Ban on alcohol and cigarettes: Who owns your body?

lexity

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<argumentation ethics diversion here, i.e. nothing to do with self-ownership per se>

Nope son, again sorry stop reaching.

I am using the following definition for state
Go back and read what I said.

I didn't say you used that definition, I said 'IF' you use this as a definition... bla bla bla.

You can't be 'reaching', when using a conditional statement.

</argumentation ethics diversion here, i.e. nothing to do with self-ownership per se>
 

ToxicBunny

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<argumentation ethics diversion here, i.e. nothing to do with self-ownership per se>



Go back and read what I said.

I didn't say you used that definition, I said 'IF' you use this as a definition... bla bla bla.

You can't be 'reaching', when using a conditional statement.

</argumentation ethics diversion here, i.e. nothing to do with self-ownership per se>
Well then I corrected your attempted reach, I wasn't using the bullshyte loaded definition you put forward.
 

lexity

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I hate to break this to you, the state deciding for you has been the norm for hundreds of years... its not new or fancy, its the way things have been.
If you use the definition of state: 'a monopoly on the use of violence, in a given geographical territory,' you are 100% correct.

But if there had been no illuminating experiments in resistance to the state to learn from, there would be no point in having this discussion.
Nope son, again sorry stop reaching.

I am using the following definition for state

[a nation or territory considered as an organized political community under one government.]
Okay. I'll use your definition then.

Has the state, in your view, been deciding for the individual, with his consent?
 

Solarion

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That's not a bad question.

But you personally agree to go into the military, right? So why would you need to discard self-ownership to join the military?

Military service is just that... a service. Like all services the underlying assumption is that you think it's a worthwhile endeavor. So you join it.

Legally mandated conscription is a form of slavery. It's what you do when you don't have enough people to defend your particular world view/values.... i.e. you threaten them with violence.

Completely unnecessary.
Many women in the US are legally challenging the government to be on an equal footing with men with regards to conscription as they are currently excluded.

That's quite telling because even though some might see conscription as slavery, there are many who still want the right to be treated equally because it's their body.

It's all about choice, even if it's a bad one, we as humans still want the right to be treated fairly.

Banning smoking and criminalizing smokers is not being treated fairly.
 

lexity

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Many women in the US are legally challenging the government to be on an equal footing with men with regards to conscription as they are currently excluded.

That's quite telling because even though some might see conscription as slavery, there are many who still want the right to be treated equally because it's their body.

It's all about choice, even if it's a bad one, we as human still want the right to choose.
Yes, I have no problem with equality under the law. That's not the issue with your example. My opinion on the point you raise is simply this: Military service is a useful service. Why would anyone think they have to use threats of violence to conscript someone else, male or female. Why not get their consent?

I suspect it's because they think their ideas are not popular enough. But instead of going down the route of argumentation, a peaceful act, they often react and go the violence route. This is the essence of a state. It's not a negotiating instrument. It may appear to be, on a diplomatic level, but it's not really. It is there to force others to do things they otherwise wouldn't do.

Forcing someone to do something with their body is illegal but it seems it's not illegal for everyone.... which is the problem.

Bad choices are fine, but only where others are not forced to pay the cost of the bad consequences.
 

Solarion

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Yes, I have no problem with equality under the law. That's not the issue with your example. My opinion on the point you raise is simply this: Military service is a useful service. Why would anyone think they have to use threats of violence to conscript someone else, male or female. Why not get their consent?

I suspect it's because they think their ideas are not popular enough. But instead of going down the route of argumentation, a peaceful act, they often react and go the violence route. This is the essence of a state. It's not a negotiating instrument. It may appear to be, on a diplomatic level, but it's not really. It is there to force others to do things they otherwise wouldn't do.

Forcing someone to do something with their body is illegal but it seems it's not illegal for everyone.... which is the problem.

Bad choices are fine, but only where others are not forced to pay the cost of the bad consequences.
Sure conscription is unethical but it is what it is. It's just another example of the state forcing it's political will onto it's people. 11 million odd people have been forcefully conscripted into Dlamini-Zuma's personal war on tobacco.

On that train of thought, the ANC has signed up the entire country to the draft of their luxurious and wasteful expenditures. You, I and everyone on this forum was conscripted into the service of corruption 1994 to wage war on the economy. The smoking ban is just one battle in that war that millions are being forced to fight.

So far it looks like we are winning :confused:
 

AlphaJohn

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Sure conscription is unethical but it is what it is. It's just another example of the state forcing it's political will onto it's people. 11 million odd people have been forcefully conscripted into Dlamini-Zuma's personal war on tobacco.

On that train of thought, the ANC has signed up the entire country to the draft of their luxurious and wasteful expenditures. You, I and everyone on this forum was conscripted into the service of corruption 1994 to wage war on the economy. The smoking ban is just one battle in that war that millions are being forced to fight.

So far it looks like we are winning :confused:
10 999 999...

Im still smoking :p
 

lexity

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Joined
Jan 31, 2020
Messages
780
Sure conscription is unethical but it is what it is. It's just another example of the state forcing it's political will onto it's people. 11 million odd people have been forcefully conscripted into Dlamini-Zuma's personal war on tobacco.

On that train of thought, the ANC has signed up the entire country to the draft of their luxurious and wasteful expenditures. You, I and everyone on this forum was conscripted into the service of corruption 1994 to wage war on the economy. The smoking ban is just one battle in that war that millions are being forced to fight.

So far it looks like we are winning :confused:
Well said.

You know the state likes to portray itself as being pro-secession i.e. the majority in an existing voting area(not sure to which level). But in principle if they are pro-secession on even a slightly smaller majority, they should be in favor of a minority session.

How many people are interested in drawing a line at obvious misrepresentation - or even non-representation - is besides the point.

There is no reason anyone can come up with for opposing self-funded secession.

I would imagine that even a required citizen national debt settlement, would be insufficient to put off those fed up with the charade. Since economically a new sovereign that is strongly protective of private property would be extremely attractive to those who have learned how existing tax-havens have their problems.

But having said that, I could see statists thinking to themselves: well, perhaps you could pay off a measly R100k per head... but we can 'fix' that... here comes the next 100 R zillion IMF loan. See if you can pay that off at interest, per head.
 

lexity

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eg2505

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Sure conscription is unethical but it is what it is. It's just another example of the state forcing it's political will onto it's people. 11 million odd people have been forcefully conscripted into Dlamini-Zuma's personal war on tobacco.

On that train of thought, the ANC has signed up the entire country to the draft of their luxurious and wasteful expenditures. You, I and everyone on this forum was conscripted into the service of corruption 1994 to wage war on the economy. The smoking ban is just one battle in that war that millions are being forced to fight.

So far it looks like we are winning :confused:
true, but one can also say that voting or not voting also creates and can solve the same issues.
corruption and the extravagance of the ANC is due to people voting them in.

so to all the mad laws about booze and cigarettes, people agree with them because they voted the ANC into power.
you might not agree, but that's not the point, Democracy isn't about who is right, its about who has the most votes.

so enough people voted to ban booze and cigarettes, and didn't complain.

we can argue about it till the cows come home, but in a democracy, what one individual says is meaningless.
if you can convince a group, different story.
 

Solarion

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true, but one can also say that voting or not voting also creates and can solve the same issues.
corruption and the extravagance of the ANC is due to people voting them in.

so to all the mad laws about booze and cigarettes, people agree with them because they voted the ANC into power.
you might not agree, but that's not the point, Democracy isn't about who is right, its about who has the most votes.

so enough people voted to ban booze and cigarettes, and didn't complain.

we can argue about it till the cows come home, but in a democracy, what one individual says is meaningless.
if you can convince a group, different story.
Then it stands to reason that all of those who keep voting for the ANC despite knowing full well their abuses of power and rampant corruption, are enabling those acts to take place and guilty not by association but by aiding and abetting crimes against the state.

tl'dr: they don't have a leg to stand on to complain.
 

Spliffcat

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5,801
My every morning mantra.
"Fek the corrupt, stealing, human rights abusive cvnts running this country."
 

lexity

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Jan 31, 2020
Messages
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... The smoking ban is just one battle in that war that millions are being forced to fight.

So far it looks like we are winning :confused:
Weening & wining (Monday - Thursday only), so not winning but whining.

More 'why'ing is called for, I think.
 

Solarion

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Weening & wining (Monday - Thursday only), so not winning but whining.

More 'why'ing is called for, I think.
Honestly I think even if we all knew the why it wouldn't make a difference. People like those VBS ministers will just get their jobs back. People like Zandile Gumede will just carry on drawing a salary, shifted into a nice new department as if nothing happened.

The corruption is so blatant and honest and open. They do it because they know they can that's why.
 

lexity

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Messages
780
Honestly I think even if we all knew the why it wouldn't make a difference. People like those VBS ministers will just get their jobs back. People like Zandile Gumede will just carry on drawing a salary, shifted into a nice new department as if nothing happened.

The corruption is so blatant and honest and open. They do it because they know they can that's why.
Have you heard of the tale of the Emperor's new clothes?

People are afraid to appear stupid, so they don't question the narrative. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Emperor's_New_Clothes

The swindlers did it because they knew they could, that's why.
 
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