Backup batteries for load-shedding - you get what you pay for

[RonSwanson]

So the installer, whom Hubble supports, installed all that and it is the customer's fault?

Whenever did I say that? I am merely trying to be as objective as possible about this, and you are coming up with a strawman argument.

Thus my assertion was correct. If you have a problem with your installer, they will tell you they have no obligation to support you or provide warranty. They never backed up their claim of "legal liability". Why you would sign yourself up for that is beyond me. Basically this company says they aren't willing to help you, only via an "installer". If an installer screws up, it is suddenly your problem. No support, no warranty.

I am not sure that I understand exactly what you are getting at. A company manufactures batteries that are extremely dangerous if installed and operated incorrectly (we keep hearing from many "experts" how these terribly unstable NMC batteries just spontaneously combust, poof and they are gone. ).
In order to protect themselves, the company adopts a risk management strategy and resultant policy to 1. train all installers in the correct selection, installation and operation of the batteries and 2. only deal with trained installers, not end-users, who can claim ignorance, and then sue the company (because there was no label saying that its a bad idea to share a bathtub with a lithium battery).
It's called enterprise risk management and something every responsible and reasonable corporate citizen would do.

The biggest problem with that model is, the OP did use one of their installers, they weren't willing to support it. So you are at the mercy of their whims, which if someone sends an email to their entire company saying, don't help this person, well that is really unprofessional.

It was the OP's choice to use the installer, the OEM may have trained the installer, but had nothing to do with the OP's choice of installer.

Furthermore, it is incorrect to state that "they were not willing to support it". If I recall correctly, they place a screenshot from their ticketing system which logged the exact date that the OP raised the issue, and their actions. They recommended an alternative installer, also gave an option for the OP to bring it in, and offered a free RIOT Cloudlink so that they could monitor it. Please, do not make me have to dig into my browser's cache to find it.

I followed the thread until it suddenly was deleted. Nobody ever posted evidence of verbal abuse. There was only the claim by Hubble, unsubstantiated (and the screenshot they posted was never rude). Which given that the install wasn't working correctly, is an easy out by the installer. They also claimed they would give him free RIOT CloudLink which he pointed out was not true, his claim was that they said he could buy it and they would support the RIOT CloudLink or something to that effect. But the OP made it clear no free offers were ever made. And I'm inclined to believe that given, why deny such an offer?

The verbal abuse that the OP meted out to the installer was presented by the OEM as a fact in the thread. The OP never denied it, rather, his angry response was to dox the installer.
On the balance of probabilities, which is all that you and I have, I would be inclined to believe the OEM, because the OP already proved himself a liar when he said that his installer "just disappeared" / "went AWOL". I am not saying that this was good behaviour by the installer ( who I do believe had a whole lot to answer for), but I am trying to be as objective as possible about this.

You post this almost as an attack on me. Yet I wasn't involved in this at all beyond an opinion on their behaviour. I recommended their products until that thread. I don't own, nor install their gear. What is your involvement, do you own a Hubble product or install for them or work for them?. I only followed that thread and their response.

No my friend, quite the contrary, I have an enormous appreciation for all of your forum contributions, both on MyBB as well as Powerforum, and I actually regard you highly on most technical matters regarding energy storage and management. In fact, I am very happy to be able to learn many things from you. But just because you are technically astute in that area, does not make you right, every time, and on all matters. In this matter your stance is incorrect, as is your assumption that I am somehow involved with Hubble. As for you allegation of "an attack", that's pretty ridiculous, w hat possible reason would I have to "attack" you? I am merely giving my own (hopefully objective) perspectives, which I have tempered with a good dose of circumspection. If I correct you, please do not see it as an attack. We all have things to learn, I learn from you, you learn from me.

And as stated before to that obnoxious creature @The_Troubler, many many times over, I have no interest financial or otherwise in Hubble, and I (regrettably) do not even own one myself. The closest that I ever came to owning one was recommending that my HOA purchase two Hubble S-100s batteries for the guardhouse.

In my opinion, their response was not the way you should treat a customer. Their policy is similarly unrealistic. They put this policy in place to have an easy out. If they don't like the situation, they just send an email to their company saying deny support, no warranty. That isn't the kind of customer experience I'd like to see from a company.

Maybe they aren't perfect, they recruit their staff from planet earth. I, for one, would not employ a lady with a shrieky voice in customer services.

Indeed but the part not in dispute is that they are willing to deny support and warranty if the installer is unhappy with you. That they will not help you except through your installer. So keep that in mind when you buy their products.

Not true, as stated before, the OEM did display willingness to work with the customer.
/raises the sign saying "Not an attack"

Believe who you want. But certain facts aren't in dispute. My general policy is, if someone is involved in the sale of a product, you need to be careful looking at their words and look at the outcome. Politicians & sales people have beautiful words. Time will tell on this one obviously because there are bound to either be more such situations or less.

Yep, no shrieky voices, agreed.

Ostensibly, from the stories told by third parties, the installer had some liability, and I am not disputing that. I also want to raise the fact that the installer did not have the opportunity to express his side of the story yet. The OEM did indicate that the installer was verbally abused by the OP, and this was not disputed by the OP, the response from the OP at that point was to dox the installer.

In the absence of blatant fraud, the customer, in any transaction, has at least some accountability and liability, hence the legal maxim "caveat emptor" or "buyer beware". The customer may enjoy portraying himself as the victim, but the reality is that he needs to accept at least some responsibility for his decision to make a purchase. Sometimes the customer wants two left shoes because a left and a right is too expensive, and the shoe salesman obliges. and warns the customer, but the customer complains of sore feet the next day. Is the shoe salesman at fault? If it really was fraud, or misrepresentation, then there is the CPA, and the SAPS, he can follow due process there.

IMHO, as an objective observer, and on the balance of probabilities, the OP made a poor purchase decision. Instead of lodging a dispute with the CPA (as he did indicate in his post), he chooses to expend his energies through the display of consistently poor anger management and social skills.The installer clearly was a seoP if he recommended a crappy inverter without battery comms, then again, this is what the OP stated, and we know that he is a liar.
Simply put, the OP made a fool of himself. It is rare, but indeed we do see other examples of this, TheWorst4x4xfar , Jaco Van der Merwe and his bent Isuzu comes to mind.

 

[maxxis]

So again, you are saying that to me. But that was THEIR statement (Hubble) not mine. It is the kind of policy that makes it convenient to fall back on if you have a "problem" install/client/etc.

Anyway I don't care anymore, I'm not in any way affiliated with anyone in any of this.
I just happen to work in a company where treating customers is super important and their way of opting out and sending an email like that is not something I would stay quiet about in our company.

Whether they do that again is up in the air.

Don’t ****ing buy Hubble then. Nobody is trying to convince you.

That thread went for a ball of **** and was deleted because of it. We won’t know the true story. The OP was burned by his own doing or his installer. All I saw there was the weeewaaaweeewaaa rage.

 

[RonSwanson]

So again, you are saying that to me. But that was THEIR statement (Hubble) not mine. It is the kind of policy that makes it convenient to fall back on if you have a "problem" install/client/etc.

Anyway I don't care anymore, I'm not in any way affiliated with anyone in any of this.
I just happen to work in a company where treating customers is super important and their way of opting out and sending an email like that is not something I would stay quiet about in our company.

Whether they do that again is up in the air.

And good for you, and for your company. In the service industry, customers are not always right (they are very often wrong), but they are king. We need to treat them well.

At the same time, we need to be able to manage their expectations, and be in a position to gently and nicely, but firmly, persuade them otherwise when they are wrong.

Some people naturally have these skills (amongst others), in the real world. You will find them being respected chairpersons of boards, successful undercover agent handlers, highly successful police detectives, good SWAT team leaders, platoon commanders and NSRI boat skippers, and even some high-ranking politicians. They know what makes people tick, know what motivates them. They know when to speak and when to keep quiet. I call these skills "social skills", it's all about achieving a goal, and an acceptable outcome for all.

I am also learning these skills myself, I used to be very bad at it. I suck a little bit less at it these days, because I consciously try to do things that I would not normally do, like keeping my mouth shut.

 

[Gnome]

Don’t ****ing buy Hubble then. Nobody is trying to convince you.

That thread went for a ball of **** and was deleted because of it. We won’t know the true story. The OP was burned by his own doing or his installer. All I saw there was the weeewaaaweeewaaa rage.

Calm down ok, everything is going to be ok. You don't have to respond when you can't refute an argument on logic.

And good for you, and for your company. In the service industry, customers are not always right (they are very often wrong), but they are king. We need to treat them well.

At the same time, we need to be able to manage their expectations, and be in a position to gently and nicely, but firmly, persuade them otherwise when they are wrong.

Some people naturally have these skills (amongst others), in the real world. You will find them being respected chairpersons of boards, successful undercover agent handlers, highly successful police detectives, good SWAT team leaders, platoon commanders and NSRI boat skippers, and even some high-ranking politicians. They know what makes people tick, know what motivates them. They know when to speak and when to keep quiet. I call these skills "social skills", it's all about achieving a goal, and an acceptable outcome for all.

I am also learning these skills myself, I used to be very bad at it. I suck a little bit less at it these days, because I consciously try to do things that I would not normally do, like keeping my mouth shut.

Except that unlike you I don't believe the customer was in the wrong here.

Situation
1) The installer isn't vetted by them (do not recall them saying that). How was he able to provide their product? If that is their policy, they need to enforce a strict supply chain. Why aren't stepping in and preventing this from being possible? Most importantly, why is the onus on the customer to ensure their installer is "allowed" to sell Hubble. And lastly they don't provide a mechanism to vet which installers they consider legit.
2) The installer is vetted by them. Why aren't they stepping in on an obviously incorrect install?

The customer being "rude" or unhappy is months after this purchase and is a direct consequence of the installer and their inability to control their supply chain. So yes, it is on them. Months after problems with a product that is super expensive will frustrate a LOT of people.

In my company, generally we accept that if you find yourself saying the customer did something wrong, you need to take a very hard look at how you set it up so that the customer was able to "use it wrong". In this case it doesn't take much to see where this went wrong. A product they sell landed in the hands of a customer through what they may/may not claim is the wrong channel. But that is on them, if they want to enforce that kind of policy, that is their job, not their customer (unless the customer stole it).

New products should never be subject to caveat emptor.

That post you linked to clearly shows the guy got the installer in, the installer told him he doesn't need a comms cable, etc. You call it out as his fault. It isn't, it's on the installer. And if the installer isn't legit, then he should not possible have been able to supply that product. And if he is legit, they should step in, send another installer and rectify the situation. Not have a screaming match with a customer and then double down posting online about it being the "customer's" fault. That is not how you run a company. At least not one you want to have a good reputation. Swallow the pride, fix the situation. If he misused the product we would be having a different discussion. But this is a layman that bought a product.

 

[Willie Trombone]

"10 year warranty"
Both recommend Pylontech but Pylontech offers 5 year warranty...

 

[Willie Trombone]

hu

Hubble also good

Hubble are LiNMC
Most others are LiFePo4. Was reading that LiNMC are more often used in thr vehicle industry.

 

[Willie Trombone]

Certainly not my experience.

My system was installed by someone outside of their network and I have full backup and support.

Have you had to replace under warranty?

 

[Willie Trombone]

@SauRoNZA , hopefully things will change over time, I have people call me ( word of mouth ) to help them with problems with their installations, some of the work is pretty bad to downright dangerous and this is work done by so called "installers "

I think one of the other issues is that there are installers with AC backgrounds bit still green with DC and backup systems. These systems are far more modular than many of the previous generation of backup power systems.

 

[itareanlnotani]

Hubble are LiNMC
Most others are LiFePo4. Was reading that LiNMC are more often used in thr vehicle industry.

Less than you'd think.

LFP has pretty much taken over in EV's (and static applications).
Zero cobalt use, which is an issue for NMC as child mining in zaire is apparently not condoned anymore.

Solid state batteries will come along at some point in the next 5 years, and mix things up again, but LFP is currently the main battery in use for vehicles.

 

[Willie Trombone]

Less than you'd think.

LFP has pretty much taken over in EV's (and static applications).
Zero cobalt use, which is an issue for NMC as child mining in zaire is apparently not condoned anymore.

Solid state batteries will come along at some point in the next 5 years, and mix things up again, but LFP is currently the main battery in use for vehicles.

So Hubble uses child labor up the chain?
Oh wait, DRC hasn't been Zaire for around 25 years lol.

 

[RonSwanson]

Situation
1) The installer isn't vetted by them (do not recall them saying that). How was he able to provide their product? If that is their policy, they need to enforce a strict supply chain. Why aren't stepping in and preventing this from being possible? Most importantly, why is the onus on the customer to ensure their installer is "allowed" to sell Hubble. And lastly they don't provide a mechanism to vet which installers they consider legit.
2) The installer is vetted by them. Why aren't they stepping in on an obviously incorrect install?

The installer is trained by the OEM, nothing more, nothing less. The OEM has no control over what the installer does.

The customer being "rude" or unhappy is months after this purchase and is a direct consequence of the installer and their inability to control their supply chain. So yes, it is on them. Months after problems with a product that is super expensive will frustrate a LOT of people.

Yes, we agree on that, the installer has a lot to answer for, and I am sure that he will have a story about the OP too.

In my company, generally we accept that if you find yourself saying the customer did something wrong, you need to take a very hard look at how you set it up so that the customer was able to "use it wrong". In this case it doesn't take much to see where this went wrong. A product they sell landed in the hands of a customer through what they may/may not claim is the wrong channel. But that is on them, if they want to enforce that kind of policy, that is their job, not their customer (unless the customer stole it).

Good for you, in a perfect world, maybe. What's your company's take on staff with shrieky voices?

New products should never be subject to caveat emptor.

Here you being somewhat idealistic, you are expecting the OEM to protect the customer from himself. It's a legal maxim for good reason.

That post you linked to clearly shows the guy got the installer in, the installer told him he doesn't need a comms cable, etc. You call it out as his fault. It isn't, it's on the installer. And if the installer isn't legit, then he should not possible have been able to supply that product. And if he is legit, they should step in, send another installer and rectify the situation. Not have a screaming match with a customer and then double down posting online about it being the "customer's" fault. That is not how you run a company. At least not one you want to have a good reputation. Swallow the pride, fix the situation. If he misused the product we would be having a different discussion. But this is a layman that bought a product.

Once again, we have agreed on this point, the installer needs to take some blame. Yet the OP verbally abused the installer, making it impossible for him to make good, and then went on a REEEEEE! to the OEM, and a REEEEEE! on Powerforum, and when being assisted by the OEM didn't even bother responding, too busy with REEEEEEE!

I find that I have to repeat myself a lot. If you have no new points, let's call it a day?

 

[itareanlnotani]

So Hubble uses child labor up the chain?
Oh wait, DRC hasn't been Zaire for around 25 years lol.

Hahaha, funny.

Some thing for you to read -

The DRC Mining Industry: Child Labor and Formalization of Small-Scale Mining

www.wilsoncenter.org

Apple and Google named in US lawsuit over Congolese child cobalt mining deaths

Dell, Microsoft and Tesla also among tech firms named in case brought by families of children killed or injured while mining in DRC

www.theguardian.com

‘Like slave and master’: DRC miners toil for 30p an hour to fuel electric cars

Congolese workers describe a system of abuse, precarious employment and paltry wages – all to power the green vehicle revolution

www.theguardian.com

Automakers work to ensure cobalt for EV batteries isn't mined by children

The Responsible Sourcing Blockchain Network seeks to bring transparency to the origins of cobalt and other raw materials

www.detroitnews.com

Subscribe to read | Financial Times

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication

www.ft.com

It is (or was an issue) for car and other manufacturers are they were being sued by human rights groups for using NMC. Moving to LFP has removed that concern.

Again, cobalt is no longer an ingredient used in the majority of batteries, as they have moved to cheaper solutions like LFP. LFP isn't as dense powerwise as NMC (which is the lithium chemistry in the Hubble), but it is quite a bit cheaper to produce, and doesn't have the same problems with child mining. LFP also has a longer lifetime, and is the safest of the currently produced Lithium batteries. LFP also doesn't contain expensive metals. China is currently the worlds largest producer of LFP.