ask him for system quotes ;)
 

RonSwanson

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@RonSwanson, great post.
Some food for thought here, taking for example, our hobby, solar products industry, why is it that the manufacturer knowingly allows their product to be sold by a middle man to an end user and then puts it in fine print, has to be installed by an installer otherwise the warranty is void, what is an installer, there are no legal qualifications required to become one, i have met many installers who know less than most of us on this forum, heck, I know of licensed electricians that know less than I do, about their profession.
Not knocking Hubble in particular, applies to any manufacturer, what training have they given this so called “ installer “
Yes, the industry is constantly evolving, and different skills are needed, artisans who want to remain relevant have to constantly upskill. We saw the same thing in the auto industry, the IT industry, the watch industry and just about every industry affected by the silicon chip. Solar industry artisans require a very wide range of technical skills not normally found in the average household electrician. Apart from this, we have a brain drain, so many good sparkys (and plumbers and mechanics et al) have either left SA or are planning to, it all adds to the shortage of skilled people, and the reason why some have to pay a plumber R500 to replace a tap washer.

The manufacturers are acutely aware of this issue, because it increases product returns and warranty claims. I know that large solar suppliers like Segen do facilitate a lot of training for installers from vendors and OEMs, and Hubble definitely do training as well. Hubble also do not just sell to anyone AFAIK.

Your point on "what is an installer" remains though. I'd like to think that, in an ideal world, an installer would have at least a wireman's license, and has recently attended a few technical courses on the products in the design. Also that they have a couple of installs already under their belt. Currently, I suspect that training is provided to anyone who calls themselves an installer, there is no criteria. And in a way, there is nothing wrong with that, assuming that such an installer is enthusiastic, interested and capable, he will end up having a similar or even better knowledge to you and I as hobbyists. As long as he works under the close supervision of a certified wireman, that's also cool. It's one way of filling the huge gaps that we have. Not ideal, but in fairness, it's how many of us have started in IT, many years before univerities were offering degrees in computer science.
 

RonSwanson

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I like Steve, but not gonna lie, he is always trying to sell me Hubble batteries whenever I ask him for system quotes ;)
In fairness, that's probably due to the fact that he knows that you are a registered dealer on the Segen portal, it's one of the few things that he can sell you at a reasonable price. ;)
 

Arthur

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As everyone knows, batt life really depends on many factors, not the least being depth and frequency of discharge, quality of charge, batt/room temp, batt conditioning cycles, and so on.

I've had very good performance and lifespan from my 48 x 102Ah lead acid batts, installed 9.1 years ago. Only thrice has discharge been more than 20%, and never more than 30%. Ten years ago lithium-iron batts and associated charge circuitry were hugely expensive and I got a good deal on LAs from MLT Drives. They still see me through nightime/overcast loadshedding sessions, so replacement is not in immediate prospect.
 

itareanlnotani

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As everyone knows, batt life really depends on many factors, not the least being depth and frequency of discharge, quality of charge, batt/room temp, batt conditioning cycles, and so on.

I've had very good performance and lifespan from my 48 x 102Ah lead acid batts, installed 9.1 years ago. Only thrice has discharge been more than 20%, and never more than 30%. Ten years ago lithium-iron batts and associated charge circuitry were hugely expensive and I got a good deal on LAs from MLT Drives. They still see me through nightime/overcast loadshedding sessions, so replacement is not in immediate prospect.
You'll be happier when you eventually move to LFP.

A lot less space used, a lot less dangerous (no hydrogen outgassing!), a lot more usable capacity, and importantly, a lot less handholding needed.

We're probably the 2 longest users of solar on here. My original install was 11 years ago now!
 

RonSwanson

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As everyone knows, batt life really depends on many factors, not the least being depth and frequency of discharge, quality of charge, batt/room temp, batt conditioning cycles, and so on.

I've had very good performance and lifespan from my 48 x 102Ah lead acid batts, installed 9.1 years ago. Only thrice has discharge been more than 20%, and never more than 30%. Ten years ago lithium-iron batts and associated charge circuitry were hugely expensive and I got a good deal on LAs from MLT Drives. They still see me through nightime/overcast loadshedding sessions, so replacement is not in immediate prospect.
That's pretty good going, but as pointed out, you need a small room (and a hydrogen emissions certificate :laugh:) for 48 of them, plus all that copper cabling and busbars...
You're also a smoker, so I gather that you keep well away from them when lighting up?
 

Arthur

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You'll be happier when you eventually move to LFP.

A lot less space used, a lot less dangerous (no hydrogen outgassing!), a lot more usable capacity, and importantly, a lot less handholding needed.

We're probably the 2 longest users of solar on here. My original install was 11 years ago now!
Yes, of course my next installation will have LiFePO batts or whatever then's tech makes possible at similar pricepoint.

My first solar PV was at the farm in the Freestate Highlands, in 1999. That was a 2kVA MLT Drives full sinewave inverter with 4 x la batts. Its high-freq buzz was audible throughout the house. Tech has come some way since then. Used it only for lighting and occasional video on a CRT TV, and laptop.
 

Arthur

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That's pretty good going, but as pointed out, you need a small room (and a hydrogen emissions certificate :laugh:) for 48 of them, plus all that copper cabling and busbars...
You're also a smoker, so I gather that you keep well away from them when lighting up?
Hehe. Inverter and batteries are in a dedicated Utilities Room, with some ventilation, but no cooling. The installation met SABS specs at that time.
 

RonSwanson

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Hehe. Inverter and batteries are in a dedicated Utilities Room, with some ventilation, but no cooling. The installation met SABS specs at that time.
What about switchgear, it arcs (even just a little bit). In an adjacent room?
 

itareanlnotani

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Hehe. Inverter and batteries are in a dedicated Utilities Room, with some ventilation, but no cooling. The installation met SABS specs at that time.
Yup, you passed me your CoCT SSEG certification document at the time to use as a reference for my application, which I still appreciate you doing btw! :)
 

SauRoNZA

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@RonSwanson, great post.
Some food for thought here, taking for example, our hobby, solar products industry, why is it that the manufacturer knowingly allows their product to be sold by a middle man to an end user and then puts it in fine print, has to be installed by an installer otherwise the warranty is void, what is an installer, there are no legal qualifications required to become one, i have met many installers who know less than most of us on this forum, heck, I know of licensed electricians that know less than I do, about their profession.
Not knocking Hubble in particular, applies to any manufacturer, what training have they given this so called “ installer “

The installer whose offices I visited have an entire training room with at least one of each of the products they sell presumably with per brand training for all of their technical staff to learn the ins and outs of products and their installation in various combinations.

When I was there three guys were in session on e from the third party (thing it was SolarEdge) and the other two staff of the installer.

So it appears their “certified installer” badges do have some merit.
 

Tariqe

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@SauRoNZA , hopefully things will change over time, I have people call me ( word of mouth ) to help them with problems with their installations, some of the work is pretty bad to downright dangerous and this is work done by so called "installers "
 

SauRoNZA

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@SauRoNZA , hopefully things will change over time, I have people call me ( word of mouth ) to help them with problems with their installations, some of the work is pretty bad to downright dangerous and this is work done by so called "installers "

Yeah I’m sure there are very many fly by night self assigned “installers” like in most industries.

People always want to go cheap and don’t think 10 years ahead.

You get what you pay for at the end of the day.
 

Gnome

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From another post by the same OP, it is clear that he bought a 24V inverter that does not support comms with his Hubble AM4. Many forumites pointed this out to him, and also tried to assist him with alternatives in that post.
So the installer, whom Hubble supports, installed all that and it is the customer's fault?

I saw that thread on Powerforum.The OP posted a REEEEEEEEE! about having issues with his Hubble battery and bitching about the fact that Hubble want to deal with the installer / wholesaler and not him (the end-user). According to him, his installer had "disappeared". Now regardless of whether that is a good policy or not, Hubble have their reasons for wanting to operate that way, and they made it clear upfront more than 1 year ago. They train and deal with installers, not end users, because of potential legal liability.
Thus my assertion was correct. If you have a problem with your installer, they will tell you they have no obligation to support you or provide warranty. They never backed up their claim of "legal liability". Why you would sign yourself up for that is beyond me. Basically this company says they aren't willing to help you, only via an "installer". If an installer screws up, it is suddenly your problem. No support, no warranty.

The biggest problem with that model is, the OP did use one of their installers, they weren't willing to support it. So you are at the mercy of their whims, which if someone sends an email to their entire company saying, don't help this person, well that is really unprofessional.

Hubble then responded to the thread, on the very same day, and corrected the OP. Turns out that the OP actually had personal issues with his installer (no surprise here), and that he had not "disappeared" as the OP claimed, but rather that the OP was verbally abusive towards him, and therefore the installer was not prepared to assist him anymore. The installer had purchased the battery from a wholesaler and not from Hubble directly, but despite this, Hubble had gone out of their way to assist the OP, providing him with an alternative installer (as per his request) and telling him that he could bring the battery in, also including a free RIOT Cloudlink, which would enable them to support the battery. Hubble actually posted screenshots of the correspondence and ticket, which was awaiting a response from the OP (he clearly didn't get back to them, too busy with REEEEEEEE!) .
I followed the thread until it suddenly was deleted. Nobody ever posted evidence of verbal abuse. There was only the claim by Hubble, unsubstantiated (and the screenshot they posted was never rude). Which given that the install wasn't working correctly, is an easy out by the installer. They also claimed they would give him free RIOT CloudLink which he pointed out was not true, his claim was that they said he could buy it and they would support the RIOT CloudLink or something to that effect. But the OP made it clear no free offers were ever made. And I'm inclined to believe that given, why deny such an offer? I never recall them saying the guy wasn't an authorised installer. But let's say this installer "wasn't" authorised. Why side with the installer who you claim isn't authorised, rather than your customer? And how can you expect your customers to differentiate between who is "allowed" to sell your product and who isn't? You own the supply chain, that is on you as a business, NOT your customer.

You post this almost as an attack on me. Yet I wasn't involved in this at all beyond an opinion on their behaviour. I recommended their products until that thread. I don't own, nor install their gear. What is your involvement, do you own a Hubble product or install for them or work for them?. I only followed that thread and their response.

In my opinion, their response was not the way you should treat a customer. Their policy is similarly unrealistic. There is no way you can put a product on the market and then claim people who are selling it are unauthorised to sell it. Its your product FFS, you didn't do anything to prevent that situation! You put the onus on your customer to ensure your supply chain, that is insane. They put this policy in place to have an easy out. If they don't like the situation, they just send an email to their company saying deny support, no warranty. That isn't the kind of customer experience I'd like to see from a company.

Every person must decide for themselves what they think. But as a customer, I would take a wide birth until they have clear remediation steps for bad installers and this denying of warranty situation is unacceptable.
 
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Gnome

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Always three sides to a story
Indeed but the part not in dispute is that they are willing to deny support and warranty if the installer is unhappy with you. That they will not help you except through your installer. So keep that in mind when you buy their products.

Believe who you want. But certain facts aren't in dispute. My general policy is, if someone is involved in the sale of a product, you need to be careful looking at their words and look at the outcome. Politicians & sales people have beautiful words. Time will tell on this one obviously because there are bound to either be more such situations or less.
 
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maxxis

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Indeed but the part not in dispute is that they are willing to deny support and warranty if the installer is unhappy with you. That they will not help you except through your installer. So keep that in mind when you buy their products.

Believe who you want. But certain facts aren't in dispute. My general policy is, if someone is involved in the sale of a product, you need to be careful looking at their words and look at the outcome. Politicians & sales people have beautiful words. Time will tell on this one obviously because there are bound to either be more such situations or less.
Certainly not my experience.

My system was installed by someone outside of their network and I have full backup and support.
 

Gnome

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Certainly not my experience.

My system was installed by someone outside of their network and I have full backup and support.
So again, you are saying that to me. But that was THEIR statement (Hubble) not mine. It is the kind of policy that makes it convenient to fall back on if you have a "problem" install/client/etc.

Anyway I don't care anymore, I'm not in any way affiliated with anyone in any of this.
I just happen to work in a company where treating customers is super important and their way of opting out and sending an email like that is not something I would stay quiet about in our company.

Whether they do that again is up in the air.
 
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